pchapman 261 #26 November 27, 2011 Quote Under canopy fly straight ahead for as long as possible. The more you turn the more likely you are to hit someone. Certainly flying straight (and with some brakes) gives you a better chance to look around and spot anyone on a converging course. But there are other times where a steady turn might be appropriate: If the people in a group, and separate groups from the same load, did get good separation between where they pulled, then if everyone does steady turns they "stay in place" and avoid each other. It is sort of like having an off heading opening: If two guys in a group get say 90 degree turns or 180 degree turns on opening, they could be shooting towards each other. But if on opening you pop a toggle, that might be bad for you, but at least you are spiralling down in your own little bit of airspace and staying away from others. So if two of us get 300' separation for the pull, if we both randomly fly straight in cloud we might converge. But if we both circle within our own 200' diameter cylinder, we can never collide. Mind you, if we two pull really close, within 100' of each other, a random straight flight is more likely to separate us than bring us together, while spiral turns would have us intermesh our corkscrew flight paths and increase the chance of collision. There are a lot of variables here -- a Monte Carlo simulation would be useful to test different scenarios I don't know all the answers here but think that turning -- and keeping a steady turn in one cylinder of air -- has something to say for it too. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kd5xb 1 #27 November 27, 2011 I think that, if I were under canopy and still in a cloud, I might make as much noise as I could, so others could hear me and deduce an area where I might be -- kind of like a fog horn on a ship. As for turns -- gee, that's a hard question, and everybody is going to have their own idea. I'd probably go straight ahead and end up calling the DZ on my cell phone to get somebody to come pick me up.I'm a jumper. Even though I don't always have money for jumps, and may not ever own a rig again, I'll always be a jumper. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
muff528 3 #28 November 27, 2011 Getting back to Dan's original conditions - plan is to break off and begin tracking with your team at 6500 and track until you are open at 4000 (I assume a pull around 4500 +/-). At some point during the tracking phase you are to accelerate to max track while separating from other team members. But you enter a cloud with your team at 6k. Do you follow the plan? My point is that even if everyone follows the plan the actual result, after tracking through 1500 feet of cloud, will be that no one is following that plan even if they think they are. Even moderating your tracking speed is dangerous. If one jumper decides to keep a conservative speed and is traveling at say 150mph, the guy behind may slow down to 180. That's 30 mph difference. Much slower speed differences are deadly, especially when you don't see a collision coming. Also, I doubt that most will be able to maintain a precise enough heading to avoid collision with team members for 1500 feet. Then there is the team behind yours. What are they doing? Following the plan? They may think they are, too. Next (if luck is with you) is the pull in zero visibility at 4500 to be at the planned "under canopy" altitude of 4000 ft, now thankfully below the cloud base. How many bodies are raining around you waiting for their AADs to fire? (OK that was a bit dramatic) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,381 #29 November 27, 2011 >If the people in a group, and separate groups from the same load, did get good >separation between where they pulled, then if everyone does steady turns they "stay >in place" and avoid each other. If they all open facing away from the center and keep flying that direction they also avoid each other. If they do not - if they open facing in random directions and fly straight - then there will be a chance that, perhaps once, they will come close enough to another jumper to be a hazard. If, on the other hand, they open facing in random directions and they fly in circles, they will have a chance every revolution to come close to another jumper. >If two guys in a group get say 90 degree turns or 180 degree turns on opening, they >could be shooting towards each other. Agreed. Now imagine that as soon as that happens they both start spiraling. They will shoot towards each other once per revolution. They are both much better off (assuming they avoid the initial collision) continuing in a straight line away from each other. Bryan Burke recently published a study of collisions that occurred at Eloy. Two of his conclusions were that most collisions occurred due to lack of visibility, and that the more you turn, the more you are at risk of collision. Seems to apply here as well. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pchapman 261 #30 November 27, 2011 Ok, bill, that stuff sounds reasonable. If the theoretical perfect cylinders of air don't work as well in practice, with too much wandering & changing of turn rates & diameters, then there's more chance of the spirals meshing, especially as time passes. Then one is better to take the higher short term risk of even random straight line flights, but which over time will tend to spread people. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,046 #31 November 28, 2011 Hi pops, QuoteWe differ. We do not differ. You say: 'They are less likely to collide if they don't move' When I say to go into deep brakes and stay there I ( the specific jumper ) am trying to do the same thing as ' . . . don't move . . . ' I also differ with billvon on his go straight ahead unless that is also with going straight ahead but in deep brakes. That is the very best way to create the smallest target as possible. IMO since no one knows what the other people will do, you should create the smallest target as possible. If you actually knew that they would ALL maintain their heading(s) then going into deep brakes would not be the best thing to do. JerryBaumchen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #32 November 28, 2011 QuoteHi pops, QuoteWe differ. We do not differ. You say: 'They are less likely to collide if they don't move' When I say to go into deep brakes and stay there I ( the specific jumper ) am trying to do the same thing as ' . . . don't move . . . ' I stand corrected....deep brakes, yes.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjumpenfool 2 #33 November 28, 2011 I made the mistake of flying into a cloud many years ago... big mistake! It scared the shit out of me. But, I learned something (the hard way). As soon as I entered the cloud, I was blind. I could not see shit! My natural instinct was to slow down and go carefully. So I went into deep brakes, flew straight ahead, prepared for a collision, went over EP's, etc. I also found that in deep brakes it was a bit quieter and I found myself listening for other jumpers. I'm not sure if I could have heard anyone had they been there, but I am sure I never want to be in a clould again. I've spent the last 30 years avoiding clouds. Now, one of my favorite things is to fly along the outside of them... Birdshit & Fools Productions "Son, only two things fall from the sky." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nigel99 143 #34 November 28, 2011 Quote Hi pops, Quote Under canopy: Slow, right-hand turns until you come out the bottom. My simple geometry says to go into deep brakes & stay on heading to create the smallest target available. Anyone else??? JerryBaumchen I think there is a slight increased risk of collision if people are circling. However I still believe that may be the best course of action. I guess most jumps through cloud thick enough to cause a problem, had a GPS spot. By circling you should reduce the chance of an off landing. You could of course jump with a GPS on your wrist like the one TI I met. He got fed up with off field landings on work jumps, so got himself the GPS. Problem solvedExperienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
manseman 0 #35 November 28, 2011 Quote I think there is a slight increased risk of collision if people are circling. However I still believe that may be the best course of action. I guess most jumps through cloud thick enough to cause a problem, had a GPS spot. By circling you should reduce the chance of an off landing. I guess it may depend on the DZ surroundings, but I'd rather have any number of off landings than a single canopy collision. I was taught to make a big, slow left turn while yelling at the top of my lungs until free of the cloud. Never really got an explanation of why turning would be better than just flying straight in deep brakes and I don't think there was one other than "we've always been teaching it that way and it hasn't really been questioned". Also, two canopies flying straight, worst case, the flight paths cross once. Two canopies turning, worst case, the flight paths cross four times per 360. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
danornan 64 #36 November 28, 2011 Slowing down is fine if you are all alone or on a 4-way, but the example is a large formation with waves of skydivers behind you, and maybe some of them are following the initial plan!Dano Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nigel99 143 #37 November 28, 2011 QuoteSlowing down is fine if you are all alone or on a 4-way, but the example is a large formation with waves of skydivers behind you, and maybe some of them are following the initial plan! It seems odd that a large formation would bust the FAR's. I know that I am excusing 'us' from doing it on 4 ways and the like. I was pretty scared on a 3 way that ended up in thick cloud, I can't imagine how much butt clenching would be involved on an 8way+.Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #38 November 28, 2011 Quotego into deep brakes & stay on heading to create the smallest target available. +1"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #39 November 28, 2011 QuoteQuotego into deep brakes & stay on heading to create the smallest target available. +1 Good enough but how many can maintain a heading in a cloud? Not many.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #40 November 28, 2011 Quote I was taught to make a big, slow left turn while yelling at the top of my lungs until free of the cloud. Never really got an explanation of why turning would be better than just flying straight in deep brakes and I don't think there was one other than "we've always been teaching it that way and it hasn't really been questioned". I never heard "left-hand" I've only heard "right-hand". The logic of the turns was two-fold: - to stay in you column of air rather than flying off into other randomly flying canopies and -to stay within range of your LZ.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #41 November 28, 2011 QuoteSlowing down is fine if you are all alone or on a 4-way, but the example is a large formation with waves of skydivers behind you, and maybe some of them are following the initial plan! Hence my original post being about small groups and leaving the bigway issues to the bigway gurus.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #42 November 28, 2011 QuoteGood enough but how many can maintain a heading in a cloud? Not many. Leave the toggles alone and most canopies fly close to straight, most people can bring both toggles close to the same distance down (ears, shoulders) and the canopy will fly pretty close to straight. When you turn you *increase* the speed of the canopy. Last thing you want if you collide is to be going faster."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,381 #43 November 28, 2011 >It seems odd that a large formation would bust the FAR's. It happens. One of the 100-way diamond jumps sideswiped a cloud; half the formation tracked into it. After that there was a near-mutiny and we stopped for the day. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,046 #44 November 29, 2011 Hi pops, Quote Good enough but how many can maintain a heading in a cloud? I can. I've been in a cloud where I could only see white. It was an accuracy jump & I just 'knew' when to turn to be on final when I came out of it. And on final I was. Quote I never heard "left-hand" I've only heard "right-hand". And IMO that is the problem with any turning. Who's on first. JerryBaumchen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bclark 0 #45 November 29, 2011 What to do if you enter a cloud: Plug your nose and hold your breath so you don't drown. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackC1 0 #46 November 29, 2011 Quote My simple geometry says to go into deep brakes & stay on heading to create the smallest target available. +1 The only downside I can see to this is you float more which means you're in cloud for longer. But I think decreasing the chance of meeting someone and going a lot slower if you do more than make up for it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
luis 0 #47 November 29, 2011 Quote You could of course jump with a GPS on your wrist May not help, unless you complement it with a radar I had a canopy collision in the cloud once. Scary stuff! We planned a 5 canopy formation and cloud layer looked suspicious, so it was agreed that if we have to enter it, everybody breaks off and keeps the same heading. Turned out very difficult to keep the heading when you are absolutely blind. The fact that I had a GPS and was on course didn't help much - was hit by my wingman, wrapped in his canopy and made an interesting video So, if you have to fly in the cloud...well, don't! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hellis 0 #48 November 29, 2011 Quote You could of course jump with a GPS on your wrist like the one TI I met. He got fed up with off field landings on work jumps, so got himself the GPS. Problem solved Minihomer GPS on a altimeter pillow with (one of) my knife(s) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
muff528 3 #49 November 29, 2011 Quote Quote You could of course jump with a GPS on your wrist like the one TI I met. He got fed up with off field landings on work jumps, so got himself the GPS. Problem solved Minihomer GPS on a altimeter pillow with (one of) my knife(s) Cool instrument! (I sure hope everyone else on my tracking team is looking at theirs while we're tracking through this cloud!) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjumpenfool 2 #50 November 29, 2011 Quote Cool instrument! (I sure hope everyone else on my tracking team is looking at theirs while we're tracking through this cloud!) Or worse... "I've got this cool instrument! Wanna go into a cloud with me?" Birdshit & Fools Productions "Son, only two things fall from the sky." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
