Tracking away from the Tandem to avoid a collision.

[DJL 232]

I once thought it was common knowledge that the videographer needs to track away from the tandem pair after/as they deploy. This was the primary reason why I learned how to back track, so that I could video the entire deployment as I was tracking away from them. There have been fatalities in which the tandem either cut-away or had a serious snivel and collided with the videographer. This concept seems obvious to me. Unfortunately, I've seen more and more video from people who should know better in which they didn't track away or they even deployed facing back towards the tandem pair. In one of these videos the tandem pair passed 5 feet in front of the videographer still in a snivel. This list of people includes a very seasoned AFFi/TM/DZ manager, an S&TA/AFFi/USPA Staff member, along with the usual assortment of videographers/TM's/AFFi's with thousands of jumps who work at HUGE DZ's with the most knowledgeable jumpers in the country.

My jump plan the bottom of a Tandem Vid jump is that when we get near pull time I get slightly below and away from the pair so that I don't get kicked, I'm safe from the trap door, and so I'm safe from any sudden surge towards me. As the canopy comes out I move away from them and transition to my back and track away. In the video you can actually tell that there's lateral movement away from them. If it's a good solid canopy then by this point I'm usually far enough away and can flip/wave/deploy. If it's not then I turn over and continue to track to a safe pull altitude/distance. This way I've finished a good video with them in frame through the full deployment and I've gotten myself out from under them.

So, am I wrong about this? Is this so hard? Why do I get blank stares whenever I bring this up with people? Do people really think that vertical separation is adequate?

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[DSE 3]

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Do people really think that vertical separation is adequate?

I don't think you're wrong at all. I'd hope folks don't think vertical separation is enough. The videographer becomes a target in the malfunction or long snivel.
That said, I've seen several vidiots that merely go to their back or sit, watching the tandem deployment, roll to their belly, and deploy. Norman Kent and Ed Dickenson both heavily stressed getting away when I was first starting out, and eventually a backtrack became second nature.
Good post!

[velocityphoto 0]

Just keep in mind when your tracking that there are other tandems or jumpers in the area .Say there are other tandems and camera flyers on the same pass, do you know there line of flight to avoid them?
I am all for separation . But a couple years ago another highly experienced camera flyer and i almost had a canopy collision on opening , and we never did figure out how we came so close .
Luckily i saw him on my deployment and managed to avoid the collision. We were both jumping highly loaded cross brassed xaos canopies.

A friend will bail you out of jail , a REAL friend will be sitting next to you in the cell slapping your hand saying "DUDE THAT WAS AWSUM " ................

[alge 0]

Transition to back during deployment. Backtrack a couple of seconds until the tandem is gone. Flip over, adjust heading to get perpendicular to jump run, track until pull altitude. How hard can it be? (=

(*cough* and no, I won't show you the video of me summersaulting instead of transitioning to back. I blame the booties!)

[jimmytavino 16]

'track until pull altitude'

just bear in mind that pull altitude could be waaaay higher than normal...IF you are late in the lineup...
the uppers are low, and the spot is long....

seperation IS important... but a camera person does NOt wanna be soooo seperated, that they come up short of the dz...
Gotta be there,, for when the tandem lands...

For sure... be away from the column of air ,,, which belongs to the tandem, and which can extend vertically for thousands of feet...
The TM needs that column, in the event of a cutaway or other issue at the time of 'drogue release'...

get to the side. and if you're moving.. move perpendicualr to the line of flight...
adjust pull altitude according to what your eyes see, relative to the perceived "spot for that given load."

jt

[velocityphoto 0]

All this depends on what kind of canopy you are flying my friend. I like to be in the saddle by 3000 . Say the tandem pulls by 5500 which they usually don't and it takes the canopy 1000 feet to open and i'm filming the opening.
Now i'm at 4000 or lower gives me little time to transition and then get my separation since my canopy takes 1000 feet to open and it might get really interesting at any time during that opening ,and i want to make it back to the dz too!

A friend will bail you out of jail , a REAL friend will be sitting next to you in the cell slapping your hand saying "DUDE THAT WAS AWSUM " ................

[DJL 232]

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All this depends on what kind of canopy you are flying my friend. I like to be in the saddle by 3000 . Say the tandem pulls by 5500 which they usually don't and it takes the canopy 1000 feet to open and i'm filming the opening.
Now i'm at 4000 or lower gives me little time to transition and then get my separation since my canopy takes 1000 feet to open and it might get really interesting at any time during that opening ,and i want to make it back to the dz too!

I hear you. There's no reason to not be able to track away WITH enough altitude to get back after opening. I like the back-track because I can see what's going on with the opening. If it looks like there's going to be a chop then me getting back to the DZ just became second priority. Of course you should know the hand you're dealing with before you exit.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[billvon 2,384]

>I like to be in the saddle by 3000 . Say the tandem pulls by 5500 which
>they usually don't and it takes the canopy 1000 feet to open and i'm filming the
>opening.

Sounds like your canopy may not be compatible with the kind of skydiving you are doing.

[jumpwally 0]

Thats what i was thinking,,wow,,doesn't sound like the best set-up...

smile, be nice, enjoy life
FB # - 1083

[Laszloimage 0]

I have to agree with Lonnie.
I like to have a 1000feet sniwel to protect my spinal cord. But I also prefer to be setteled at 3K just because the nature of the job. The long spots all the traffic front of us, and more...
In the other hand yes I highly recommend to get far away from the tandem more horizontally than vertically.
Tandem instructors should be team players too in this matter. If they have a camera guy they shouldn't pull lower than 5K (4.5 is the minimum anyway) but 5.5 is better. I know the "game" from both side. As a tandem instructor I pull 7K if I have to just to make sure the camera man can deploy safly and still making it back to the DZ.
I was once in the situation (long time ago) when the TM/I complained because he almost sniwelled into me with his resereve after a cutaway. He also pulled somwhere between 4 and 4.5K. I shouldn't have needed to pull low because he wanted to. I learned my lesson though...
Now if the tandem didn't release the drouge by 5.5K I start back sliding or back tracking and I pull no lower than 4K. (plenty of horizontal separation even with the Velocity). As soon as I can steer my canopy I make a 90degree turn off the line of the flight. Over the years I happend to film my own tandem under canopy as well.... If the TM/I is a retard and inconsiderate to pull low it doesn't mean I have to do the same stupid thing as well.

I'm a pussy I'm a dirty high puller

[davelepka 4]

Let me play devils advocte -

What about an off heading opening on the part of the camera flyer? If you think about how many horizontal feet you'll cover in your track, how long would it take a fast canopy (even with the brakes set) to fly right back along that line?

In that sense, dumping right under the tandem has the advantage that whatever heading you open on is going to fly you out from under the tandem.

Let's back up, and return to the off heading opening of the camera flyer. So you're back tracking way from the tandem, and most likely you're fliming head on for the opening, so you're tracking along the tandems heading. If the tandem opens on-heading, the tandem canopy will be flying in the direction of your track, and then if you go 180 off heading, the distance between the two is bruned up even faster.

It seems that between the fact that canopies can and do open off heading, and that canopies do begin forward motion as soon as the slider is halfway down, there are quite a few variable in place in this situaiton.

Here's another idea - vertical seperation, due to the RSL can be a very good thing.

As a camera flyer, you should be filming through the opening at least until the slider is most of the way down. What this does is confirm to you that the tandem is not experiencing a high speed malfunction.

In the case of a high speed mal, your job is to get the hell out of there. It's anyone's guess as to how things will play out, and gone is the best place for you.

If you're just one in a line-up of jumpers/groups out of a turbine, and you see a high speed mal developing, you need to stop filming, and track on your belly so you can determine jumprun, and curve yourself off to one side or the other after you've gotten yourself moving.

With nobody else in air, by all means, backtrak away and bring home the footage,

Let's go back to the slider being down. At this point, you've fallen at least 1000' past the tandem as the opening takes time. Unless is a slammer, then you spend two seconds feeling the pain of your buddy the TI.

Now you're 1k under an open tandem. You toss your PC, and are under canopy anywhere between 1200' (ouch) and 1800' under the tandem. Total time elapsed between drouge release and now is 10 to 15 seconds. Total time the TI has been under a canopy with the slider mostly down (which you watched for) is half of that.

We know that the tandem is limited to low speed mals. Tension knots, stuck brakes, broken lines, etc. The TI has two options, either take a shot at working out the problem, or prep the student and perform the cutaway.

Of course if they take a shot at fixing it, by the time they identify the problem and spend 20 seconds trying to sort it out, you as the camera guy who started out under canopy 1500ft below them have been under canopy for at least 20 seconds, and have increased that vertical gap due to the higher descent rate of your sport canopy, and flown a considerable distance away from under the TI. If the TI cuts away at this point, you are free and clear.

Now lets back up again, and say the TI is not game to do any in-air rigging. They take ten seconds to identify the problem, and ten seconds to prep the student ("Hey Billy Bob, I'm going to need you to grab your harness and arch again, thanks") and perform the cutaway. You have now been under canopy, 1500 ft below them, for at least ten seconds, where again you've gotten further below and flown out from under them.

The end result is that the RSL will have the reserve deploying in a very short vertical distance from the cutaway, and the slow speed of the mal will help to reduce the vertical distance needed for the canopy to open.

Of course, if the RSL breaks,,,,,,

It can go on forever. The real magic bullet is to pay attention. If you watch your canopy open, look for the tandem up there and confirm that the 90% of an opening you watched completed without incident. If your an eyes-on-the-horizon kind of guy during deployment, you need to get your head up ASAP and see what's happening up there.

The key thing to remember is that once the tandem slider is most of the way down, the pace slows considerably in terms of cutting away and how fast that happens. On top of that, by hanging in there and visually confirming the slider is down, you have built in a cushion of altitude that you build up even further while rolling over, throwing your PC, and however much altitude your canopy takes to open.

Considering the number of tandems performed with video over the years compared to the number of incidents of tandem cutaways colliding with camera flyers, I hardly think that this is a 'problem' that needs to be solved with a solution that in itself has holes in it's theory (just like my theory above has).

In terms of the examples of long sniveling tandem mains colliding with open (or opening) camera flyers, those guys ignored the basic concpet of watching the slider, and that's just plain wrong, but not related to situations involving camera flyers who do watch the slider, and tandem cutaways.

[Miami 0]

Took the words right out of my mouth Dave! Man it's been a long time since I posted here, almost forgot how...

I do not track during my typical tandem video. If I flew on my belly I sit up on my knees while I watch their opening until my opening alt. If I back flew I stay on my back watching their opening until shortly before my pull alt, then roll over and pull. Either way I pull directly below the tandem, usually in the saddle at 2500'.

There are too many variables if you move away from the tandem, especially if you are back tracking through altitudes others may be pulling at. My canopy (any canopy) will get me plenty far enough out of the way before the tandem ever gets down to my alt, whether I open on or off heading.

Like I said, this is during a typical tandem video, if they have problems you play it by ear.

Miami

[DJL 232]

So you summarize what you're saying, since there's a possible situation where tracking away from the tandem won't solve the problem then there's no point in doing anything?

Of course any rote routine doesn't exempt someone from paying attention, but what's better, sitting there and waiting for something to happen or putting yourself in a location that is the safest for you the tandem pair and the remainder of the jumpers on the load?

Maybe my opinion comes from seeing video of what was 5 feet from being a tandem pair/videographer entanglement. I'd love to see people get on here after that and say, "Considering the number of tandems performed with video over the years compared to the number of incidents of tandem cutaways colliding with camera flyers, I hardly think that this is a 'problem' that needs to be solved with a solution that in itself has holes in it's theory (just like my theory above has)." I'm HOPING that people already know what the safe zones are in the video slot.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[Miami 0]

I don't mean to put words in Dave's mouth, but I believe he is saying there is not a problem that needs solving.

Miami

[velocityphoto 0]

Lets do tandems and video together sometime! :)

I had a guy a couple years ago that liked to pull low while i was filming him and it really pissed me off. I had to have several talks with him. until he finally understood where i was coming from about his opening alt. He would continually dump at 4500 or lower, putting me in the ugly zone!

A friend will bail you out of jail , a REAL friend will be sitting next to you in the cell slapping your hand saying "DUDE THAT WAS AWSUM " ................

[davelepka 4]

Quote

Maybe my opinion comes from seeing video of what was 5 feet from being a tandem pair/videographer entanglement.

Just to be clear, did this involve a camera flyer who gave more then 1000' of vertical seperation before dumping and then a tandem cutaway, for a possible tandem reserve/camera flyer wrap?

Either way, let's run through some problems with tracking-

You film the second tandem out, and there's 10 seconds from exit to exit. You backtrack away from your tandem, and happen to be tracking right down jumprun. Maybe you make it halfway to the other tandem airspace in your track.

10 seconds before your tandem dumped, the first tandem releases his drouge, and opens to find a stuck brake. His canopy opened facing up the jumprun. Now both of you are in the same airspace, you below, the tandem ready to chop. Remember, all the time you may have beofre your tandem chops a low spped mal, the tandem that got out first, and flew above where you opened is 10 seconds ahead of schedule. Now you might have a problem.

What if the first tandem out is a linebacker, and for one reason of another, they don't release the drouge until 4000ft? If they happen to open and be flying back up jumprun, and you backtrack down jumprun from 5500' when your TI dumped, you're going to backtrack into their open canopy.

How about this - tandem one is a slow faller, and your is on the faster side. Your TI opens at 5500, to give you a fighting chance against a long spot. You backtrack down the jumprun, open up, and point yourslef back towrard the DZ, like most jumpers on a long spot. Meanwhile tandem one is still in drougefall somewhere above you. A high speed mal will have him down in your neighborhood in a big hurry.

Here's another, you backtrack away, but this time away form the DZ, about 45 degrees off jumprun. You open and turn toward home, offest from jumprun because of your track. Meanwhile your tandem opened 90 degrees from jumprun, and your ground tracks are soon to cross. Again, tandem cutaway = bad news.

We haven't even gotten to the subject of multiple camera flyers on one load. Now you have all sorts of problems with people tracking, and opening in the same general area, and still have the tandems above.

I'm sure you could run down ten ways not tracking could go bad, but the truth is that parachutes don't open and sit still. In some ways that's good, and in some ways that's bad.

The idea is that we're all sharing the same block of 'deployment airspace' from 5500' down to 2500' (below that somebody really fucked up) and a couple hundered feet either side of the jumprun. Almost anything could happen in that block of space between the camera guys, and their pull altittudes, the tandems and their differing pull altitudes (maybe a little higher if we're way out there) and various tandem malfunction scenarios. Those rigs have like 5 or 6 handles, anything is possible.

Anything could happen, any one of 100 ways. I like to put a little vertical distance between myself and the tandem, open up and take a look around. Get eyeballs on the other tandems, any other camera guys and go from there. It could kill me and my tandem 6 different ways. So could your way.

That's why I vote for understanding what's going on around you, who's where doing what, pay attention, and be careful. To be any more specific is just guessing as to what is going to go wrong and how it's going to happen, and that's impossible.

[DSE 3]

Another variable in the discussion is also going to be aircraft. Although I only have around 800 camera jumps with tandems (most of them from a King 90) I've yet in any instance be even remotely close to another tandem and/or a videographer even with four tandems and four vidiots on a load.
Possible? Of course. Probable? Likely not.

[Miami 0]

Between roughly 1500 camera jumps and 1000 tandems, all from a wide variety of a/c, I've seen plenty that a decent tracking could cause a serious issue with.

Miami

[davelepka 4]

Quote

Another variable in the discussion is also going to be aircraft

Of course. I already mentioned that if you're jumping a 182, it's just you and you can track where ever you want.

A 206 with 2 tandems and video, you might want to back off the tracking speed a little if you like to track.

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I've yet in any instance be even remotely close to another tandem and/or a videographer even with four tandems and four vidiots on a load.
Possible? Of course. Probable? Likely not.

At the same time, the situation this thread was trying to prevent, is not likely provided you give your tandem enough vertical seperation, and visually confirm that the slider is down (or most of the way down).

If you really think about the timing involved, as I outlined above, the camera flyer falling 1000ft, and the deploying only takes 10 to 12 seconds, and that countdown begins the second the tandem reaches line stretch. You've confirmed the slider is down, so you're actually only 'under' the tandem for a few seconds before you canopy flies you out of that airspace. Meanwhile, the TI has been under a good canopy for 10 seconds by the time you are departing is 'under area'.

As I mentioend before, tandem cutaways from a low speed mal are not quick. They pull high for a reason, and this is it. They have time to asses the situation, verbally instruct the student, and perform the cutaway. There's no reason to rush, and there's every reason to take a breath. slow down, and do it right.

If you consider the variation in fall rates between tandems, the non-standard pull altitudes, and the laundry list of things that can go wrong, and you put it all in that block of 'deployment airspace' I mentioend, you can see that there's no way to have one plan that covers all bases.

I don't know about you, but I've opened above other tandems mnay times. I roll over to see a canopy below me one notch down jumprun. If this was a fast faller, and they went low for a reason, there's a fair chance the TI is either still dealing with, or is still distracted by that reason, and might just be flying up jumprun, into the area I would track into if I was tracking. They would get down there fast, and plenty of time under canopy to cover more ground than I would expect.

Tandems and camera flers are a unique situation in skydiving as we don't all track at break off and pull at the same altitude in different parts of the sky. There is a built in vertical component to our pull altitudes based on the fact that we film the deployment. In this way, the situation is different from other jumpers.

I prefer to utilize the vertical component, but otherwise remain in 'my' column of air (I say 'my' relative to other tandems, I actually share it with my tandem) through my own deployment. Once things have slowed down to canopy speed, I can get read on the situation, and proceed. I'm not crazy about the idea of leaving that column of air while still in freefall, especially back tracking where my heading, and what's in my heading is unknown to me.

I have stated several time that both methods have worked well for many people for many years. They both have their pros and cons, and it's up to each camera flyer to choose what works best for them on each jump. My real purpose for posting was that I disagree that there is one way, and only one way to handle the situation.

[diablopilot 2]

Dave, and Miami, you've got it spot on.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[DSE 3]

Dave, I'm not disagreeing with you, just pointing out some facets of my smaller experiences. I was taught early on to identify heading and track away for a few seconds, and still be in the saddle fairly high. With our King, jump run is spread out because TI's are not allowed to crowd the door for CG purposes. I've captured several mals, and you're right...they're slow. Very slow, actually.
Since I was taught early on to track out, I would admit I hadn't given these other scenarios much thought, and I certainly am pondering it now.

[davelepka 4]

CG issues aside, the KA is probably going a little faster on jumprun than an Otter or Caravan, and the smaller door also helps to slow down the TIs a little as well.

Actually if you picture that block of deployment airspace, drop three tandems and three camera flyers into it and visualize how much of the space each falling object could possibly reach, you'd see there's an awful lot overlap invovled. It's kind of scary.

[adamT 0]

With all types of skydiving out of larger aircraft we rely on big sky little me to keep us safe more then any of us want to admit. It is pretty scary when you think about it.

[ChangoLanzao 0]

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With all types of skydiving out of larger aircraft we rely on big sky little me to keep us safe more then any of us want to admit. It is pretty scary when you think about it.

Like the FAA jump pilot training video we use says:

"Skydivers are difficult to see, but they are even harder to hit" :D