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rpolis

Camera Suit or Wings?

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Hey,
I am just getting into tandem photography and video and I am trying to decide whether or not I should use a camera suit or wings, or just my freefly suit. My DZ's current videographer just uses a freefly suit, but I have numerous people telling me I should do so many different things.... Does anyone have input on a starting point and what kind of suit they like the best? Any information is greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Robert

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Robert,
The most you need for tandem photography is 3-400 more jumps and 1-2 more years in the sport!
Actually 500 RW jumps (yes RW and not only jump numbers!!!) and additional 100 camera jumps are REQUIRED to film tandems!!!
Sadly DZ operators/owner ignoring that.
...maybe a rating to do tandem jumps won't be that important either.

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It is the mother load as he has out of the 162 jumps listed, 3 Wingsuit jumps and 20 video jumps! ;) Mad Skillzzzz :)

I do have to say we joke but there are some good well founded reasons for the poking of jump numbers.. Absolutely no other gauge is noted (current or not) and past happenings tend to make what is shown be a bad mix. The sky is not going away anytime soon so why not work on the things you need to to be safe??

Scott C.

"He who Hesitates Shall Inherit the Earth!"

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Sorry about that.... I have not updated my profile in a while. I have 200 jumps now, 90 of them with camera. Our tandem instructor has been very willing and I have done 30 or so jumps with tandems. I realize that most believe that is way too early to start doing video, but our dzo and our tandem instructor have agreed to let me start working on it. I was just curious about different clothing recommendations. Someone mentioned the difference between camera suit and wings... I mean a full body camera suit or just a top with wings.
Thanks,
Robert

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I have 200 jumps now, 90 of them with camera. Our tandem instructor has been very willing...



Willing to risk his students, willing to let you hurt him, willing to violate manufacturer requirements willing to hang you out to dry if something goes wrong, willing to.....?

I have both; my jacket is my preference most of th time.
I need to get my bright yellow suit dirtied up so I'm not so embarrassed at how neat it looks.:D
Get a bright yellow suit, by the time it's dirtied up just right, you'll have the jumps you need.

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I realize that most believe that is way too early to start doing video, but our dzo and our tandem instructor have agreed to let me start working on it.



I guess it's going to take some will power on your part to let them know you'll wait until you meet the requirements set by both the USPA and the manufacturer of the tandem gear your dropzone uses. You don't meet either of them yet. It's hard to say no when the DZO and tandem instructor are saying yes.

Do you realize that a tandem examiner could pull THEIR ratings for letting you jump with them?

Dave

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Robert,
The most you need for tandem photography is 3-400 more jumps and 1-2 more years in the sport!
Actually 500 RW jumps (yes RW and not only jump numbers!!!) and additional 100 camera jumps are REQUIRED to film tandems!!!
Sadly DZ operators/owner ignoring that.
...maybe a rating to do tandem jumps won't be that important either.



Cough cough bullshit cough cough!

Depending on your currency and attitude he could be ready any time now to jump with tandems.

Some people take years and many hundreds of jumps to be ready and some are ready at 150 or so jumps.

(where I am from) The reccomended minimum for a camera helmet is 100 jumps, then it is 200 minimum to jump with a Tandem (I have seen this done at around 100 jumps, succesfully and seemingly safely, but don't reccommend that at all).

For the O.P.;

Get you camera skills up with solo jumpers first while familiarising yourself with your wings, once yo have 200 or so do a few jumps with the tandems without the camera and when you feel comfortable and competent, start filming. If you have a good connection with the instructors you wil learn really fast, try to pick instructors that have plenty of experience filming tandems themselves.

As long as you are allowed by your CI and feel competent, go for it! You could be making lots of jumps and earning money sooner than you think.

Wings are much more suited for filming tandems, whether you have a small light instructor and passenger or big fat ones, they can be tucked into your armpits or spread out like a bat, a freefly style suit, even with baggy arms and 'swoop loops' will never have as much range as wings!

Look at what the real pro's use. Not your local hot shot, but the real professionals like Norman Kent etc...

get a camera jacket with wings, the best thing since sliced bread.
"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

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I'm not going to get into the classic discussions about numbers if I can avoid it...

I have a BevSuit Camera Suit in which I've done most of my Video jumps. having said that a week ago I ordered a Tonysuit camera Jacket that I plan to wear with freefly pants or with RW bootie pants as a two piece setup...

Of course I don't plan on getting rid of my Bev suit as it is a really nice, comfortable, and versatile suit...
Livin' on the Edge... sleeping with my rigger's wife...

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I realize that most believe that is way too early to start doing video, but our dzo and our tandem instructor have agreed to let me start working on it.



You seem to trust the judgment of these two dudes in relation to busting the manufacturer requirements, and pushing the USPA numbers, but you can't ask them for jumpsuit advice?

If you have these all-knowing folks watching over you, why not ask them what to use?

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hmmm sounds like a dropzone and a dzo who has a need for tandem video people,,,, yet few to choose from...:|
(a free fly guy who happens to have a camera, and a willing intermediate level skydiver,,, you!!!)

let me guess..
1. you're at a cessna DZ???
2. they do lots of tandems
3. many many tandem students just HAVE to have a video
4. the TM's don't wanna do hand-cam
5. you're young and enthusiastic

fact is. there are certain "recommendations" which are made with the welfare of all, taken into account.... you may or may not choose to follow them...
choose carefully though,,,,
i think you've already chosen,, so others may not be effective in influencing you...

soooo depending on your size and shape, a camera jacket could work, or else a camera suit with wings could work...
OF Course!!! since you already ARE a camera person you must Know ,,,,, that there are different SIZES of wings... but we don't wanna confuse things too much .. do we??

... as to the reply by rhys........

*** "cough cough Bullshit cough cough..."

BAD move to claim BS against the post made by laszlo.... perhaps you ( mistakenly) believe that he is not qualified to offer advice...
THAT would be waaay wrong, pal...
way wrong...:|>:(

of course judging by your profile,,, anyone who has made 4600 jumps in 6 years !!! must Know everything.....:|>:(
and perhaps you do...:S:S

but by the tone of your post... it seems that you think that anyone can be a prodigy.....
rpolis simply does not yet Know enough, to realize what he doesn't know... ( no offense intended rpolis)
rhys's casual 'anyone can do anything ' attitude is a dangerous one, IMHO

jmy

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Let me ask this:

If the manufacturer doesn't want you to RENEW with them, would you not only need to follow USPA recommendations?

I will also clarify that this jumpers sees a slot coming available at the end of March and is trying to be prepared for an opportunity. He is also battling a more experienced jumper that may take the slot and a TI that is considering Handycam.


I am not totally useless, I can be used as a bad example.

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I will also clarify that this jumpers sees a slot coming available at the end of March and is trying to be prepared for an opportunity. He is also battling a more experienced jumper that may take the slot and a TI that is considering Handycam.



Am I correct in understanding you're a USPA rep and DZO saying it's OK for the OP to be shooting tandems, USPA/manufacturer requirements notwithstanding?

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I wonder why people seem to think that merely looking at someones profile over the internet they are more qualified to judge someones skill level for activity X, than those (in this case TI´s and DZO´s) who know the person and have seen him fly.

This debate just goes on and on in here. :S This is truly classic.

Let the Insturctors and other mentors at the DZ decide who is capable of doing what. They are the only ones who have the necessary info for making these decisions..

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Not yet. I know he is getting close. He is an ambitious young jumper and trying to be ready if he can. He bought a camera setup before I would let him jump it. After much discussion, he started jumping a camera. He should be qualified by USPA recommendations by the end of March, but he still has another ahead of him for the slot.

As far as his skills, he is progressing very well. I would like to see him get a little more air time with me or another experienced jumper, but nothing he could not accomplish in two months of jumping.


I am not totally useless, I can be used as a bad example.

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to answer the question of what to wear while filming..you have to look at what you are filming, always dress for success, I have filmed Tandems in camera top, full camera suit, freefly suit, RW suit and just shorts and T-shirt...it al depended on who i was filming, what kind of speed or drag i needed for that jump. Be versitle, always look at your subject, first, not your suit. Larger pairs fall faster, need less sdrag, smaller pairs fall slower and will need more drag, or more wing. Some are meat missles which require some freeflying skills.

Enjoy the sport, learn to fly on all axis, know your limitations, I have filmed thousands of tandems, I still tell my boss....i cant do that one, it will be to fast or slow....
"Professor of Pimpology"~~~Bolas

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I wonder why people seem to think that merely looking at someones profile over the internet they are more qualified to judge someones skill level for activity X, than those (in this case TI´s and DZO´s) who know the person and have seen him fly.



Skydivers are obligated to know as much as possible prior to making recommendations. Kudos to those that are honest about their experience.
In this case, if Todd (the DZO) says the OP is good, then the OP is good. But many DZO's or instructors aren't "Todd." We've all seen students who have been told "you're better than most at your experience level," and the Incidents forum is full of "better than average."
Many DZO's simply don't give a shit, they just want a camera flyer to put coin in the coffer.
It's not a question of judging a skill level. It's a question of meeting BSR's and manufacturer requirements. "Skill" is entirely another discussion. BSR's are physical benchmarks. They're merely the FIRST line of entry, and certainly not the last.

I'm impressed as hell that Todd came in to support his skydiver, even if I have disagreements with what he's supporting.

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As far as his skills, he is progressing very well. I would like to see him get a little more air time with me or another experienced jumper, but nothing he could not accomplish in two months of jumping.



According to the OP -

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Our tandem instructor has been very willing and I have done 30 or so jumps with tandems




Which one is it? A couple of months away, or 30 jumps into it as we speak?

Edit to add - also from the OP

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I have 200 jumps now, 90 of them with camera



So best case scenario, given he's got 30 jumps with a tandem, he started jumping with tandems at 170 jumps. I'd be willing to bet that it was closer to 150 jumps, and he's mixed in 20 ish fun jumps in the last 50 hops.

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In this case, if Todd (the DZO) says the OP is good, then the OP is good. But many DZO's or instructors aren't "Todd."




This is exactly the point I made in the thread about the safety of 2008. I had commented that '07 was a fluke in terms of the low number of fatalities, and sure enough 2008 was right back to the average. My suggestion was that until there major changes in the attitudes of skydivers in general, there would never be a change in the fatality numbers.

This is a prime case of that. The OP has the backing and approval from the DZO, who is a USPA rep and a TI to follow a course of action that is well ahead of the 'norm' and in direct contradiction to multiple written recomendations.

This is the bull shit that needs to change. What about telling the guy, "It's a little soon for that. Keep at it, and when you're numbers come up, you'll be all set to jump right in"?

If he protests, you say, "Look pal, that's the way it is. If you really want to get there, stick around, and jump hard. It will pay off in the end. Otherwise, find yourself somewhere else to train, because it won't happen here".

This is what will set the stage for a safer learnig enviornment, and put the idea in his head that it's cool to go by the book. It's the way things get done right.

Instead they give him a pat on the back, and tell him he'll be fine (which they have no way of knowing).

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Dave,

Not that I would put money on it, but I think the 30 was a stretch. I had talked to the TI once I realized it was happening. They were lurks at a distance. To my knowledge anyway, he hasn't actually videoed a tandem. I agree, and so did the TI after we talked, that he should not have let me lurk.

That said, he has done and seen what he has done and seen. He has started videoing 2 and 3 ways and some canopy flight. RWS answered me a couple of years ago that if a TI renews with USPA they did not have to renew with them and could follow USPA's video recommendations. He should have all of them done prior to their even being an opening.


I am not totally useless, I can be used as a bad example.

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I wonder why people seem to think that merely looking at someones profile over the internet they are more qualified to judge someones skill level for activity X, than those (in this case TI´s and DZO´s) who know the person and have seen him fly.


The answer is: Obviously his profile describes his skill level and knowledge because of his question. "camera suit or wings?". Before you start working with tandems these things should be sorted out. He should have enough experince to know what kind of suit works the best for him. But he doesn't... So he should stay away from the tandems while he doesn't have all the answers about camera flying.
The good thing is he asked a question. ...of course the answer wasn't what he wanted to hear.

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Let the Insturctors and other mentors at the DZ decide who is capable of doing what. They are the only ones who have the necessary info for making these decisions..


The answer for that is the "business aspect of the game" unfortunatelly allows to make very bad decisions!!! I have video (from the ground) when the TM/I pulled so low the AAD fired on him! The "positeve judgement" of it was he was back doing tandems 20min later!!! If it was up to me he should have lost his rating in that very moment when the AAD fired. ...Yes he's an "instructor" because a piece of paper states that, but who knows him from close they all know he's a "wanna be yahoo". And he gives out advices too... (the aad fire wasn't his only f%^&k up though).

The bottom end is 200 (even 3-400) jump is way too little experince to work in the tandem business.
...but what a F*&^k do I know???

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The answer is: Obviously his profile describes his skill level and knowledge because of his question. "camera suit or wings?". Before you start working with tandems these things should be sorted out. He should have enough experince to know what kind of suit works the best for him. But he doesn't... So he should stay away from the tandems while he doesn't have all the answers about camera flying.
The good thing is he asked a question. ...of course the answer wasn't what he wanted to hear.



The way I see it, no one can have "all the answers about camera flying" before they even start doing it. Thats absurd IMO. We learn new things all the time. No one is born with all the answers. IMO asking advice about camera suit, does not necessarily mean the OP is not ready to start learning these things. Knowing everything and being ready to start learning are two different things.

In fact I do think it suggests a enthusiastic attitude that hes finding out answers to these questions in early stage.

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The answer for that is the "business aspect of the game" unfortunatelly allows to make very bad decisions!!! I have video (from the ground) when the TM/I pulled so low the AAD fired on him! The "positeve judgement" of it was he was back doing tandems 20min later!!! If it was up to me he should have lost his rating in that very moment when the AAD fired. ...Yes he's an "instructor" because a piece of paper states that, but who knows him from close they all know he's a "wanna be yahoo". And he gives out advices too... (the aad fire wasn't his only f%^&k up though).

The bottom end is 200 (even 3-400) jump is way too little experince to work in the tandem business.
...but what a F*&^k do I know???



I understand what you are saying. However, I still think the DZO´s and TI´s have better judgement over ones ability compared to someone judging the matter over internet. Ofcourse it is possible that even they might make bad calls on these issues. I still wouldnt question their judgement before I have personally seen something more concretic than just a profile in DZ.com.

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RWS answered me a couple of years ago that if a TI renews with USPA they did not have to renew with them and could follow USPA's video recommendations.



Well, Todd, I learned something today! That is one more aspect of Tandem "certification" being taken over by USPA that may need further discussion.

Assuming that what you heard from them is "official", it seems "some manufacturer" was concerned enough about safety to require a fairly high jump number to video tandems, but is much less concerned now that USPA is taking over more of the responsibility.

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