430EX or 580EX

[mnealtx 0]

You can reduce power on the 580 because it produces more light than the 430. A lower power setting means a faster recycle time vs. a full power pop.

Think about why you can get almost a full f/stop more performance out of the 580 at the same distance and it becomes obvious.

If it DOESN'T become obvious, well....

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[BMFin 0]

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You can reduce power on the 580 because it produces more light than the 430. A lower power setting means a faster recycle time vs. a full power pop.

If that would be the case then the both flashes would need to have the same recycle time at 1/1 manual setup.

But they dont.

1/1 manual takes 3,7 seconds for 430 to recycle
and
1/1 manual takes 6,0 seconds for 580 to recycle

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Think about why you can get almost a full f/stop more performance out of the 580 at the same distance and it becomes obvious.

If it DOESN'T become obvious, well....

Sure you can get more power from the 580, but then it also needs more recycle time

Isn´t it obvious ?

[freeflydrew 0]

I'm selling a 550ex if anyone is interested...

[PhreeZone 15]

Here is the thing.. to get the same power as the 430 EX on 1/1 you can run closer to 1/2 on the 580 II. This half power reduction allows the 580 to cycle faster then the 430 at the same power output in watts. Here are charts showing the GN's of the 580 II and 430 showing that the distance is almost halved between the two flashes (light falls off at the square): http://emmett-photography.blogspot.com/2008/05/guide-numbers-canon-580ex-ii-and-430ex.html

For low light fill it would not matter, for more first light needed it does.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[BMFin 0]

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Here is the thing.. to get the same power as the 430 EX on 1/1 you can run closer to 1/2 on the 580 II. This half power reduction allows the 580 to cycle faster then the 430 at the same power output in watts.

Where do you get the idea that 1/2 power with the 580 EX demands less energy than 1/1 power with 430 ? Im pretty sure they demand the same amount of electrical power.

I think this is exactly what is causing the dillusion. It would maby be easier to understand the idea if we would divide the power scale of these two flashes in numbers from 1 to 15

Now, the

-580 can produce lightpower between 1 to 15
-430 can produce lightpower between 1 to 11

To produce 15 units of light it takes for the 580 6 seconds to recycle.

To produce 11 units of light it takes for the 430 3.7 seconds to recycle.

All this evidence we know for a fact, suggests that to produce 11 units of light it takes the 580 also around 3,7 seconds to recycle.

You cannot compare 1/2 with the 580 and 1/2 with the 430 since they produce different amount of light.

If you run 580 @ 1/2 power I believe it takes about the same time to recycle for it as it does with the 430 to recycle 1/1

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Here are charts showing the GN's of the 580 II and 430 showing that the distance is almost halved between the two flashes (light falls off at the square): http://emmett-photography.blogspot.com/2008/05/guide-numbers-canon-580ex-ii-and-430ex.html

For low light fill it would not matter, for more first light needed it does.

Im sure those charts are correct, however they dont tell us anything about the recycle times..

All we know for a fact is that:

-580 takes 6 sec for 1/1 recycle

- 430 takes 3,7 seconds for 1/1.

-We also now know that 1/1 power with 430 is about the same lightpower as 1/2 power with the 580. That goes together pretty well with the fact that 1/1 takes almost twice as long to recycle with the 580 as it takes 430 to recycle 1/1. Therefore most propably 1/2 takes about the same time to recycle on the 580 as 1/1 takes on the 430.

Make sense now ?

[Skydave103 0]

Let me get this straight.
If the 430 is set at 1/1 the recycle time is faster than 580 but it is putting out less light at full power than the 580 is.

If the 580 is set to 1/2 power the light would be approximate to the 430 at 1/1 and the recycle time on the 580 is going to be faster since it isnt using all the power stored in the capacitor.

So if I run the 580 at 1/2 power i will approximately get the light of the 430 with a faster recycle time.?!

These are APPROXIMATES.

So back to the original question,

If I want to use a flash in freefall to get the most fill shots (with enough light to make it worth my while) I will need to buy the 580 and run it approx at 1/2 power or less(depending on my other settings) I should be able to get 30-40 shots just in freefall.

correct me if I am wrong but only if I am WAY off.

Dave

LifeshouldNOTbeajourneytothegravewithawellpreservedbody,buttskidinsideways,cigarinone hand,martiniintheother,bodythoroughlyused upandscreaming:"WOO HOO!! What a ride!!!"

[BMFin 0]

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Let me get this straight.
If the 430 is set at 1/1 the recycle time is faster than 580 but it is putting out less light at full power than the 580 is.

If the 580 is set to 1/2 power the light would be approximate to the 430 at 1/1 and the recycle time on the 580 is going to be faster since it isnt using all the power stored in the capacitor.

and the recycle time on the 580 is going to be about equally fast.

It is only guesswork to say that the capacitor of the 580 would be any bigger. What is bigger in the 580 is the light bulb. Actually the brightness of the light is always the same with every setting. Only the duration of the flash light is the variable when changing "the power of the flash" It varies between microseconds how long the flash will be emitted. Anyhow the actuall brighness of 1/1 setting in 580 is the same as 1/32 setting in 580.

And even if the capacitor would be bigger, even then it wouldnt matter much if you are shooting the flash constantly as we do in freefall. Once the capacitor is empty after 1 or 2 shots it doesnt matter even if you would have infinite capacitor after that... What matters after that is what kind of power source you have and how efficient is the flash in using the power.

It also depends a lot what kind of power source you use. With Alkaline batteries you get least current, NiMh batteries will provide much more and NiCd will provide most.. (but this is another topic actually)

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So if I run the 580 at 1/2 power i will approximately get the light of the 430 with a faster recycle time.?!

No. You will most likely get about the same light with the same recycle time

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So back to the original question,
If I want to use a flash in freefall to get the most fill shots (with enough light to make it worth my while) I will need to buy the 580 and run it approx at 1/2 power or less(depending on my other settings) I should be able to get 30-40 shots just in freefall.

correct me if I am wrong but only if I am WAY off.

Dave

If u use the 580 in 1/2 it is quite powerfull. I have not yet mounted my flash to my helmet so I cant tell you how much power u actually need in freefall normally.. Someone else can tell about that.

Anyways using normal alkaline batteries it will most likely take 3.7ish seconds to recycle the 580 EX II @ 1/2 setting so you can count how many times you can trigger the flash with this setting. I count about 15 pictures. (using NiMh batteries will improve the times) I doubt you normally need to use so powerfull settings..

Using 1/1 with the 580 EX II would take 6 seconds every shot to recycle if you have a set of fresh alkaline batteries. You can only get less than 10 shots in one jump. Therefore if you need a strong flash you might want to get the batterypack and maby a second flash also.

In freefall the 430 can basically do the same things as the 580 as long as you would keep the power levels under 1/2 with your 580.

In ground photography the 580 is much more versatile since you can use it as a master flash to trigger slave flashes such as the 430. There are also lots of things the 580 can do better, but most of them wont matter so much in freefall, though the possibility of using battery pack is a big plus also in freefall. On the other hand the 430 is more light weight...

[Skydave103 0]

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In freefall the 430 can basically do the same things as the 580 as long as you would keep the power levels under 1/2 with your 580.

You mean keep the power levels under 1/2 with the 430?

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In ground photography the 580 is much more versatile since you can use it as a master flash to trigger slave flashes such as the 430. There are also lots of things the 580 can do better, but most of them wont matter so much in freefall, though the possibility of using battery pack is a big plus also in freefall. On the other hand the 430 is more light weight...

As long as I have a strong enough battery (NiMh or NiCd) or external power pack the 430 should be sufficient for freefall?

thanks,
Dave

LifeshouldNOTbeajourneytothegravewithawellpreservedbody,buttskidinsideways,cigarinone hand,martiniintheother,bodythoroughlyused upandscreaming:"WOO HOO!! What a ride!!!"

[BMFin 0]

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In freefall the 430 can basically do the same things as the 580 as long as you would keep the power levels under 1/2 with your 580.

You mean keep the power levels under 1/2 with the 430?

No, I mean that if you would anyways use your 580 with less powerfull settings than 1/2, you might as well do the job with the 430. They would both perform the task without much difference.

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As long as I have a strong enough battery (NiMh or NiCd) or external power pack the 430 should be sufficient for freefall?

What is sufficient ? It is up to you. As I said I havent used my flash in freefall, so I cant tell you what kind of settings you would normally use..

The part where the benefit of 580 really comes in in freefall is that you can have the external power supply. With the 430 you cannot use it.

I suggest using NiMh batteries with any kind of flash anyways..

[Zee 0]

Man, that's a lot of bickering.....

The simple answer is to get the most powerful flash you can afford, and use it selectively during your first attempts at jumping with it.

Getting the right settings takes some experimentation since guide numbers don't really apply in freefall as they do on the ground. There is nothing for the light to reflect off of except the subject itself. Settings that look perfect on the ground will end up under exposed in freefall.

The cool thing about a flash is that you know for certain that your shutter fired when the flash goes off. You can take your time framing your subject while taking one picture at a time.

Sure, it kicks ass to have a quick cycling flash set up in freefall, it really does. But, you don't really need it if you just take your time. You've got at least 60 seconds - that's 10 good shots in one skydive if you play your cards right

Action©Sports

[Laszloimage 0]

...wow this thread bacame a pretty long discussion about a very simple question.
The answer is: The 580EX or the EX II is way SUPERIOR compare to the 430EX.
That is just fact as simple as it written above.

[velocityphoto 0]

You said it all in a nut shell . Some people would rather spend a month debating and bickering to save 5 bucks , and end up with shitty results in the end.

A friend will bail you out of jail , a REAL friend will be sitting next to you in the cell slapping your hand saying "DUDE THAT WAS AWSUM " ................

[Skydave103 0]

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You said it all in a nut shell . Some people would rather spend a month debating and bickering to save 5 bucks , and end up with shitty results in the end.

If it was $5 i wouldn't have had to ask, but $100 is a little different. If you feel like ponying up the $100 I will get the 580 and be done with it.

All I was asking is if the 430 was good enough as a fill flash.

LifeshouldNOTbeajourneytothegravewithawellpreservedbody,buttskidinsideways,cigarinone hand,martiniintheother,bodythoroughlyused upandscreaming:"WOO HOO!! What a ride!!!"

[DSE 3]

The 430 is "good enough" if you don't mind not having a flash on the majority of the shots. Takes longer to recycle.
Rather than getting into the numbers, I shot both of them side by side, and the 580 at half recycles about the same as the 430 at full.
If you have a camera shop nearby, just drop in and try it.
BTW, I'm looking for a third 580....great flash. If you see one cheep...I'm there.

[velocityphoto 0]

I picked up my last 580 2 for $350.00 from adorama. Prices on camera shit has sky rocketed since then .The 15mm lens i shoot has went up over 200.00 since i got mine.

A friend will bail you out of jail , a REAL friend will be sitting next to you in the cell slapping your hand saying "DUDE THAT WAS AWSUM " ................

[PhreeZone 15]

I just picked up a 580 II for $350 used off POTN, could have got it for less then $300 if I didn't want the case and the foot for it.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[Skydave103 0]

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The 430 is "good enough" if you don't mind not having a flash on the majority of the shots. Takes longer to recycle.
Rather than getting into the numbers, I shot both of them side by side, and the 580 at half recycles about the same as the 430 at full.
If you have a camera shop nearby, just drop in and try it.
BTW, I'm looking for a third 580....great flash. If you see one cheep...I'm there.

Thank you DSE, that was all I was looking for. simple and to the point.

But I did learn alot with all the technical stuff that was thrown around on this thread.

LifeshouldNOTbeajourneytothegravewithawellpreservedbody,buttskidinsideways,cigarinone hand,martiniintheother,bodythoroughlyused upandscreaming:"WOO HOO!! What a ride!!!"

[BMFin 0]

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The 430 is "good enough" if you don't mind not having a flash on the majority of the shots. Takes longer to recycle.

Personally I would definetly choose the 580 if it was only 100 bucks difference. It is a much better flash overall.

But still it doesnt take longer to recyle. I don´t understand why everyone thinks so..

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the 580 at half recycles about the same as the 430 at full.

Yes, and the "light power" is pretty much equal when the 430 is 1/1 and the 580 is 1/2 so there you said it your self too. They both recycle as fast.

[velocityphoto 0]

Hell i would have given you the case and foot for mine, i have 2 of each.

A friend will bail you out of jail , a REAL friend will be sitting next to you in the cell slapping your hand saying "DUDE THAT WAS AWSUM " ................

[PhreeZone 15]

I got a full set of gels (CTO, greens, Reds, etc) with mine for other uses too so I don't feel too bad about paying a bit more

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com