0
danielshadwick

Getting into camera flying.

Recommended Posts

Since the day I did my first jump I've been VERY intrested in flying camera. Besides jumping I own a camera (pc350) and love using it. But I only have 100 jumps. An instructor I respect, and has watched my progression since AFF told me "I should get into it now". I have a pretty significant amount of tunnel time and I'm starting to learn head-down. Right now I just want to do point-of-view type filming nothing too complicated.

Should I wait until I have 200 jumps like the USPA recommends?[:/]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Should I wait until I have 200 jumps like the USPA recommends?[:/]



Yes, you should wait? had your first cut away yet how about your first off dz landing or how about your first "close call" with someone in the air not paying attention to what they are doing. get a feel for how bad shit can get when shit goes bad. pinning that camera helmet to your pumpkin changes the focus of your skydive....
Just my thoughts, whatever you decide be safe.

Chuck

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Please make sure you are highly proficient at RW jumping and are sure that you have handled floating outside a plane during rough rides, RW problems, canopy problems, close-call canopy openings near other canopies, reserve rides, and off landings in bad weather into tight places before you are too confident. Also, read the sticky above this post, search the forums, and talk with other videographers with more experience about flying with a camera. Flying video can be accomplished by many jumpers when everything goes according to plan, however, with the added distraction of cameras and unexpected occurrences on the ground, in the plane, and in the air, to say the least, things can get very interesting, very fast. On the other hand, there are a lot of very experienced camera flyers around who may have started flying cameras before they should have. For us, we have learned many valuable lessons on the job. We are the ones who typically advise others to wait. While we have managed through some potentially dangerous moments, we have also realized the value of preparation. Also, we are probably the least likely skydivers to want to see others learn those lessons the hard way. With whatever you decide, be careful and be safe.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Should I wait until I have 200 jumps like the USPA recommends?



Or maybe even longer.
There is a video somewhere around here of a "tunnel god" that was nearly killed by another "tunnel god" when both of them had around 100 jumps, and were jumping with a tandem, one of the tunnel gods being in the camera slot.

It's not jump numbers, and it's only flying skill to a degree by comparison, IMO. It's having the air-experience and the mental acuity to be able to 'think ahead' of problems and be able to see them coming before they happen.
Bomb420 was directly above a premature, and got some incredible footage of it before it got to the point of nailing him, simply because he saw it coming before the PC was completely out of the BOC. Would you be able to recognize that? Had he not been mentally alert, it could easily have ended up with two injured (or worse) skydivers. Even the team members were stunned to see the premie.

Those are just two small examples, neither of which terribly relate to skills or flying ability, but rather the experience that only comes with air-time. Making good decisions is part of being a safe skydiver, IMO, and one of those first decisions is how you manage whether you follow recommendations or not.
It's not so much about what "you can get away with" as much as it is "When won't you get away with it."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Okay thanks for the advice, but I'm still not convinced. When I had fewer jumps I got advice that I should wait to start freeflying. Maybe I was just lucky in the past but in hindsight I feel like that advice may have been a little over protective and may have slowed my progression.
In this sport I understand that most advice is good but the extremity of the sport sometimes brings overprotective advice[:/]. And thats no funB|.
I admit that my next statement is from an ignorant point of view but: I don't plan on flying a "camera slot" I just want to see again what I experience on the weekends. I usually do two way freefly jumps and solos. I don't want to be distracted by trying to get the "perfect shot". That might get in the way of the funB|.
Why is RW experience important? I'm pretty good at proximity flying but I'm a freeflyer.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

I admit that my next statement is from an ignorant point of view



Yep. That says it best.

Quote

but: I don't plan on flying a "camera slot" I just want to see again what I experience on the weekends.



You obviously haven't read a lot of what has been written on this forum (including, I think, in the sticky). The complications of adding a camera are multiple, regardless of whether you are flying a "camera slot" or doing "point-of-view type filming nothing too complicated..."

If you jump with a camera, you WILL think about it lot, and that will take precious inexperienced brain energy away from the rest of the skydive; where it is needed most. Particularly at this stage in your jumping.

Re-read Doug's comment about following recommendations.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Okay thanks for the advice, but I'm still not convinced.



I say go for it dude, go get your set up together without seeking advice here on how to build it and shut up and jump it already! You sound no different then the other 100 jump wonders who many of us seen come & go.

What's the worst thing that could happen? Kill yourself or maybe some other lowtimer retard who is stupid enough to let you film them, really not that big a risk your already throwing yourself at the earth and hoping to miss, what could really go wrong, the odds are in your favor. No reason you should listen to all these old stuffed shirts like DSE & Phil, who only try to feed you BS to keep you from getting their share of the video money.

Besides that, with out all the stupid people in the sport today we wouldn't have any entertainment.
you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Should I wait until I have 200 jumps like the USPA recommends?

Why ask if you don't want to hear the answer?

In this sport I understand that most advice is good but the extremity of the sport sometimes brings overprotective advice. And thats no fun.

Have funB|

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Okay thanks for the advice, but I'm still not convinced.



Then don't be surprised when you next post here and people either mess with you, or won't answer your serious question.

Quote

When I had fewer jumps I got advice that I should wait to start freeflying. Maybe I was just lucky in the past but in hindsight I feel like that advice may have been a little over protective and may have slowed my progression.


Gotcha!! Now I understand, you have MAD SKILLZ. We mere mortals have seen a few of these kind come and go, and seen a couple*really go.*
What a shame the entire world has conspired against thee to slow thy progression when others of your skin have passed before you and hath perished. Sayeth they before, "I'm pretty good."



Quote


Why is RW experience important? I'm pretty good at proximity flying but I'm a freeflyer.



And in that one question right there, you reveal more than you ever meant or wanted to let people here know about you.
Anyone who feels they can run a marathon but don't see the importance of walking first is a fool.
In your case, if you can't belly fly really well, relative to others, stay out of the air near others, and especially stay the fuck out of the air with a camera on your head. You're a danger to others thinking belly skills aren't important but that you're a "good" freeflier.
You're not far from Eloy; go hang out with Omar, Amy, Sara, Jason, or Curtis. Show them (world champ freefliers) how mad your skills are, and ask them about flying a camera. They'll all put you on your belly.
Dance starts with running starts with walking starts with crawling starts with muscle training. It's all about having a place to go back to when the world flies to shit,
you can't even walk yet.

Quote

I admit that my next statement is from an ignorant point of view but:



See all of the above. In this case, "ignorant=arrogant." We've all been there. It only gets worse between 200 and 7-800 jumps. I know, because I was once there too and harsh mentors here at at DZ's other than my own helped me to figure that out. At least know I know when to know I don't know all the answers.
Further, you'll come back to this post one day and regret the attitude you've displayed towards recommendations, the words of experienced skydivers, and the common sense that initiated the question in the first place.
Merry Holiday/Happy Christmas/Festivus.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Overprotective advice?? Hmmm, it sounds pretty much like your going to jump a camera anyways,and just waiting for someone like you with no experience either to agree and say oh yea go ahead and do it. So why listen to any of us experienced camera flyers.
Ultimately its your life and hopefully no other innocent peoples.


A friend will bail you out of jail , a REAL friend will be sitting next to you in the cell slapping your hand saying "DUDE THAT WAS AWSUM " ................

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

to the OP[:/]


it's not a one hundred yard DASH

it's a marathon...:)
all things in GOOD time....
and nothing before it is Time...

no one is trying to step on your enthusiasm, ( at least, I am not ) but merely trying to ALERT you, to the true complexity of camera flying..and those who say " It ain't No big deal"
"ain't never done it".....:P

It IS complex,
but when approached with a good sensible attitude,,
it is NOT complicated...

and a large part of that sensible attitude includes having the ability to restrain ourselves from rash and hasty behaviors....and a willingness to listen to others...

If nothing else,, this sport oughtta be teaching us Patience......
tread carefully and you'll last a long time....
jump into certain aspects of our sport NOW NOW NOW,,,, Quick Quick Quick !!!!.... and it could become
.... "QuickSAND":|

enjoy yourself AND skydive safely...

jmy:)
safety first.... and what the hell,,, safety second too...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I saw another thread you posted and it said your mother has 1700 jumps.
Ask your mom what she thinks huh?
And i see you made your 100th jump middle of november and you have only made 2 jumps since then for a total of 102 over a 3 year period Hmmm it would seem to me you are not current .If i only made 34 jumps a year i wouldn't dream of putting a camera on my head. As far as tunnel time i don't even think it counts towards flying a camera.
Take your "time" your young and have plenty of it, if you do things right. :)


A friend will bail you out of jail , a REAL friend will be sitting next to you in the cell slapping your hand saying "DUDE THAT WAS AWSUM " ................

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I gotta say DSE it seems hard to take advice from you. Try to be more informative rather than shitting on my question. You say im arrogant about my skills but it sounds more like your looking to glorify your skillz (which looks like you have alot of)rather than give advice.

"If you can't fly belly really well, relative to others, stay out of the air" ?????

I had a question about the importance of RW. Who said I can't belly fly relative to others?

When I got the advice to be proficient in RW I assumed they meant learning 4way routines 'n' shit? I could spend all day replying to your post but i'm a little confused and I think were a little off track.

My question is: Why is flying in proximity on your belly important for safety when flying camera? I understand it's important when trying to film a subject, but thats not important to me. I wouldn't mind fiming a few solos or high pulls.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

cool...

by then the cost of High Def camcorders

will likely DROP>>>> about 50 percent...

sorta like high def TVs have done ;);)..

and when you're ready..... there may even be quality HD equipment. small enough to side mount...B|:)

impatience is just temptation...
giving in to that temptation,,,,,
is what CAN be a bitch:ph34r::D:P:)
enjoy the skydives, be willing to learn, and you'll do GREAT...just as you've already demonstrated...:)
j

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I've spent the past month around a couple people who can't pass the AFFI course because they've spent 800 jumps on their butt and never bothered learning to fly on their belly.
But they fly "really, really well" except for that darn belly thing....

If you're freeflying "really well in proximity to others" at your jump numbers, then you likely haven't spent much time on your belly in the air. Skydiving is different than tunnel flying. I spent a lot of time in the tunnel too, learning moves entirely related to camera flying, and it did prep me well, but it didn't replace the actual skydives.
Relative work means flying relative. Maybe it's relative to a four way, maybe it's relative to a spaceball. Maybe it's relative to a tandem.

I haven't met anyone who "did really well" at anything t 102 jumps. Except me, of course. And then I learned the hard way how full of myself and how full of shit I really was. It wasn't until around 500-600 jumps that I realized how badly I flew compared to the people I wanted to emulate. Maybe you're different.

And all that said, I didn't shit on your question, but rather answered your points straight on.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote



My question is: Why is flying in proximity on your belly important for safety when flying camera?reply]

It isn't important when flying camera.... It is important "PERIOD"

I can understand your eagerness, as these experienced camera fliers have said, wait a bit, slow down. I started flying camera at about 170 jumps, ive only got 260 now, and even been offered a camera slot at a DZ local to me. They offered me the training and advice I need to get my skills up to scratch to film tandems and AFF etc... I've done some training there and filmed a dozen or so tandems. I thought this is great getting my jumps paid for me, all this experience is awesome! You know what, I've given it all up. This fantastic opportunity I've just blown away. The reason why.... Because there is so much to think about, so much pressure, whether you are filming a customer or just for fun. Flying camera is f*cking dangerous, I started to forget the basics and luckily recognized before I f*cked up totally.

Listen to these guys, even if you don't like them or what they have to say... They speak the truth! I won't give any advice or say what you should or shouldn't do. Look, Listen and take heed. Don't make mistakes the hard way. I havent got the experience, but be grown up enough to realize that this sport isn't just about you! Keep your ears and eyes open and mouth shut.

Enjoy, the freedom we all here have been blessed with, you'll know when the time is right to stick a camera on your noggin!

Blue skies all!
Mart

"When I left school I couldn't even spell skydiver. Now I are one!"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

I gotta say DSE it seems hard to take advice from you. Try to be more informative rather than shitting on my question. You say im arrogant about my skills but it sounds more like your looking to glorify your skillz (which looks like you have alot of)rather than give advice.

"If you can't fly belly really well, relative to others, stay out of the air" ?????

I had a question about the importance of RW. Who said I can't belly fly relative to others?

When I got the advice to be proficient in RW I assumed they meant learning 4way routines 'n' shit? I could spend all day replying to your post but i'm a little confused and I think were a little off track.

My question is: Why is flying in proximity on your belly important for safety when flying camera? I understand it's important when trying to film a subject, but thats not important to me. I wouldn't mind fiming a few solos or high pulls.



He might be shitting on your question because alot of low number jumpers are coming on here saying they want to fly a camera, a still camera and a small crazy canopy....everyone trys to tell them about how dangerous it is and how people die and get hurt because you low jump number guys wont listen to people like him..

i was almost one of them...i regret not listening to them....


One week he sees someone posting something like your post about how they want to fly a camera with 100 jumps...or jumping a highly wingloaded canopy with 100 jumps....and next week or next month guess what.....THEY ARE ON THE FATALITY LIST.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
200 is the MIN. to fly camera. That does not mean that you or anyone esle is really ready. The guys above have a lot of experience at this.

Why is it so important to you to fly with a camera?

The next question is why cant you wait for that?
Never give the gates up and always trust your rears!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Okay thanks for the advice, but

NO THANKS ( Fixed that for you)


I'm still not convinced. When I had fewer jumps I got advice that I should wait to start freeflying. Maybe I was just lucky in the past but in hindsight I feel like that advice may have been a little over protective and may have slowed my progression

OR MAY BE THEY WANTED YOU TO FLY MORE ON YOUR BELLY


In this sport I understand that most advice is good but the extremity of the sport sometimes brings overprotective advice[:/]. And thats no funB|.

WELL WHEN EVERY JUMP COULD BE YOUR LAST . DO YOU THINK IT SHOULD BE ANY OTHER WAY


I admit that my next statement is from an ignorant point of view but: I don't plan on flying a "camera slot" I just want to see again what I experience on the weekends. I usually do two way freefly jumps and solos. I don't want to be distracted by trying to get the "perfect shot". That might get in the way of the funB|.

AND IT WILL HAPPEN. IT HAPPENS TO THE BEST OF CAMERA FLIERS

IF YOU ARE FLYING SOLO WHY DO YOU NEED A CAMERA?
I am all for camera flying. I think you should wait until at least 200. I understand you have tunnel time. Jumping out of planes is totally different. Tunnels are a controlled environment. In the air god knows what can happen and to give your self a fighting chance keep the camera off your head for awhile. Good luck and stay safe!

***
Never give the gates up and always trust your rears!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Imagine having your first cutaway with a camera on your head...one of the first few times you have jumped it.....your rsl is still connected.....as you cut away the main the reserve comes right out.....your head was in the wrong position since you didnt remember or know what to do with your head.....next thing you know you got lines wrapped around your helmet....you cut the helmet away but its too late......:(

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
>When I got the advice to be proficient in RW I assumed they meant learning
>4way routines 'n' shit?

Knowing what a phalanx is isn't important. Being able to put yourself on the front of a phalanx is.

>Why is flying in proximity on your belly important for safety when flying camera?

Because it may save your life, and the lives of the people you jump with.

If you are filming a bigway, and cannot stay in your slot, you risk getting over the top and falling on them (can be deadly) or getting far away from them and being a hazard on breakoff (also deadly.)

If you are filming a 4-way, and they dart under you, you have to dart back out of the way at least as fast as they can move (and newer 4-way teams can move _fast._) Likewise, if their fallrate slows way down, you have to be able to pop up to avoid a collision. These are not skills you can learn doing solos.

If you are filming your friend, he may do something unexpected and you'll have to get out of his way. This is all the more important because with camera you are far less likely to see it coming, since you'll be concentrating on the shot. (And please don't claim you won't do that; you will. Everyone does.)

If you are jumping solo, then flying relative to someone isn't all that important. But you also don't learn much.

Learn the basics first (relative work, canopy control, freeflying if you plan to video freeflyers) and THEN put a camera on your head. Learn when it's easy so you can apply what you learned when it's not so easy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote


If you are filming your friend, he may do something unexpected and you'll have to get out of his way. This is all the more important because with camera you are far less likely to see it coming, since you'll be concentrating on the shot. (And please don't claim you won't do that; you will. Everyone does.)



I want to expand on this one a bit more.. I 100% agree with Bill here, in fact I am going to push it a bit FURTHER.. your friend WILL do something you don't expect.
2 ways (a "simple" skydive to get some shots for your friend's website or something) is one of the trickiest skydives you do as a camera guy because:

- People do things they think look cool

- People will fly closer than needed
As an example, you need to be 10 ft back for the shot YOU want.. he decides he wants to geek the camera... you better know how to take care of this.
SPECIALLY when you are moving back in for the close up shot after you took the "panoramic" shot.
- newer freefliers flail, and there is no tunnel instructor to grab them.. they will cork up / fly sideways etc. Your tunnel time does NOT help in that scenario, cause you've been flying in a small space.

- People FLY DIFFERENT when they know there's a camera around. SPECIALLY newer jumpers.. they start geeking, doing wild things, unexpected things.. etc.

All the above can be reduced by having a clear dive plan before getting on the plane, when someone asks me for photos / videos of their jump, I sit them down and I talk through what would look good, what to do, what not to do and I am able to tell people "that wont look good" if they suggest "cool moves"

In short.. get your flying experience up, so you understand the dynamics of being in the sky with other people a LOT better before slapping on a camera or even multiple cameras (video + stills)

To the original poster:

We're here to help you out, you ask us a question, we'll give you an honest answer (at least I will) but attitudes / arrogance turns me off and I will stop trying to teach you anything.. cause if you are THAT good, I don't need to tell you anything right?
Honestly, take a step back enjoy flying with your friends and geek their cameras and ask them for the footage after you land, I can guarantee you will watch the footage with a MUCH bigger smile when you are in it than when you're the videographer (or flailing misile with a videocamera on your helmet)

Have fun out there and be safe.... make another 100 jumps without a camera please..

From my logbook:
jump 451: 1st jump with a video camera

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
+1 to DSE's advice. And I don't consider myself a "camera flier".

I'll share my story because it sounds like yours. I put on a camera helmet at 140 jumps. I made a point of being sneaky about it because I knew that the folks at my DZ would be annoyed (rightly so) that I was jumping it prior to having 200. I figured, "hey, I'm just taking point of view footage, what's the big deal?"

It was a dumb idea.

First, I got crappy footage. Second, it does add complexity to the skydive, and it is a distraction - even for folks with "mad skillz".

Third and most imporant, it almost - by all accounts should have - killed me, because I was too inexperienced to handle a malfunction better.

Want the full story? I jumped and had an camera/brake line entanglement in a spinning line twist. The spinning line twist would have been my first cutaway, so I was freaked out. However, I didn't even realize at first that the line was entangled on my helmet, because I was so tweaked out over my spinning line twist. I tried to move my head, but couldn't - but wasn't experienced enough to put two and two together. Instead, I cutaway the canopy - and the helmet ripped off of my head as the canopy departed. If I was experienced, I would have cutaway the helmet, then (maybe) fought the line twist before cutting away. By any estimate, I should be dead with a broken neck. You seem like a nice guy - I wouldn't wish that on you.

So, in short, try not to violate Skwrl's First Law of Skydiving: Thou shalt not be a dumbass. Wait a few more jumps. You'll be much happier if you take your time.

BTW, I wasn't saying you were behaving like a dumbass - I was saying I was. I'm a jerk, but not that big of a jerk.
Skwrl Productions - Wingsuit Photography

Northeast Bird School - Chief Logistics Guy and Video Dork

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

0