tandem video fights

[northern 0]

have any other professional tandem photographers had problems on their dz with every one wanting to do tandem videos.


we are second year with a turbine and now there are starting to be arguments about jumps and money and whos who and headaches....im sure its happened before.


what have been remedies for this and what do other dz have a minimum requirements.

do most dz have aminimum 500 jump and c lisence and .....

any feedback would be awesome

change your break lines. for the love of your femurs.

[freefalle 0]

Im not sure I understand what you are asking. There shouldn't be any fighting. The dzo or a person he/she picks hires videographers. the staff videographers show up for work and go into a rotation when its their turn they go video tandems, it should be that simple. DZ's should have minimum reqiurements for videographers i.e. what is required by the gear manufacture. Most of the DZ's I've worked for require to see a sample of your video work in order to see if your work is up to standard.

hope that helps?

[VideoFly 0]

With a regular turnover of videographers at our DZ, due to military transfers, people moving, disillusionment with flying a camera, and people moving on, it has been a constant challenge to keep training videographers. Even with that, on any given day, usually one or several videographers don’t make it to work because they have other weekend plans. This time of year, with work slowing down, we do have days where there are more camera flyers than work. That is part of the deal. For me, I am trying to slow down a bit as I move through my 50’s and work full time anyway. Therefore, I don’t mind giving work to others. Right now, while we have five camera flyers, I expect that in the near future, we will lose several to military transfers. The bottom line is that at our DZ you need to prove you are well qualified to be able to shoot video. With that said, the rotation of work occurs on a first come basis, with those with lots of energy and extra gear being able to do back-to-back loads. If you have other concerns, speak with your DZO, manager, and/or manifest personnel.

[DSE 3]

Haven't seen "fighting" but have seen rotations where a DZO or DZM has "favorite" guys and will put them in front of more senior, experienced, or full-time camera flyers that he doesn't drink beers with on Saturday nights....

It's tough to keep people in the queue that have experience, and I suspect it's harder at small DZ's where you see a typical progression of:
GOT MY A! (now I'm gonna freefly until I have 100 jumps

101 Jumps-Start to fly camera (but not with tandems (wink, wink)

500 Jumps-Now I'm gonna get my tandem rating, no more video with tandems for me!

Somewhere in there, they might get their AFFI, too...but point is, some folks are always looking for a paid skydive, which is fine, but with out a fairly strict DZ policy of who gets to do what...I can see how it might become a political playground.

[davelepka 4]

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rotations where a DZO or DZM has "favorite" guys and will put them in front of more senior, experienced, or full-time camera flyers that he doesn't drink beers with on Saturday nights....

As much as that sucks, it's the DZOs place, and he makes the final call about who gets what.

Keeping that in mind, anyone with an interest in working at any DZ needs to have a sit down with the DZO before they make any work jumps. You are entering into a business agreement with this person, and both parties need to clearly understand the expectations of the other.

Of course, there will always be the DZOs who will change the rules on you after the fact, and use the "It's my DZ, my rules" defense. At that point your best move is to get out of doing business with that guy.

[talon1206 0]

I have seen the bickering before, but the DZO put a stop to it. I know how the high turn over of military jumpers is hard to deal with (being a military jumper/videographer) but as long as there are set standards to the video rotation there shouldn't be a problem. At SNM the manifester will build the video rotation based on students requests (video only or video and stills) and the instructors needs. Some days I would do 8 videos other days just 1.

"Pilots without Maintainers are just pedestrians with cool jackets and sunglasses"

[jtval 0]

Yet, another reason why I LOVE Skydive Mesquite.

There was no bickering.
I learned to fly video there and by the time I left I was the primary videot. Not because of my skill (which by the time I left was fine) but because of my willingness and availability.
I was up there every weekend. I totally loved to hang out there. I used the money I made to give back to the dz (and pay for my fun jumps)

The great thing was since I didn't rely on that money for my bills I was more than happy to:
-have other people there who were willing to film.
-agree with the DZO's choice of videots.
Sometimes there was someone who needed money and had the skill to fly so I would go goof off all day.
Very often I offered friends and family discounts.

I.E. If someone brought friends and fam I would do my part for free. Usually it was a barter system.

I guess what your DZO needs to do is take control of the situation.

The person who is at the dz all the time should end up being the GO-TO-GUY (or GIRL) for Video.
If one videot shows up once a month and expects to get in the rotation when the other 2 videots are up there all the time and there's only enough to support 2 videots...guess what?

As the DZO the decision should be that Johnny latecomer loses unless the other two are ok with stepping out

We were all friends at my DZ so if someone got there late and needed money for bills I would step aside. The whole idea is to make the video about the STUDENT not the videot.

There were A LOT of times I went as 2nd video just so I could shoot the primary videot. We all know that we never get any vid/stills of ourselves.

My opinion is that if you treat it like a job it will feel like one. Do it for the love of the sport, the love of video/photography and do it to share the experience with the student and it will be rewarding.

If the DZO sees that you make a good impression on the student he'll probably use you more.

I acted as an ambassador to the sport and each student was someone who trusted my DZO, his pilots, his instructors and myself to give them what they paid (a lot of money) for.

If all of the video guys at your DZ rely on the work for bills you should all get together with the DZO and try to figure something out.
I'm sure the DZO will want to keep videots on hand.
but at the rate they come and go I'd bet he can cut one loose if his skill and attitude are not up to par.

My photos

My Videos

[jimmytavino 16]

well said....


the rotation concept can work well....In theory...

BUT it does fail to address the issue of Seniority..........

and frankly that can be unfair to those videographers who HAVE "paid their dues" and put in the time and devoted of themselves and their bank accounts,,, to gear up and BE THERE.....consistantly

while i DO appreciate the need for up and comers to be welcome,, and have always tried to be helpful that way... I also remember that when i started i was Always willing to stand down to those camera persons who were there , before me....if for nothing else, than to show I was not a know- it - all or a demanding team member...I figured that at some point,,, my time would come...This was before we went onto a rotation system.... ( which ONLY became necessary when SOME people began grousing about..... " He's getting or She's getting, More work than I'm getting"....


it does help a bit,,,,,When the senior staff people become willing to Share the workload with newcomers and are willing to stand down once in a while... BUT everyone is different...

If there are issues, and mumbling and grumbling by the 'long timers',,,, then that disharmony can really hurt the cameraderie factor on a dz...

it comes down to individuals, being considerite...

just like jtval........

signed
jt..vino

[northern 0]

our dzo doesnt want anything to do with the video or tandem . he wants a smooth running machine.

on that note he will allow a peorson that has no experience jump on a paid load instead of doing spec videos. thus burning the toes of the 2 full time and 5 weekend video flyers that have paid their dues and time in.

what r the requirements your dz has for vidiots.?? anyone have a list?
thanks

change your break lines. for the love of your femurs.

[velocityphoto 0]

So the dzo just lets everyone fight it out and does nothing about it?

A friend will bail you out of jail , a REAL friend will be sitting next to you in the cell slapping your hand saying "DUDE THAT WAS AWSUM " ................

[freefalle 0]

although I've only seen a few DZO's that require a minimum number of jumps, almost everyone I worked at has asked to see 5 or 10 of my video's to see the quality of my work. I think interviewing for a videographer position, or any position on a dz should resemble any job interview including reference checks. Just my .02

Chuck

[jtval 0]

I have only videod at one DZ (and my current job)so my experience may not be a good example.
I had 350(ish) jumps before strapping video on.
I had about 400 before I started jumping tandems.
When I left there were a few newer videots coming up.
None of them had less then 400 jumps.
They had been regulars at the DZ for years. One of them made his first jump at our dz.
Theres enough locals who fly video to qualify (by the numbers) to fly video.


Some are better flyers than others. Some are better at talking with the students. Some are better at using the editing board but they all pull together to get the product put together.


At least that's how it was when I left.
Now that boogie season has started usually there are about 5 regular (seasonal) videots that come to the boogies.


I will say that one time I saw a not so regular videots work and I was not impressed with it.
I spoke to the DZO and he didnt realize it was that bad. I told him about all the weaknesses in the video and show him a clip.

After that he tried to keep the guy as TM instead.
It was all good, the guy got work and the student got good video. The guy wasn't dangerous but he was lacking in the "Keeping them centered" department.

My photos

My Videos

[dqpacker 7]

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our dzo doesnt want anything to do with the video or tandem . he wants a smooth running machine.

Sounds like he wants his dz to fail, " I want a dz but don't want to put any effort into making it run smoothly." That is what it sounds like to me.

[riggerrob 558]

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Our DZO doesn't want anything to do with the video or tandem. He wants a smooth running machine.

.......................................................................

Lazy!

DZs only run smoothly when everyone knows what the standards are and is willing to follow them.

In that case, he should appoint the most experienced vidiot to organize the DZ's video program.
The first step involves setting minimum experience levels (refer to USPA or tandem manufacturers' manuals).
The second phase involves writting a script for tandem videos, including stock footage, maximum and minimum run times and a list of recommended music (eg. no rap music for old white guys). The music list will change every year.

Then the senior vidiot reviews footage taken by every vidiot to decide who meets the minimum standards.

After reviewing vidiot skills, availability, equipment, etc. he enters the political phase of the "senior vidiot" position when he tries to convince every vidiot on the DZ to agree to one standard.
(Hint: the process is as easy as herding cats!)

He/she should write a list (maximum six lines) and nail it to the wall of the video editing room.

The list should say:

1. Who has priority/first refusal
2. Who owns both video and stills
3. Who can do quick turn-arounds (eg. who owns multiple parachutes).
4. Who can best fall with fast, slow, flailing, etc. students (eg. who has the best suit and flying skills)
5. Who can edit their own video (maybe assign one editor to spend the entire day in the editing room).
6. ????

Nail a second copy of the list to the wall beside manifest.

Any vidiot who does not want to follow the program has two options.
First, he can accept assignment as "priority last" on the video rotation.
Second, he can bribe the DZO with booze in an effort to change written policy.

On re-reading my post, it sounds a bit fascist, but I only work at places where I clearly understand standards.

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[980 0]

your lazy comment is unwarranted

I might not entirely agree with the rest of your post either, but it is certainly a valid point of view and a somewhat good system.

For the benefit of those people who do not know the OP or his DZO, let me assure you that all you have to do is read the OP's other posts and ask how he got that cool user icon to get some idea of how valid his post is.

The DZO there is anything but lazy.

Jeff (northern):
Your posts are out of line and not fair to your DZO. I'm almost surprised he keeps staff who broke themselves because they were too cheap/lazy/whatever to do the required maintenance on their brakelines...

Good luck with your downsize too.

[skydiveoc 0]

Better to learn a solid ground game. Chokes and armlocks warrant less liability than striking. Better pull guard and lock in an omoplata. Or better yet, lapel chokes using camera flyer wings. First to tap loses the vid. At least, that what we do.

MMADZ

[pchapman 261]

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The DZO there is anything but lazy.

True, but let's say that he doesn't go into a ton of detail organizing the different groups of staff on the DZ. I don't know exactly how it works as I haven't been there a whole lot.

As for organizing the video flyers, a big thing is to have policies clearly stated. It may be that someone who is full time for the summer is designated as having priority. When people know the policy ahead of time, at least they won't think the DZO is playing favorites or that the jumper is a pushy jerk.

It has been mentioned that some places tend to have a core set of video flyers who are the regulars and so get some priority. One can also do things the other way, where everyone gets into rotation as long as they are an approved part of the team. You show up, you get in rotation. That allows up and comers to get involved in working at the DZ. It also allows those who aren't able to be around all the time to contribute, to get away from the issue of "I quit my job and am a DZ bum so I deserve to do more videos." That may or may not be true depending on circumstances.

It can be a fine line trying to satisfy everyone. The regulars want to be rewarded for being there reliably most weekends, while the more part time don't want to have their big investment in camera and editing equipment (if they had to buy it themselves) go to waste if they are supposedly 'on the team'.

I'm just mentioning the second way as a possibility, not that it is 'better'. It depends somewhat on the DZ. Is the place swarming with people wanting to fly video, so standards can go up more, or is it more important to have a way for more people to progress into part time staff work and thus be encouraged to be out at the DZ and provide replacement video staff down the road?

[MotherGoose 0]

When a little plane DZ gets a big plane, a conflict arises. Normally, each operation has its own structure and rules but the big planes bring big demands. DZO’s are often left with difficult decisions to fill demands for increased business needs. There is no cut and dry answer here, the vidiots just need to talk. There should be some rules but in the end, a DZO needs to get shit going and he can’t worry about hurting everyone’s feelings. Regarding the minimum requirements, I think it’s a moot point. I think most everyone did not follow the recommendations for video flying, including the OP (correct me if I’m wrong Jeff).

During peak season, you need the extra bodies to keep the flow going, and then as soon as it slows down a bit and all the vidiots show up, it seems that’s when the territorial pissings begin. First we’re the ones on the outside looking in, wondering when our chance will come. Then we get our shot and we immediately become the guy shunning the others and hoarding all the work. There is no in-between, I find it so funny. I’m friends with a few of the posters here including the OP and I feel that this must be said, if only to contribute to the dialogue about the causes of these video conflicts. In my very humble and inexperienced opinion as a long-time observer of the political and social relationships at dropzones, I think that when skydivers go “full-time”, that changes the entire dynamic at the dropzone and directly affects the discipline that the “full-timer” partakes in (cam,tandem,packing,etc.). A similar conflict exists with the folks who dedicate every weekend as opposed to those who chose to come once or twice a month. People gain a sense of ownership based on their perception of time devoted and they expect the DZO to defend this dedication. Some DZO’s choose to get involved in this and others prefer to remain oblivious. In the end, you need to realize that this sport/industry, especially in Canada, is not sustainable. Many people have commented on this. If you choose to make a living in the sport (and I’m not saying you shouldn’t), then be prepared for all of the bullshit involved. You will need to put up with a lot of conflict with others that want their piece of the pie. It’s a small community, just talk. Talk with the DZO, talk with the other vidiots and come to an understanding. Shit, maybe even have a meeting (note I said “a” meeting, let’s not overdo it).

One last thing, cameras are cheap and people are getting them sooner and sooner. If you think you have problems now at your local DZ’s, wait another year or two when the next wave of up-and-comers ALL have cameras on their heads at 100 jumps or less .. . . IT WILL HAPPEN. Better have your rules figured out by then.

You think you understand the situation, but what you don't understand, is that the situation just changed.

[DSE 3]

Guys,
let's please keep the topic to general discussion and not be on the attack (or defense) of any specific DZ or DZO?

thank you
The Management

[northern 0]

our dzo is anything but lazy.

i would have to say he ranks among the best.


what im trying to get at is safe and reasonable standards for TANDEM VIDEOS. there are standards for every other form of contact skydiving and Im trying to figure out the norm without pissing anyone off. or starting a fight.

everyone deserves a piece of the pie, dont misunderstand. but everyone should be held and have to start from the same point.

you dont see a person packing tandem rigs that have 200 sport pack jobs but you might see then flying a tandem video with 200 jumps?????

i love my dz and want a safe and relaxed year with the fewest accident and problem as possible.
thanks everyone.

change your break lines. for the love of your femurs.

[davelepka 4]

Figuring out who is safe to work and figuring out which of those guys gets what work are two different things.

In terms of safety, take the most experienced guy you have, and put him in charge of doing check-out dives. The potential video guy will do a two way with the senoir camera guy, shooting video and stills of him. Have the check out guy incorporate fall rate and heading changes, and generally slide around the sky. Include shots of the deployments as well. If a guy can produce quality footage, and the check-out guy feels like it was a safe skydive, you can clear the guy to work at the DZ.

As far as splitting up the work, that's another story. This thread is full of good thoughts, but I think the easiest way to do is for the DZO to sit down and do one of two things - 1. Come up with a system he thinks is fair, put it in writing, and make sure that everyone reads and understands the system - or - 2. Pick a camera flyer, and put him in charge of the video department. This person will then sit down and come up with a system he thinks is fair, put it in writing, and make sure that everyone reads and understands the system.

The bottom line is just that - as long as there is a system in place, it's in writing, and everyone reads and understands it before they start working for the DZ, nobody will have grounds to come back and complain after the fact.

[pms07 3]

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...everyone deserves a piece of the pie, dont misunderstand. but everyone should be held and have to start from the same point...

You are kidding, correct? Are you talking about a business/commercial DZ?

• Quote

[MotherGoose 0]

I'm pretty sure he meant everyone that is qualified, not just everyone. The point of the discussion is what criteria are required for safety and fairness among all of the qualified safe and skilled vidiots.

I like the idea of a single source to set and evaluate the criteria (be it DZO or lead vidiot). Standardization is the key. It brings up another point where different people at the same dropzones, with completely different video styles. This has been known to cause problems because inevitabley, one will be better than the other and if you get a group of friends show up for tandem with vid, you can bank on a complaint if one video is "awesome" and the other is merely ok. While its fun to have each camera flyer add their own personal touch or trademark, overall the vids should be standardized. Or maybe I'm way off base here ?

You think you understand the situation, but what you don't understand, is that the situation just changed.

[davelepka 4]

I think you answered your own question in your post. Standards are for more than just in-air safety, they have to be applied to a persons skill as a camera man both in and out of freefall.

Let's face it, each video will present different opportunities for the camera flyer. Type of, and location in the plane, time of day, instructor, sky conditions, etc, will all play factors in what the final product will look like.

As long as the camera guy is attentive to composition and framing, lighting, and continuity of shots (taking the end of the previous shot and the begining of the next shot into account while planning the current shot), then the video will be of good quality.

Even the same camera guy will not produce the EXACT same video two jumps in a row. Factors outside of his control will prevent this, and customers need to understand that this is an 'artistic' product, and it's a record of a dynamic event. As long as you adhere to the basics of good camera technique, the customer will have no basis to complain. They may do it anyway, but at least you can defend your work.

[DSE 3]

If speed of edit/delivery is part of the "standards" process, then IMO, you want camera ops shooting the same things regardless of skill.

Example; you have a mad skills freeflyer that shoots every angle up/down/sideways and the student isn't always in the shot during transition, but overall, the video isn't bad.
You have a bellyflyer that can shoot below/above/side angles, never once losing the student, and he has a set series of angles.
Both students are on the same load.
Student A wonders because she's upside down, out of frame for a second, and only has a super-fast deployment shot compared to student B.

Additionally, Student A's freefly monster likes to hear himself speak. He goes on for 2-4 minutes looking at camera, speaking to the student through the camera and occasionally showing student as he talks to camera.
Student B gets a "template" walk up, interview, brief B roll, walk to aircraft, in-aircraft interview, jump, and post-jump interview.

Student A solicits a person to come to the dropzone and they end up specifying they want Student B's camera flyer because Student A's camera flyer was so talky, and totally into his own voice.

Editor can't stand the first camera flyer, because there is no consistency; he talks for 4 mins for the ladies, and talks to the camera for 30 seconds for the guys, making the video a bit harder to drop into a template.

The above are true stories and the names have been omitted to protect the participants, right Chris?

Standard shot sequences are the staple of any high-turnover event video flow, in or out of skydiving. IMO, leave the overtly creative stuff to the fun jumps and year-end reel.