What to do if you enter a cloud

[skyrider 0]

As a cameraman, I wipe offf my lens!

[GobbleGobble 0]

Under canopy in a cloud: from climb up to alt you should know where the top and the bottom are. Maintain right flat turn until you pop out the bottom. The reason for doing this would be the same as in free fall: maintain position within your own "column" of air. Going into deep brakes and praying is pretty stupid. Thats like saying slow down your track so that you are barely moving forward through a cloud.

[billvon 2,379]

>Maintain right flat turn until you pop out the bottom.

The best bet is to do what you planned to do originally. Turn 180 from the center, track straight away from the dive, open facing away from the center, and fly away from the center. It sure would be silly to do all that, then start spiraling and run into the guy to your right who also decided to spiral.

[BobMoore 0]

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Maintain right flat turn until you pop out the bottom. The reason for doing this would be the same as in free fall: maintain position within your own "column" of air.

How do you know that your own column of air does not intersect with your neighbors' own column of air? If you both are doing right flat turns you could run into each other, which is why several people in this thread say that's not a good idea. After your canopy opens in a cloud fly straight (don't pull on the toggles) and hope you are still heading away from the center of the formation, because no matter what others might say, if you can't see you can't see and you won't know when to turn onto final for landing until you can see the ground.

"For you see, an airplane is an airplane. A landing area is a landing area. But a dropzone... a dropzone is the people."

[popsjumper 2]

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>Maintain right flat turn until you pop out the bottom.

The best bet is to do what you planned to do originally. Turn 180 from the center, track straight away from the dive, open facing away from the center, and fly away from the center. It sure would be silly to do all that, then start spiraling and run into the guy to your right who also decided to spiral.

I think it's hilarious that anyone could possibly assume that others could maintain a heading in a cloud. Not to mention assuming on-heading openings.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

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How do you know that your own column of air does not intersect with your neighbors' own column of air?

Because we had adequate separation on opening. Simple as that.

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If you both are doing right flat turns you could run into each other,

As opposed to flying blindly through it and NOT running into each other? Not in a logical world.

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...which is why several people in this thread say that's not a good idea.

Yep. "Several people" doesn't make it right.

After your canopy opens in a cloud fly straight (don't pull on the toggles) and hope you are still heading away from the center of the formation,
And "several people" fail to see that as a major problem.

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because no matter what others might say, if you can't see you can't see and you won't know when to turn onto final for landing until you can see the ground.

And flying "straight ahead" most likely is taking you farther and farther away from the LZ. Good luck with that.

Note: Plan it and stick to it...whatever the organizer says, you have to option to jump with another group or another organizer if you don't like it.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Hellis 0]

I agree with you completly.

And i would like to add:
Pull above or below the cloud, you should know where they start and end.
If you can't pull above or below, it would be stupid to jump in the first place.
But if you still decide to jump I think the method of turning is better than just drifting around in the cloud.

[danornan 64]

ANYTHING that deviates from the plan will be unexpected. You have to do the best that you can in the circumstances and if you choose to be a lone ranger with your own plan, how are you going to transmit that to the other 50+ in your formation?

My purpose in starting this thread was to generate conversation about something that doesn't happen often, but does occur.

I wish it were discussed more often on those cloudy days when we do jump. Just in case.......

Be careful when you make up a plan that is not what everyone else discussed.

Dano

[nigel99 143]

I have been putting significant thought into this. While I like the idea of slow (deep brake) turns, it bothered me that it increases the chance of a collision with someone who is nearby and doing the same.

However if you fly straight, then the opportunities for a potential collision widen to include the entire load. With suitable exit separation between groups and adopting turns you should only be at risk from your own group. Do you really want to end up flying up or down jump run straight into other groups?

Like most things it is going to be driven by circumstance. You are probably better off flying straight if you have jumped from a 182, into a DZ with lots of outs. If you have exited an Otter or have a DZ with limited outs then slow turns are probably best.

As usual having a plan, communicating it and then sticking to it helps.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[billvon 2,379]

>I think it's hilarious that anyone could possibly assume that others could maintain a
>heading in a cloud.

Canopies generally maintain headings if you just let them fly. It's like the old system to ensure that a plane recovers from a stall or a spin - a boxing glove comes out of the panel and knocks the pilot out.

Let the canopy fly and it will maintain heading all by itself.

>Not to mention assuming on-heading openings.

Most canopies generally give you on-heading openings. Some do not, of course - which is why jumping in clouds is a generally bad idea.

[pchapman 261]

While there is some discussion of straight vs turning when dealing with others within one's own jump group, the situation changes a little when the issue is separation between jump groups:

If people were doing solos into cloud, or maybe you are one in a string of tandems, then the spacing between groups should be sufficient that a slow turn will avoid any intersection between flight paths. Even after a couple thousand feet of turning, people should stay separated instead of having the small chance of intersecting courses if flying straight.

While this adds safety for the turning option, and biases the odds towards that choice, I don't know if other people may still prefer the straight line idea.

Turning is also better for making it back to the DZ if one can't tell by the direction at all (eg, bright spot of sun through the clouds, memorizing direction before entering clouds, etc). Turning might not be the best option if there are a lot of other jumpers in the clouds too (as discussed in this thread). But if using it in a situation where the collision risk isn't high, at least you'll come out of the clouds close to where you opened (although low), rather than having randomly flown any direction, likely away from the DZ.

Another factor is what the other guy is going to do: Is the guy who was next out of the plane a turner or a straight flyer? If we're both turners maybe we're fine, but if he's a straight line guy and I were a turner, maybe he'll happen to head through my little circle of airspace, so I'd better to fly straight and take my chances that we randomly diverge. Who knows!

Even with something as simple as a string of tandems in clouds, is everyone circling (fairly safe), or did everyone memorize their direction and are making a straight line roughly for the DZ in the cloud (somewhat safe), or is it a mix (potentially less safe)?

Good that this gets some discussion here because it isn't in the manuals -- after all it is illegal and therefore none of us has ever been near a cloud. Yeah right.

So I wonder what they say about cloud jumps in Australia etc where it is legal in controlled circumstances? Anyone?

[popsjumper 2]

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Canopies generally maintain headings if you just let them fly.

IF...
-line trim is even
-riser loading is equal left to right
-and other

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Most canopies generally give you on-heading openings.

You have more faith than I that both the canopy AND the jumper are doing the things that make on-heading openings possible. You have more faith than I that the jumper is even facing away from the center of the formation at opening.

So, we have to consider those times that the canopy does NOT open on heading. Can you tell which way to turn to get back on your radial away from the center of the formation? Can you tell for sure that you are not flying up jump run?

As an airplane pilot, can you maintain a heading in a cloud? Not to mention altitude and such. Nor "just let it fly".
No...you depend on your instruments.


Your method may or may not work for highly experienced jumper. It will not work safely for the general jumping population.

Think of the youngsters....and the less-aware.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

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So I wonder what they say about cloud jumps in Australia etc where it is legal in controlled circumstances? Anyone?

Ooooooo...good question.
That's why they pay you the big bucks.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

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Another factor is what the other guy is going to do: Is the guy who was next out of the plane a turner or a straight flyer?

...which is one indicator of many of the today's problems in the skydiving world....
People being taught different things by different people.

Even where there are standards, many think they know better and go off on tangents teaching people to do things differently and we get conflict. Sometimes that conflict is deadly.

Some of the wildest, off-the-cuff stuff comes from the most "experienced" jumpers.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[mik 2]

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While there is some discussion of straight vs turning when dealing with others within one's own jump group, the situation changes a little when the issue is separation between jump groups:

If people were doing solos into cloud, or maybe you are one in a string of tandems, then the spacing between groups should be sufficient that a slow turn will avoid any intersection between flight paths. Even after a couple thousand feet of turning, people should stay separated instead of having the small chance of intersecting courses if flying straight.

While this adds safety for the turning option, and biases the odds towards that choice, I don't know if other people may still prefer the straight line idea.

Turning is also better for making it back to the DZ if one can't tell by the direction at all (eg, bright spot of sun through the clouds, memorizing direction before entering clouds, etc). Turning might not be the best option if there are a lot of other jumpers in the clouds too (as discussed in this thread). But if using it in a situation where the collision risk isn't high, at least you'll come out of the clouds close to where you opened (although low), rather than having randomly flown any direction, likely away from the DZ.

Another factor is what the other guy is going to do: Is the guy who was next out of the plane a turner or a straight flyer? If we're both turners maybe we're fine, but if he's a straight line guy and I were a turner, maybe he'll happen to head through my little circle of airspace, so I'd better to fly straight and take my chances that we randomly diverge. Who knows!

Even with something as simple as a string of tandems in clouds, is everyone circling (fairly safe), or did everyone memorize their direction and are making a straight line roughly for the DZ in the cloud (somewhat safe), or is it a mix (potentially less safe)?

Good that this gets some discussion here because it isn't in the manuals -- after all it is illegal and therefore none of us has ever been near a cloud. Yeah right.

So I wonder what they say about cloud jumps in Australia etc where it is legal in controlled circumstances? Anyone?

I have done a good few jumps through clouds in Russia (probably in the 100s) and although we try to avoid having to open in clouds (ie if the cloud base is around too low the jumps tend not to go ahead), it happens at times.

The conventional wisdom here seems to be the slow right hand turns, the reasons generally given being to avoid finding yourself low over the forest with few landing options and to reduce the risk of collisions.. the context is each plane holds about 20 jumpers with a typical load comprising a couple of 4 ways plus camera, a few freefly groups, a couple of tandems plus some solos. The guidance comes from the more experienced jumpers here (many of whom have 15k+ jumps in all Russian weather conditions). Of course, that does not necessarily mean is it the best way, but the only canopy collisions I am aware of at the DZ were not caused by opening in the clouds.

***********************************************
I'm NOT totally useless... I can be used as a bad example

[brettski74 0]

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So I wonder what they say about cloud jumps in Australia etc where it is legal in controlled circumstances? Anyone?

It's been a few years since I had to sign the cloud-jumping rules at an Oz dropzone, but last time I did, they were:

1. In freefall, minimize horizontal movement (ie. no tracking, backsliding, sidesliding or forward movement)

2. Under canopy, execute a slow, right-hand spiral (ie. flat turns, not spiralling down like a mad man)

3. Do not deploy within a cloud unless you are at the hard deck (ie. 2500')

In general, this is pretty much what popsjumper was saying and I tend to agree with the logic.

In a similar discussion a few years back, billvon also made the point that if you entered the cloud in freefall as part of a group, sticking religiously to rule #1 above may not be so great, since the people you're most likely to collide with during break-off, deployment or shortly thereafter are the people from your group, so if you were to hit break-off altitude inside a cloud, then your should probably still turn and track, but be mindful of not going too far (lest you hit the next group) or too hard (lest your heading control become too wild and unpredictable without the visual cues).

I don't agree with the logic of going straight under canopy. Most of us aren't flying accuracy canopies, so we can't go straight down even at full brakes. You're always going to be going forward. Using the above rules, you should rarely be opening in clouds, and if you do have to open inside a cloud, then maybe you need to reconsider your criteria for deciding when to jump and when not to jump. That being the case, for the majority of cases, you should be open in clear air. If this is above the cloud, then you should have also had plenty of time to ensure adequate separation prior to entering the clouds and if you start with adequate separation, executing a slow, right hand spiral will keep you in the same column (eg 50m wide) of air. If you're so close that executing such a spiral has a high chance of collision, then you screwed up before you entered the cloud.

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Good that this gets some discussion here because it isn't in the manuals -- after all it is illegal and therefore none of us has ever been near a cloud. Yeah right.

Actually, I feel this is part of the problem. I'm not saying that cloud jumping should be legal or illegal, but the fact that nobody wants to come up with formal guidelines because it is illegal means that if someone ends up in such a situation, they're now left to come up with a plan on the fly, which is far from optimal. We're not children. I'm pretty sure that most of us can understand the concept of "Don't jump in clouds, however, in the interests of safety, if you should find yourself in a cloud, here's what your plan should be..."

As for the arguments against changing the plan, if everybody jumping at a particular dropzone is required to know the cloud jumping rules and is expected to follow them, then they are now part of everybody's plan.

As for the bigway question, I think that most organizers who can get 100+ people to show up to a 100+ way event are responsible enough will most of the time abort the jump if they're not sure that we have enough clear sky for everyone. That said, shit does happen and I've been in a cloud at some point or other on one or two large formation dives. On such a dive though, you don't really have the option of changing the plan. There's so many of you up there trying to use the same finite amount of space concurrently, there's really no other place for you to go other than where the break-off plan told you to go. Go anywhere else an you have a much greater risk of running into someone come deployment, so you do your best to get to where you were supposed to be for deployment and you deploy at the designated altitude.

[billvon 2,379]

>but the fact that nobody wants to come up with formal guidelines because it is illegal
>means that if someone ends up in such a situation, they're now left to come up with a
>plan on the fly, which is far from optimal.

Well, some people in non-cloud-legal countries do indeed plan for it. I give my AFF graduates a quick overview of "what happens when you punch a cloud" and I've been on several bigways where there was a plan (mainly for breakoff) in case of clouds.

But I agree, overall it's not discussed very often, and I can think of a few cases where it would have helped.

[brettski74 0]

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Well, some people in non-cloud-legal countries do indeed plan for it. I give my AFF graduates a quick overview of "what happens when you punch a cloud" and I've been on several bigways where there was a plan (mainly for breakoff) in case of clouds.

It's not that it's never discussed. I include it when I'm doing emergency procedures reviews with novices for their licences, but it's not consistently covered and their are a lot of differing and in some cases conflicting opinions on how to deal with the situation in North America. When I was jumping in Oz a few years ago, there seemed to be a much more consistent attitude towards how to deal with clouds and in general, I think that makes for a much safer situation than any variation on the actual rules applied (eg. slow spirals vs flying straight) can achieve.

[danornan 64]

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>
"I've been on several bigways where there was a plan (mainly for breakoff) in case of clouds.

But I agree, overall it's not discussed very often, and I can think of a few cases where it would have helped.

I've been on big-ways since 1999 (started on the 100-way speed star event at Z-Hills) and have NEVER heard anyone even discuss a plan if you enter a cloud. Mayb I just missed it, but after at least 50+ big-ways I don't recall it ever being mentioned.

Dano

[-ftp- 0]

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I had a canopy collision in the cloud once. Scary stuff!
- was hit by my wingman, wrapped in his canopy and made an interesting video

care to share?

[riggerrob 558]

Open at your planned altitude.

[riggerrob 558]

"

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... I never heard "left-hand" I've only heard "right-hand".
The logic of the turns was two-fold:
- to stay in you column of air rather than flying off into other randomly flying canopies and
-to stay within range of your LZ.

.........................................................................

The nautical - and aviation - tradition is to turn right to avoid collision.
For example: if you meet another canopy head-on. the simplest way to avoid collision is for both canopies to turn right 30 degrees.

[DaVinciflies 0]

Disconnect RSL.
Cutaway.
Open reserve when you can see the ground.

Easy!

[billvon 2,379]

>I've been on big-ways since 1999 (started on the 100-way speed star event at Z-Hills)
>and have NEVER heard anyone even discuss a plan if you enter a cloud.

Three I can think of were the 100-way diamond, the 357 way and the California state record - all due to some weather being in the vicinity at some point during the attempts.

[danornan 64]

What were you told to do if entering a cloud?

Dano