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tmontana

Packing problems

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To combin the best parts of Pro-packing and psycho-packing .....

I do most of a Pro-pack (over my shoulder) and gently lay it on the floor.
Then I kneel on the bottom part of the canopy (to prevent the slider or steering lines from wandering).
Then I push the bridle-attachment off to one side and start rolling from the top of the canopy.
When I have most of the canopy rolled, I slide one corner of the lip of the bag under a knee and shove the rolled canopy into the top corner of the bag.
Repeat on the other side.
Stow lines in locking rubber bands.

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riggerrob

Only 5 things are "must do" when packing mains.
All the rest are "should do" or "could do."

Must do: 1- lines straight
2- brakes set
3- slider all the way up
4- closing loop snug
5- bridle routed correctly



I'd like to add a 6th must do

6- cock your pilot chute :ph34r:

Not sure if you've seen this but Gary Peek made a video of "outrageous" pack jobs looks like he packed a few slammers in there but here it is :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i16HryVyRaI

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Learn why you are packing. This may sound simple, but I've asked people for 40 years why they do that and most of the time they answer, cause that's the way they were taught. When you learn the why, the how will be easy.
Pack with you eyes closed. 39 years ago I made the statement I could pack in the dark. People took the bet and I got locked in a bathroom with no light and a canopy that had been cut loose from the harness and tangled. I packed it, came out wearing the rig and was the only person at the US nats that was sure it would be fine. Made some beer money too.
U only make 2 jumps: the first one for some weird reason and the last one that you lived through. The rest are just filler.
scr 316

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riggerrob

To combin the best parts of Pro-packing and psycho-packing .....

I do most of a Pro-pack (over my shoulder) and gently lay it on the floor.
Then I kneel on the bottom part of the canopy (to prevent the slider or steering lines from wandering).
Then I push the bridle-attachment off to one side and start rolling from the top of the canopy.
When I have most of the canopy rolled, I slide one corner of the lip of the bag under a knee and shove the rolled canopy into the top corner of the bag.
Repeat on the other side.
Stow lines in locking rubber bands.



So you roll it without flipping the cocoon over? (tail seam on the outside of roll?)
Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!”

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Yes, if you roll with the center (top skin) seam and orange warning label around the outside, you contain the entire canopy within one sheet of fabric: the center-cell top-skin.
That single sheet of fabric is much easier to steer into the d-bag.

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Don't worry, you're not alone :) I had a hard time learning too. The class I took at the DZ was useless (they taught me on the SOS system, so I didn't even know what to do with the PC lol).

So I asked my husband to teach me to pack. I had the same issues as you with lines and flaking, so he told me this: "don't worry, the rule of the thumb is lines go inside, fabric goes on the outside, you're throwing it at 120mph wind, it will open". It worked for me each time :)

I stopped stressing out about it being packed wrong or not neat enough. Just make sure that 1) slider is packed correctly (extremely important), 2) lines go inside, fabric outside 3) PC is cocked 4) bridle/pin is routed correctly. These are my 4 checkpoints for an airworthy pack job.

With some practice (say 10 pack jobs, the first couple supervised by my husband), it started making more sense to me, and the lines started to align by themselves. With more practice, my pack jobs got faster and neater, and take less effort. Now my pack jobs are pretty neat and almost effortless :)

So it will get better, I promise! Find a friend you can trust and ask for help/supervision. Most people I know didn't learn at a class but from a friend. I don't think I know a single person who just went to the class and "got it" and just started packing by themselves from then on.

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agaace

The class I took at the DZ was useless (they taught me on the SOS system, so I didn't even know what to do with the PC lol).



SOS is actually the single-handle, integrated cutaway + reserve system they have on some student rigs. You're right it's useless (worse, it's dangerous, and thus banned in DK at least), but it has nothing to do with packing mains :) Did you mean static line-style, spring-loaded pilot chute closed with ripcord when packed for manual activation?
"Skydivers are highly emotional people. They get all excited about their magical black box full of mysterious life saving forces."

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mathrick

SOS is actually the single-handle, integrated cutaway + reserve system they have on some student rigs. You're right it's useless (worse, it's dangerous, and thus banned in DK at least)



Sorry, thread drift ahead:

Can you say more about why you think SOS is dangerous?

Mark

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It teaches students, during their most impressionable time, a system that's completely different from what they'll be using for the rest of their skydiving life. I've read at least one fatality report where there was circumstantial evidence that the jumper (a highly experienced one) reverted to the SOS she was trained on in high-stress, quick-reaction situation.
"Skydivers are highly emotional people. They get all excited about their magical black box full of mysterious life saving forces."

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I agree that switching procedures isn't ideal but that doesn't make the system dangerous but merely needs additional training on conversion to two handled system.

I was taught on front and back gear but have adjusted quite safely to a two handled piggyback system. As have I transition to tandem system with different procedures. Any change requires a lot of practice to change process but can be handled safely .

As for packing student gear , its the same way to flake and bag canopy. (whether single or dual handle system) Only difference is pilot chute and activation, is ripcord and static line configuration. Just as a throw out or pullout system are different and requires a little bit of additional training on how to close containers. Just as different containers require different ways of closing.

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Experienced jumpers switching to necessarily different gear used for different things is one thing, making students switch to different gear for no reason whatsoever the moment they get their own gear (or perhaps the moment they're done with AFF and get generic rental gear) is an awful, dangerous idea. What, pray tell, is gained by giving students instruction for gear they won't use, that will kill them on the gear they will? Why make students go through "a lot of practice to change process" right after they got down their procedures when you could spend that time on reinforcing the right process from the very beginning? About the only thing you could cite as an advantage for SOS is that it makes it impossible to fire a reserve into deployed main without cutting away, but it's more than offset by the fact that, should the jumper use the same handle they were taught to on the actual gear every sports jumper in the world uses, it will do just that -- fire the reserve into the main without cutting away.

There is already a "single operation" system in common use applicable for students, it's called RSL (with or without a MARD). Which has the features of the SOS, but not its deadly problems. But the actual single-handle SOS systems are misguided, and at least DFU agrees by banning them for student use.
"Skydivers are highly emotional people. They get all excited about their magical black box full of mysterious life saving forces."

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The learning obstacle you describe is called "interference." It occurs when similar actions produce different results. For SOS systems that simply attach cutaway cables to a normally-situated ripcord handle, interference is a problem.

There is at least one SOS system that does not use a conventional ripcord handle, and does not suffer from interference. That system is in use at the US Air Force Academy, which has used it successfully for decades, as well as some civilian dzs.

I would be cautious about drawing conclusions from anecdotes. Although there might be cases where reversion to SOS-style cutaway/reserve deployment procedures has led to injury or death, there may be other cases where out-of-sequence or improperly performed two-handle procedures have also led to injury or death.

Mark

edited for typo

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I agree its not ideal but there is nothing inherently wrong with SOS. The manufacturers still produce the rigs, the USPA still permits it and i haven't seen a lot of issues with it.

Students typically use spring loaded pilot chutes in SL but we convert them to throw out. Some methods such as pilot chute assist are not used in the UK but that doesn't mean its any more dangerous when properly practised.

If it was so universal negative and dangerous I would like to think the manufacturers would stop making the gear and the method removed as an approved student equipment. Neither of which happens, so perhaps its more an opinion rather than fact. I can produce statistics that more people die on two handled systems than on SOS but that would just be skewing with statistics.

For the record, I prefer students to be trained with two handles.

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mark

There is at least one SOS system that does not use a conventional ripcord handle, and does not suffer from interference. That system is in use at the US Air Force Academy, which has used it successfully for decades, as well as some civilian dzs.



I'm interested now, do you have any pictures or description of how it's built? I still think it's better to train people with gear they will actually be using, but at least here it's real pros and cons one can weigh against each other.
"Skydivers are highly emotional people. They get all excited about their magical black box full of mysterious life saving forces."

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skytribe

I agree its not ideal but there is nothing inherently wrong with SOS. The manufacturers still produce the rigs, the USPA still permits it and i haven't seen a lot of issues with it.

Students typically use spring loaded pilot chutes in SL but we convert them to throw out. Some methods such as pilot chute assist are not used in the UK but that doesn't mean its any more dangerous when properly practised.



DFU bans them though. USPA is only one organisation, and not necessarily one with best guidelines for everything (cf. cameras, where DFU lets you jump one after 150 jumps, but makes you take a FJC with formally qualified instructor who writes off for your camera flying when you pass. It's a better approach I feel. Same with requiring AADs).

Re: pilot chutes, DFU also does spring loaded S/L, and it's an unnecessary complicatoin, as USPA has concluded decades ago (going counter to USPA from a few years before that) and DFU is finally getting around to. But at least that is a fairly simple change to only one component that you will be practising on every single jump without fail. Not something that will be used in high-stress, unusual situations your life hangs on. There's a lot of organisational inertia for many things, even things that interfere with education or safety. "X allows it" is not yet a proof of correctness and safety (of course "X bans it" is not proof of incorrectness either, but you already know which side I find more convincing in this case).
"Skydivers are highly emotional people. They get all excited about their magical black box full of mysterious life saving forces."

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you have a lot of opinions but not a lot of data to back it up. probably not the best way to go about an argument that can best be described as "i think or i feel."

as for the DFU vs the USPA...the USPA issues more A licenses, yearly, than Denmark has skydivers I'd wager. There are multiple training pathways here and if there were significant problems I'd venture to guess data would have popped up over the last 30 years.

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Wait, doesn't this all go back to RTFM for proper packing procedures for your equipment? Throw out, pull out, spring-loaded pc (on some mains or on every modern reserve), riser cover and riser routing, proper brake stowing, and closing flap order/methods vary between manufacturers and option on each rig. This is why it's important to learn how to pack your equipment from someone who knows your equipment.

FWIW, some jumpers choose to jump SOS for good reasons - I know one who does and two more who should. In an injured arm scenario, if you can't use either hand to pull both handles, SOS might be right for you. (Ex: if you can't use your left hand (only) to pull both the cutaway and reserve handles and your right hand is hurt and can't help, being able to reach all of your emergency handles with that left hand becomes really imprtant).

Edited for clarification and to fix fat finger typing.

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Holy thread drift batman!

The gist of the debate seems to be over training young skydivers on equipment different than they will be using in the long run.
I agree with the OP that training her to pack a student rig with static-line and SOS is silly because packing techniques are much different than the sport gear she will jump for the next 20 years.
The under-lying problem is the difficulty in re-training her on new gear.

I have seen huge changes in gear since I started jumping in 1977 and revolutionary changes in training methods since I became a static-line jump-master in 1982.
I have dropped students with military-surplus round parachutes deployed by pilot-chute assisted, sleeve, S/L; S/Led Para-Commanders in sleeves; Instructor-Assisted, bagged Para-Commanders; pilot-chute assisted, S/L squares; direct-bagged squares; 3 generations of tandems, PFF, AFF, wind tunnels, etc.
S/L was most valuable when cross-training military-surplus jump-masters.
SOS was most valuable during th early 1980s when S/L was the only method for dropping first jump students.
Fortunately, tandem has replaced that (solo FJC) market sector.

During the 1970s and 1980s the leading cause of death - among licensed jumpers - was unfamiliar gear with handles different than their old harness. Every new handle required dozens of ground practices to ingrain new handle-pulling techniques.

For decades, the Australian Parachute Federation had a tradition of starting every accident report with "the deceased was wearing borrowed gear."

In the long run, I prefer teaching first solo students (IAD or freefall) on gear similar to what they will jump in the long-run: Bottom of container, throw-out pilot-chute, 3-ring release system with a separate release handle, loop reserve ripcord, RSL and electronic AAD.

Anything else requires additional transition training. If they practiced the first handles procedure a dozen times, they might need hundreds of rehearsals on new handles to over-write old procedures.

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In the long run, I prefer teaching first solo students (IAD or freefall) on gear similar to what they will jump in the long-run: Bottom of container, throw-out pilot-chute, 3-ring release system with a separate release handle, loop reserve ripcord, RSL and electronic AAD.




That's what we use. And we still run and promote FJC.
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

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I don't have the data because nobody has the data. The biggest incident database available only goes back to 1995 and ends in 2008. DZ.com's DB only goes back to 2004 and is very far from being comprehensive. USPA used to have an online DB, then they made it close to impossible to use, then in the latest website revision removed it completely. I know there were fatalities related to the SOS use, but I have no way of finding them. Similarly you have no way of showing the lack of correlation between SOS use and incidents. So we don't actually know that data haven't popped up, it might simply be hidden because nobody can analyse them enough.
"Skydivers are highly emotional people. They get all excited about their magical black box full of mysterious life saving forces."

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sammielu

FWIW, some jumpers choose to jump SOS for good reasons - I know one who does and two more who should. In an injured arm scenario, if you can't use either hand to pull both handles, SOS might be right for you. (Ex: if you can't use your left hand (only) to pull both the cutaway and reserve handles and your right hand is hurt and can't help, being able to reach all of your emergency handles with that left hand becomes really imprtant).



Absolutely, I never intended to suggest SOS is not a good choice for people who need to jump SOS gear. I only ever objected to training students who will then progress to two-handle gear on such systems.
"Skydivers are highly emotional people. They get all excited about their magical black box full of mysterious life saving forces."

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riggerrob

During the 1970s and 1980s the leading cause of death - among licensed jumpers - was unfamiliar gear with handles different than their old harness. Every new handle required dozens of ground practices to ingrain new handle-pulling techniques.

For decades, the Australian Parachute Federation had a tradition of starting every accident report with "the deceased was wearing borrowed gear."



Well, there we go. Not exactly data, but at least anecdotal confirmation that it was at some point a significant problem.
"Skydivers are highly emotional people. They get all excited about their magical black box full of mysterious life saving forces."

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I don't think many of us stopped "learning to pack" after that first packing class, there's just too much information for a new jumper to really get proficient at in a few hours. Licensed skydivers are responsible for their own learning in all aspects. So... Be careful who you listen too.

I know someone who prefers to teach packing to new jumpers on a 99 triathalon. Great way to show all aspects of packing and get that A license sign off on one pack job, but doesn't prepare a newbie to pack the 190sf 9 cell they will likely be renting and jumping at first!

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I don't think many of us stopped "learning to pack" after that first packing class,



Good point. I love to visit other riggers and watch them pack reserves. I almost always pick up new tricks.
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

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