Small format cameras/SIM

[DSE 3]

This is a hotly debated topic with the advent of GoPro and Contour-type cameras.
People with as few as 25 jumps are sticking cameras on their helmets.
The argument has been that the SIM recommendations are specifically aimed at snag hazards rather than the mental acuity required to jump with a camera on one's head or body.
These are recommendations, not BSR's.

~Should the USPA update their recommendations/SIM information to include these small format cameras?
~Should the USPA issue a reminder to DZO's and S&TA's with regard to camera flying recommendations?
~Should the recommendations be changed to lower numbers due to the small size of these cameras?
~Should the USPA do nothing?

I do expect the results to be somewhat skewed simply because of the number of newbie jumpers that may not understand the ramifications of jumping with a camera. I'd like to see discussion as much as voting. Hoping to hear from some of the "old-timers" in the sport.

The relevant SIM section.

[dragon2 0]

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People with as few as 25 jumps are sticking cameras on their helmets.

Caught one with 18 jumps today, said he had permission to jump it from an instructor at another Dutch DZ. Now this should be impossible since we have mandatory rules here for camera:
if you want to jump camera in freefall, you need: B-license, audible, 200 formation jumps. Not: "it's just a gopro,so go right ahead even before you have your A".
I'm guessing that although he denied, said jumper did know this as I saw him turning away his helmet every now and then, holding it with the camera hidden against his body, while he was getting pin-checked so the instructor didn't even see he had a camera on there. Of couse a few of us jumpers standing around had spotted him a while back... Kind of a give-away, him wearing a student rig, loaner alti, fairwind helmet + gopro



I'm hearing this more and more, also from other countries, so maybe these little cameras should be specifically mentioned: "you need 200 jumps to jump ANY camera no matter how small it is"
But in this specific case the jumper hadn't yet read the BVR, has probably no clue it exists either (not until you need to do theory for your A do people start reading this, generally, unless you have an inquisitive jumper), so jumpers like this one wouldn't be deterred by a change in wording. The instructors OTOH should already KNOW it's not a matter of size

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[lilchief 0]

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*** Not: "it's just a gopro,so go right ahead even before you have your A".

+1

Adding a cam take away your attention! That's critical in some cases...a GoPro or Contour will easily break if snaged, but some of the already reduced brain capacity will be used purley for filming. If not...why bring the cam?

..my 2 cents..

"Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been and there you long to return." - Da Vinci
www.lilchief.no

[VideoFly 0]

Just add camera dive to the list of types of zoo dives. I’m not sure we can stop people from jumping with cameras, but if they can’t fly well, their stills/videos will be garbage, just like most people’s home and vacation videos are. Who cares about crappy shots as long as students and others aren’t expecting and/or paying for quality filming. As far as safety goes, that’s another story. From someone with many hours of camera work in freefall, I think we may possibly see more mid-air collisions, low pulls, tail strikes, formations failing to build, funneling, canopy wraps, and crash landings. Some of those problems may hurt young photographers and some may hurt those being filmed or others on the plane.

It seems to be impossible to explain to young jumpers, the stages of awareness that experienced videographers go through after hundreds and even thousands of camera jumps. Also, the “it can’t happen to me” syndrome seems to be alive and well in respect to skydiving with cameras.

Once again, as has happened many times throughout history, technology has evolved at a faster rate than social norms and common sense. So, with safety in mind, get ready for the sport to go for a backward ride and watch out.

[faulknerwn 36]

We have had several tandem students in recent weeks ask about the Go-Pro! They wanted to do their own version of handi-cam. Scary!

[VideoFly 0]

If the new small cameras were mounted to jumpers’ feet, knees, shoulders, elbows, or hands, inexperienced jumpers would know that they sucked because they would flail around while trying to grab great shots. Why is it that inexperienced jumpers fail to understand the importance of their heads in flying safely? Why don’t they realize that until they have mastered instinctive flying skills, their heads need to be on a constant swivel and their awareness needs to be keen? After many skydives and many camera jumps, a keen awareness of the skydiving environment is possible, while also maintaining a focus on subjects. The head swivel becomes more of an eye swivel and the ability to predict occurrences, confirm reality, and respond to situations becomes second nature. But that takes a lot of time and commitment to safe practices.

[azureriders 0]

I am going to try and keep my reply short as everyone else seems to be covering most aspects very well, and they have also been discussed repeatedly before.

With over 1000 video jumps I will say that snag points are the very LEAST points of concern when a young jumper adds a camera to their head. Any other point already being addressed in this thread, as well as many other threads, or more likely to get a new videoit hurt or killed.

Further more, if snag points were the big concern, I have yet to see a snag less go pro set up. Some of them are just plane scary looking, and I would not jump them with out a helmet cut away system, yet 50 jump wonders are straping them to protecs.

In the past two months, I have stopped three such would be camera fliers. One was similiar to the one mentioned up thread, had permission from another DZ, or so he said. The other two thankfully both had the common sense to seek out advice before hand, although one had already bought all his gear because he just knew I was going to be ok with it, after all, he is so much more aware than any one else around, right?

This is a scary subject to me, and young jumpers need to back up and try and find out why the older guys are so concerned. If you are that dead set to learn to fly camera right now, then get with an experienced camera flier and will bet he can give you some drills to go work on, with out the camera, that will improve your skills and prepare you more for when you are ready.

[Cueb 0]

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Further more, if snag points were the big concern, I have yet to see a snag less go pro set up. Some of them are just plane scary looking, and I would not jump them with out a helmet cut away system, yet 50 jump wonders are straping them to protecs.

The line snags may not be such a big deal when the camera and base are kept in its place by 2 sided tape. (Not saying it's ok to fly a camera too soon, I just bought mine and haven't yet jumped it)

[DSE 3]

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The line snags may not be such a big deal when the camera and base are kept in its place by 2 sided tape. (Not saying it's ok to fly a camera too soon, I just bought mine and haven't yet jumped it)

With nearly 200 lbs of force required to pull the camera off at the base (line snagged under the plastic, against the double stick) I'd suggest it's a big deal.

Find TunaSalad on these forums and ask him his "jumped before 200 jumps with a stick on camera" stories (plural).

[azureriders 0]

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The line snags may not be such a big deal when the camera and base are kept in its place by 2 sided tape.

In my opinion, a 'break away' snag point is simply a last resort, a 'fix' for a problem that is not easily avoided. It is not a 100% satisfaction guaranteed situation (nothing is of course), and would still be better handled by avoiding the situation in the first place.

I have two video helmets:

#1 I use for most dedicated video jumps. It has a ring sight that is *virtually* snag proof, yet very firmly mounted and if it ever did snag a line, the only hope that I may have would be jettisoning the helmet all together.

#2 is mostly used for POV and inside video. This one has a still camera mount and a removable shumacher ring sight bracket. This allows me to use it as a back up video helmet and for H.A.L.O. videos. (no way to wear an O2 mask with #1). The ring sight bracket is mounted with three small Teflon screws as a break away point to the huge snag point that it creates.

The point to all this is that I am much more comfortable with helmet #1 when considering the ring sight snag points of the two helmets. The 'break away' screws on #2 *may* fix an existing problem, while #1 *virtually* does not have such a problem.

So my conclusion is that a snag point is a snag point, and that The line snags may not be are such a big deal when the camera and base are kept in its place by 2 sided tape. This is just my opinion of course.

Now I feel like my reply is drifting away from the main point of my opinion of the thread title. I still feel that snag points are the least of our concern. I also feel that the SIM should be updated to a verbiage that obviously includes any and all cameras.

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Not saying it's ok to fly a camera too soon, I just bought mine and haven't yet jumped it

[JohnnyMarko 1]

Not all newbies are complete r-tards...I myself have only been jumping for about 3 months now, and completing some solo jumps before Im A licensed....I have a GoPro camera BUT there is no way in hell I would skydive with it with my experience level...I use it for other things like snowboarding, kayaking, and so on...to other newbies out there...YOU CANNOT SIMPLY ATTACH A CAMERA, TURN IT ON, AND FORGET ABOUT IT....as much as I would love to get some POV in skydiving, I still have so much to learn before I can safely jump with a camera....when Im snowboarding with the GoPro, I can't turn it on and forget about it...Im always consciously aware of it and trying to get the "coolest" shot....

In short...I know I shouldn't jump a camera and other 'sub 200' jumpers should be as smart as me () and save the camera flying for the experienced guys...

[Cueb 0]

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With nearly 200 lbs of force required to pull the camera off at the base

Didn't quite realize it was that strong. I remember looking at the mount and thinking it was kind of a snag hazard but then just tought that tape would give up easily. Seems I was wrong.

I myself have a sony cx150 mounted in a top mounted box. Will take it on it's first flight next weekend.

[antonija 0]

I wanted to put on a camera when I had a bit under 100 jumps... I then made some more jumps pretending they are video/photography jumps and I must say I was never so surprised to hear neptune screaming in my ear to deploy. Scary stuff. I'm now "legal" to wear a camera but I think I'll wait some more before actually putting one on. Filming my own funeral is not exactly on top of my wishlist.

I understand the need for conformity. Without a concise set of rules to follow we would probably all have to resort to common sense. -David Thorne

[dynamite 1]

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We have had several tandem students in recent weeks ask about the Go-Pro! They wanted to do their own version of handi-cam. Scary!

Just like this?

[velvetjo 0]

Anyone else find it ironic that Headcamguy.com used an outside still as the feature shot for an entire site dedicated to POV cameras?



Lance

[mmacro 0]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but as Douglas Spotted Eagle pointed out, camera flying is written as a recommendation in the SIM not a basic safety requirement. A jumper can wear a camera when he wants to.

There are some very valid points and reasoning made by jumpers; especially Johnny Markovich’s.

But in the end it is up to the DZO to approve a jumper wearing a camera helmet – regardless of 100 jumps or 1,000 jumps.

And as jumpers we all have the option of getting off a load that has a jumper we feel is unsafe.

Are there naturals out there that could jump a camera with sub-200 logbooks: probably. Does everyone think they are in that category: probably more intermediate jumpers than we wish over estimate their skills.

Like it or not there are jumpers exceeding skills every day. Look at the causes of injury/deaths at DZs. The large portion of them is jumper error under an open canopy (hook-turns and downsizing).

I wish I could jump a camera now; I’m just a little over 100 jumps. And not long ago I seriously thought about asking if I could. But the arguments to wait make sense. As a photographer and journalist the temptation is always there.

[Cueb 0]

yeah.. it indeed creates a huge distraction even after 200 jumps.. I myself was filming stuff inside the airplane and after a guy opened the door I realized i hadn't closed the chin strap. I wasn't exiting yet but it indeed shocked me that I hadn't closed it after I put it in my head. I think a friend exited with chin strap undone with camera and closed it in free fall when he was starting filming..

Nothing potentially fatal really but a good example of the distraction the camera creates, there's no way that would happen with normal helmet.

[mircan 0]

I would really like to see/read what "gopro+50jumps" stories DSE gathered so far...

dudeist skydiver #42

[stratostar 5]

Well I think you and most others know how I have viewed this over the years, (young ones jumping cameras) however I'm now going to change horses in mid stream and officially state go right fucking ahead and strap that shit on baby, you got the balls and no brains, cool, we got video of your fuck ups and maybe even your untimely death.

I think USPA should drop any statements regarding any requirements for camera use and any fool at any jump number, stupid enough to risk it should be allowed to do so, even more so now that we have Go-pro's on the market.

It don't matter how many people have said hook turns are killers and so is downsizing to fast, yet there is a endless number of tards chomping at the bit for their turn in line to prove it's true year after year......... might as well happen with camera flying too.

I highly advise all DZO's to require all the people who wish to jump cameras of any kind or size, sign a contract stating all copyrights belong to the DZO in exchange for the rights to have a lift in the DZO's aircraft and tapes and memory will be handed over at day's end or each jump. That way when people start bouncing or taking out others you'll own the rights to sell the footage to real TV and the likes.

Anyone who don't wish to sign the contract and hand over all the footage each day, won't be jumping cameras at your DZ, problem solved.

We've made this sport too safe, the weed out factors are now so low we need new inventive ways help to weed out the flying dead, I know a lot of people who fired cypres more then once due to head up ass while flying syndrome, they would have been dead had the sport not been made so safe, as it is they got to try it again and the damn thing worked, again.

So really WTF, why should you care, they got an AAD and mad skillz, let um go for it~!

Video @ 11.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[mmacro 0]

Wow... So how do you really feel about the topic?

[velocityphoto 0]

Strato is merely stating what most people think about it that are experienced. There are reasons this has been a topic for years now. It is dangerous and if you won't or don't listen to the experienced camera flyer it's just plain stupidity!

Are you jumping a gopro or any other type video camera or still?

A friend will bail you out of jail , a REAL friend will be sitting next to you in the cell slapping your hand saying "DUDE THAT WAS AWSUM " ................

[skyjumpenfool 2]

So... then you're saying it's OK for me to keep jumping my camera and fireing my AAD?? No? I'm confused. I've gotta go order a velo....

Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

[JohnnyMarko 1]

Im sure it has, but does anyone know if this has been brought up to the USPA? I think there should be BSR for jumping with a camera, not just a recommendation. Just as there are sub-200 jumpers that probably could jump a GoPro or smaller camera, theres probably a lot of 200+ that shouldn't...either way, my final word, it should be a rule, not just a recommendation. Possibly even training courses required.

[DSE 3]

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Im sure it has, but does anyone know if this has been brought up to the USPA?

Part of what prompted this thread are two letters sent to the USPA Safety and Training committee and to Jim Crouch at USPA.
I'm sure they're all quite busy, but no response has been received. I posted the poll because I wanted to get at least an idea of what folks think about small format cameras and the recommendations.

[jimmytavino 16]

in fact the 200 jump "benchmark" is way to LOW...


in the past the pure COST alone,, of a skydiving capable video camera , kept all but the most Dedicated,,, from following through on their personal plans to become a freefall videographer....
cost were over 1000 bucks.... for equipment that was far less superior to what has come down the 'technological trail' in the past 10 years or so...
Often the further incentive , was to help out the DZ by stepping up to film Tandems and Affs,,, which was fast becoming a needed service everywhere.....
I'm damn sure that i 'missed " many a fun and exciting skydive with my Pals, because i needed to be on jumps with TMs and AFF Instructors...

still most video people were in it , to Help Out... NOT to have P O V footage,, of each skydive they made..
Then came a time where just about anybody with a few hundred jumps, felt accomplished enough for a side mount camera , while they jumped. The freeFly community laid the ground work, for side mount cameras, and for multiple camera wearers, on the same jumps....
all well and good,, IF the freefly skills were THERE,,,, If the camera was well secured, and protected on the helmet,,, and MOST importantly !!!! if the wanna be camera person had anything around 500 bucks on a C Card line of credit..
Instead of Pro type Camera Shops,,, jumpers were shopping at Circuit City, Comp Usa, Best Buy, etc and then eventually E Bay,,, and craigslist.....

Today,,, with lower cost gear, smaller cameras....
and a hugely visible CROWD of jumpers wearing helmet cams... it has nearly become routine.....
the status relegated to camera people 10 and 15 years ago.. has been replaced by a "so- what"?? attitude as sooo many jumpers now board aircraft.."camera-equipped"....
time will tell whether the Stick-On cameras will endure.... or whether they will fall to disfavor....
either way... I'd push
for for a Combination !!! of 3 YEARS in the sport, minimum AND 500 jumps...Minimum...
but that is coming from a guy who had 1725 jumps over 23 years of close involvement in the sport, before ever thinking of adding a video Cam....
glad i did WHEN i did...
and No regrets... But just cause some can do it... doesn't necessarily mean that EveryBody can do it..

it can also be construed as "a rite of passage"... and until one has paid at least a Few Dues.....
A policy of patience.... just might be the right track to take..

jimmytavino
A 3914
D 12122