mewing120 0 #1 July 1, 2003 OK, I roll the nose, the tail, make sure the slider is snug against the stops, and still the openings break my neck. Is there somethinI'm missing? Any help? Ora Vivo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChileRelleno 0 #2 July 1, 2003 Sabres always were notorious for hard openings just as stilletos were infamous for spinning up, hence the nickname spinetto. Its a PD thing ChileRelleno-Rodriguez Bro#414 Hellfish#511,MuffBro#3532,AnvilBro#9, D24868 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kris 0 #3 July 1, 2003 If you're not pulling in a track, if you're using tight stows, and are pencil-rolling the tail 3-5 times, then I would talk to a rigger about getting a pocket put on your slider. I had an original Sabre and adding the pocket and psycho-packing it did wonders for the openings.Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #4 July 1, 2003 Something I did when I was jumping a "slam-your-nutz-off" Sabre1 was to take the 4 cells from each side, roll them inwards and stuff them into the center cell. Note: PD does NOT recommend doing the above, it was something I did. Use at your own risk.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rdutch 0 #5 July 1, 2003 Big rubber bands, double wrapped also helps. Ray Small and fast what every girl dreams of! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kris 0 #6 July 1, 2003 It works on some, others it doesn't. Experiment. My Sabre opened better after I stopped rolling the nose completely on a psycho-pack, but better with it rolled on a PRO pack. Odd, I know.Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masher 1 #7 July 1, 2003 I did that for my first 3 jumps and got massive end cell closure, just like the FLC pictures. My rigger suggested leaving the nose alone, and pulling the slider right over the front and forming a pocket. I've only jumped that once, and it worked. But I have a grand total of about 7 jumps on my Sabre, so please insert a large grain of salt where necessary...-- Arching is overrated - Marlies Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kris 0 #8 July 1, 2003 QuoteI did that for my first 3 jumps and got massive end cell closure, just like the FLC pictures. My rigger suggested leaving the nose alone, and pulling the slider right over the front and forming a pocket. I've only jumped that once, and it worked. But I have a grand total of about 7 jumps on my Sabre, so please insert a large grain of salt where necessary... It really depends on the canopy. You either get a good one or you don't. I jumped the piss out of Merrick's Sabre 190 while I was waiting for my new elliptical a couple of years ago and I couldn't get that thing to open hard if I tried.Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ALM 0 #9 July 1, 2003 Try not rolling the nose. It worked for me. Alan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sducoach 0 #10 July 1, 2003 and all those Stiletto jumps and no spinners.................. Now I'm scared....................... What's a PD thing? Rolled 4 and 4, pushed them in, segmented the slider and pushed it down into the lines, rolled the tail 6-8 turns from the top down to the lines. Used a PD type pack but did/do not cocoon the tail. I simply fold it into thirds and wrap the bag around it. On heading and nice and soft. Blues, J.E.James 4:8 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackR 0 #11 July 1, 2003 PD has a paper in the Education section of their website to address the reputation that Sabre has at some DZs. I highly recommend downloading it, printing it, and leaving it at the DZ for other jumpers. I've had mixed reviews on Sabre opennings. I have a Sabre and really can't complain about it. I'm pretty particular about my opennings and am always updating it. First the canopy openning is a very dynamic process. The first thing I learned from the PD paper on Hard Opennings is that there is more going on than meets the eye. Did you know that the mesh of your pilot chute will affect your openning? Most gear manufacturers will recommend F-111 pilot chutes while you're finding more and more ZP pilot chutes available from third party vendors. As a packer, I've had many Sabre owners ask for slow opennings because they have been slammed on an openning here and there. I've found that the Sabre requires attention, but not drastic measures. You can't pitch and toss around the canopy or the nose of the Sabre in a hurry and expect a smooth openning. I've heard myths about stuffing the nose into the center cell. Don't do this. It rips the seams of the center cell and you'll be more than bruised when your canopy blows up from the center out. I've heard myths about dragging a new ZP canopy through sand and dirt to take away the slipperyness. Well, that happens and you're also severely reducing the life of the canopy as well. One of the first recommendations from PD that I heard and like was, "Don't roll the nose. Make small folds." That the four (4) outside cells and make folds between 1 and 2 inches. You can usually get three or four of these in the nose without wrapping up the A-lines. This ensures that the same amount of canopy is in each fold on each side of the center cell. It also helps prevent the rolls from unraveling when you wrap the tail and set the canopy down. You want the canopy to open from the center and then pressurize the cells towards the end cells. This is the best openning. If you need to slow the openning down more, I do a fold on the center cell itself. I've never seen this recommended, so user beware. I'm not reall good at describing this, but here goes. You have the four outside cells on either side folded as described above. They set on either side of the center cell. Open the center cell nose slightly so you can see each side of it. I fold one side towards the other, then take the remaining side and wrap it over the first. It is a little like those original sandwich bags before we all got spoiled on Ziplock bags. I don't actually turn anything inside out, but it tends to block off the nose and delay inflation just that extra split second. Realize that while the nose is closed, your brake lines have time to travel to the front of the canopy on openning, so be sure to control these. You'll hear a lot of different canopies recommend placing the nose a little bit into the pack job as well. This can help a Sabre as well. I am careful about this. On this type of forum I'm afraid that someone will push it all the way past the C-lines and wonder why they got the line over. It is only slightly. There was mention of a pocket slider. Many people haven't seen these before. Strong uses them on their tandem canopies. Many people have had great success with pocket sliders on Sabres, but PD didn't design the canopy with this type of slider. There is so much interaction between the different parts of the skydiving system, that I don't recommend this either. In lieu of that, I've got another technique that may help you. If you have packed a Strong tandem or a rig with a pocket slider, you've seen that there is a lot of fabric at the front of the slider. It is cupping the air which is holding the slider towards the canopy until the canopy has enough pressurization to force the slider down. I like to set the original slider in the pack job with a similar cupping design. Most packing instructions have you quarter the slider between all of the line groups. This involves pulling the tape along each edge out like you're clearing the stabilizer or flaking the tail. You can pull the slider a little more towards the nose to slow down the openning or a little more towards the tail to speed up the openning. On my Sabre pack job, I just quarter the slider, but on the front I flatten the edge back along the front of the canopy. I do the same thing along the back. I've heard this shape described as a Dutch Hat. I don't mean to offend anyone, but it looks like that traditional hat the Dutch wore. This way I know there is a cupping of the air on openning and I know that the slider won't move when I set the canopy on the ground. These are the small things that I do to help my Sabre owners. This assumes that the rest of the pack job is good. I keep saying "set the canopy on the ground." It may look like the packers or other jumpers at your DZ are just flopping the canopy around, but if you do that, all the time you spent flaking the canopy, straightening the lines, and taking care of the nose is wasted. You just destroyed that neatness as the canopy plopped on the ground. You're also more likely to have that dreaded line over because your brake lines have also travelled to the front of the pack job. Getting the air out of the canopy, stacking it, and placing the bag around the canopy must be a coordinated effort. I've mentioned it before and I always teach it as follows. Many people lose the pack job in this process. They had trouble with it in the past and "know" they'll have trouble again. This is a self fullfilling prophecy. This part of the pack job is 90% mental. It is a game you play with yourself to see if you're controling the parachute or the parachute is controlling you. If you know you'll get the canopy bagged, then you'll have an easy time and the canopy will look as neat as those drawings that PD printed up in their manual. If you're scared of the canopy and think it has a mind of its own, you've already lost. This is coordinated, controlling, and there are no second chances. I've seen jumpers and packers not get it just right and take the stack back out of the bag. Well, you can recover the pack job, but it won't be neat. Just like taking SATs, Always go with your first answer. If you can get that bag closed on the first try, you'll probably have a better openning than if you pull it out, get it neat, and put it in cleanly. There is something about a do-over that just doesn't work for packing. I know I've written a novel here. If you're this far you're really trying to get that Sabre under control. Let me end with an antedote about Sabre packing. I packed for one of the jumpers at my old drop zone. He had a newer Sabre in an older container. He used to tell me to do nothing to the nose because he had never had a hard openning. The pace at this DZ was easy and everytime he asked me to pack for him, he would remind me and I would do as he asked. Then we had a boogie and I had a few pack jobs to do. He left his Sabre with me and I got to it in line. When I picked it up, I saw it was a Sabre, but forgot that he liked it with nothing to the nose. I just did my regular Sabre pack job as I described above and went on for the day. About a month later when he started talking to me again, he told me that his canopy snivelled so long that he almost chopped it. He didn't have me pack for him for at least a month afterwards. When I did, he was sure that I would pack it for a fast openning. About two months after he was talking to me again, he replaced his pilot chute. He other one was from the container from when it was new and was a really worn out F-111 PC with larger mesh holes in it. His new one was a sweet ZP one with a kill line and a hackey like all the cool guys have. Right about that time his Sabre snapped on him. Then he was asking for tips on how to slow the openning down some. Morale: You're wearing a parachute system. All of the parts from the main, the container, and even the reserve must work in concert with each other. It isn't a lego built system where as long as it fits you'll be okay. What works with one combination may not work with another. I hope you learned a little about canopies from me. I may not be right about any of it, so check with the manufacturer, check with your rigger, and practice your pack job. I'll be at Skydive Santa Barbara all summer and Lost Prairie for the Boogie if anyone wants to see a demonstration. -Jack Rumple D-20992 Discopants & HaircutsPackin' Jack 42nd Lost Prairie: The Ultimate Answer to Life, the Universe, and Skydiving 25 Jul - 3 Aug 2009 2007 photos: http://www.skydive.com/prairie/pages/prairie.htm Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Genn 0 #12 July 1, 2003 I own a Sabre and I'll never get rid of it. It's a great canopy and it flies great in accuracy approaches. I quarter the slider, leave the nose alone, and roll the shit out of the tail. Works for me every time Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 37 #13 July 1, 2003 Are they breaking your neck really? or just relative to the sniveling streamers sold these days. I've been jumping long enough that I'm about an inch shorter than I used to be. But, I prefer a canopy that opens before I can look at it. I demoed one of the first Sabres sent out and didn't like the 700' ft openings, both at terminal and hop and pop. When your willing to get out at 2000' (minimum pack opening for C and D per BSR's) you don't want a canopy that opens at 1300 ft. Now my Sabre bangs me once in a while. So did my Strato Cloud, Delta Cloud, Cirrus Cloud, Manta, and Triathlon. Only my PC opened slow. Of course it opened hard too but I used to pull in a track. The point is that openings are relative. What I consider normal and acceptable will be a "neck braker" to someone who has only jumped canopies that take 500-800 ft. to open. And these slower canopies are streamers that clear themselves.I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 624 #14 July 1, 2003 Heh! Heh! At one point I had so many extra sails sewn on to the slider of my Sabre 170 that hop-and-pops terrified me! Since I wanted soft openings when jumping camera, I followed Weird Wayne's advice and sewed pockets on all four edges of the slider. The damn thing took forever to open! Eventually I removed the pockets from the sides and the openings got reasonable. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChileRelleno 0 #15 July 1, 2003 QuoteSabres always were notorious for hard openings just as stilletos were infamous for spinning up, hence the nickname spinetto. Its a PD thing QuoteWhat's a PD thing?Quote The markup tag "" is often used to show one is not serious about something i.e. humorous. Some gear developes reputations which are not wholly deserved and I was poking fun. ChileRelleno-Rodriguez Bro#414 Hellfish#511,MuffBro#3532,AnvilBro#9, D24868 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites c2278222 0 #16 July 1, 2003 Get a larger slider and make sure the pC isn't to big. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Blahr 0 #17 July 2, 2003 Jump from your back porch and use a fitted sheet as your main. I used to get nice openings but the landings werent all that good. Neither were the spankings, but it was worth it! Well, almost. They made F-111 look like Zero-P! Had a few total malfunctions too but managed to get through em alright. I knew I wanted to skydive at age 7 Once I started jumping ram air canopies (a few years later) the openings were a lot harder but the landings much nicer :-) At age 38 I dont get spankings all that often anymore either. Almost never. Really! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites FallinWoman 1 #18 July 2, 2003 I flat pack mine..... The only person who had packed a nice opening for me is the guy who owned it before I did. He pro-packed it. No one else has been able to convince me that I need to pro-pack.... ~Anne I'm a Doll!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites btucker 0 #19 July 2, 2003 QuoteSomething I did when I was jumping a "slam-your-nutz-off" Sabre1 was to take the 4 cells from each side, roll them inwards and stuff them into the center cell. Note: PD does NOT recommend doing the above, it was something I did. Use at your own risk. PD present this as one method to pack a Sabre1 in the manual {I'm sure someone will correct me if my memory is wrong}. This is the method I use, it works nicely. NOTE:PD *do* warn you not to roll the nose. I've jumped 190,170 and 150 Sabre1's. They where all nice to me except the 150, which I have 500jumps on. I would guess 490openings and 10 arrivals. My advice on S1 openings: 1)Read the packing manual, download it from PD. 2)Be careful with the slider, especially when shoving it into the dbag. 3)Don't dump with ANY forward movement, even walking speed seems to slam. I only discovered this when doing solo sit (no track). Also, changing my pilot chute has introduced neck pain due to Sabernities. Evidently I used to have the habit of pitch THEN kill my track while the crapped out PC was towing. S1's ain't so bad, you can safely pitch at 2000 and still make legal opening height (1800). It's when it gets to under 150ft it starts to hurt and they hear you on the ground thanking it. Blues and softs, Benno Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites freakydiver 0 #20 July 2, 2003 Prayer and beer work for my Sabre135... -- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." -- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites hookitt 1 #21 July 2, 2003 QuoteS1's ain't so bad, you can safely pitch at 2000 and still make legal opening height (1800). It's when it gets to under 150ft it starts to hurt and they hear you on the ground thanking it. That's a 1 second opening. You're made of steel if you can handle thatMy grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nathaniel 0 #22 July 2, 2003 I do a straight pro-pack, no fancy roll this or that and sometimes I'm pretty lazy about tossing my pc during tracking...in about 40 jumps so far the only slammer was a hop-n-pop (!) that I packed in about 7 minutes... the canopy was mfd 1996 but only has ~ 150 jumps on it now. the only thing that stands out to me that I do different from most people is I'm very retentive about flaking it all nice and pretty...usually winds up taking 25 minutes to pack the thing so...this probably won't help you any nathanielMy advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Conquest150 0 #23 July 3, 2003 i do the same thing for my friend who jumps a sabre 190 and i dont think he has ever had a hard opening since then and in doing that he kinda got to the point where he only wants me to pack for him now but thats alright with me. just roll the 4 outside cells in and stuff them in the center one and roll teh crap out of teh tail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Perky77 0 #24 July 3, 2003 QuoteMost packing instructions have you quarter the slider between all of the line groups. This involves pulling the tape along each edge out like you're clearing the stabilizer or flaking the tail. You can pull the slider a little more towards the nose to slow down the openning or a little more towards the tail to speed up the openning. On my Sabre pack job, I just quarter the slider, but on the front I flatten the edge back along the front of the canopy. I do the same thing along the back. I've heard this shape described as a Dutch Hat. I don't mean to offend anyone, but it looks like that traditional hat the Dutch wore. This way I know there is a cupping of the air on openning and I know that the slider won't move when I set the canopy on the ground. I have a Sabre 170 with about 120 jumps on it and have yet to be slammed. I was taught to pack it, doing very similiar as JackR described to the slider, and not rolling the nose, but roll the crap out of the tail. I really make sure my slider is quartered and the edges of my slider are pulled up even with the edge of the canopy, hope you understand what i am trying to say...and make a small pocket shape in the slider on the nose side. I barely, emphasis on barely, push the nose in when done flaking it out. and roll the crap out of the tail with about 4 or 5 tight rolls at the top at the gromits holding the slider in and all the way up the lines. This works for me, Good luck with yours. "Sacrifice is a part of life. It is supposed to be. It's not something you regret . It's something to aspire to." Mitch Albom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
c2278222 0 #16 July 1, 2003 Get a larger slider and make sure the pC isn't to big. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Blahr 0 #17 July 2, 2003 Jump from your back porch and use a fitted sheet as your main. I used to get nice openings but the landings werent all that good. Neither were the spankings, but it was worth it! Well, almost. They made F-111 look like Zero-P! Had a few total malfunctions too but managed to get through em alright. I knew I wanted to skydive at age 7 Once I started jumping ram air canopies (a few years later) the openings were a lot harder but the landings much nicer :-) At age 38 I dont get spankings all that often anymore either. Almost never. Really! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FallinWoman 1 #18 July 2, 2003 I flat pack mine..... The only person who had packed a nice opening for me is the guy who owned it before I did. He pro-packed it. No one else has been able to convince me that I need to pro-pack.... ~Anne I'm a Doll!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
btucker 0 #19 July 2, 2003 QuoteSomething I did when I was jumping a "slam-your-nutz-off" Sabre1 was to take the 4 cells from each side, roll them inwards and stuff them into the center cell. Note: PD does NOT recommend doing the above, it was something I did. Use at your own risk. PD present this as one method to pack a Sabre1 in the manual {I'm sure someone will correct me if my memory is wrong}. This is the method I use, it works nicely. NOTE:PD *do* warn you not to roll the nose. I've jumped 190,170 and 150 Sabre1's. They where all nice to me except the 150, which I have 500jumps on. I would guess 490openings and 10 arrivals. My advice on S1 openings: 1)Read the packing manual, download it from PD. 2)Be careful with the slider, especially when shoving it into the dbag. 3)Don't dump with ANY forward movement, even walking speed seems to slam. I only discovered this when doing solo sit (no track). Also, changing my pilot chute has introduced neck pain due to Sabernities. Evidently I used to have the habit of pitch THEN kill my track while the crapped out PC was towing. S1's ain't so bad, you can safely pitch at 2000 and still make legal opening height (1800). It's when it gets to under 150ft it starts to hurt and they hear you on the ground thanking it. Blues and softs, Benno Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freakydiver 0 #20 July 2, 2003 Prayer and beer work for my Sabre135... -- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." -- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 1 #21 July 2, 2003 QuoteS1's ain't so bad, you can safely pitch at 2000 and still make legal opening height (1800). It's when it gets to under 150ft it starts to hurt and they hear you on the ground thanking it. That's a 1 second opening. You're made of steel if you can handle thatMy grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nathaniel 0 #22 July 2, 2003 I do a straight pro-pack, no fancy roll this or that and sometimes I'm pretty lazy about tossing my pc during tracking...in about 40 jumps so far the only slammer was a hop-n-pop (!) that I packed in about 7 minutes... the canopy was mfd 1996 but only has ~ 150 jumps on it now. the only thing that stands out to me that I do different from most people is I'm very retentive about flaking it all nice and pretty...usually winds up taking 25 minutes to pack the thing so...this probably won't help you any nathanielMy advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Conquest150 0 #23 July 3, 2003 i do the same thing for my friend who jumps a sabre 190 and i dont think he has ever had a hard opening since then and in doing that he kinda got to the point where he only wants me to pack for him now but thats alright with me. just roll the 4 outside cells in and stuff them in the center one and roll teh crap out of teh tail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Perky77 0 #24 July 3, 2003 QuoteMost packing instructions have you quarter the slider between all of the line groups. This involves pulling the tape along each edge out like you're clearing the stabilizer or flaking the tail. You can pull the slider a little more towards the nose to slow down the openning or a little more towards the tail to speed up the openning. On my Sabre pack job, I just quarter the slider, but on the front I flatten the edge back along the front of the canopy. I do the same thing along the back. I've heard this shape described as a Dutch Hat. I don't mean to offend anyone, but it looks like that traditional hat the Dutch wore. This way I know there is a cupping of the air on openning and I know that the slider won't move when I set the canopy on the ground. I have a Sabre 170 with about 120 jumps on it and have yet to be slammed. I was taught to pack it, doing very similiar as JackR described to the slider, and not rolling the nose, but roll the crap out of the tail. I really make sure my slider is quartered and the edges of my slider are pulled up even with the edge of the canopy, hope you understand what i am trying to say...and make a small pocket shape in the slider on the nose side. I barely, emphasis on barely, push the nose in when done flaking it out. and roll the crap out of the tail with about 4 or 5 tight rolls at the top at the gromits holding the slider in and all the way up the lines. This works for me, Good luck with yours. "Sacrifice is a part of life. It is supposed to be. It's not something you regret . It's something to aspire to." Mitch Albom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
