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danornan 79
So....... We get back to, do you follow the plan or do you do something different? There was a break-off plan before the jump and the only difference was, entering a cloud, that was necessary because it was in your radial away from the formation.
Entering a cloud should not be done, but in a large formation, you might not have a choice. The question still remains, What do you do?
Entering a cloud should not be done, but in a large formation, you might not have a choice. The question still remains, What do you do?
Dano
jsaxton 0
Breakoff and tracking: Ignore the cloud, follow the plan, deploy at the assigned altitude.
Under Canopy: fly away from the formation until you can see.
Under Canopy: fly away from the formation until you can see.
QuoteSo....... We get back to, do you follow the plan or do you do something different? There was a break-off plan before the jump and the only difference was, entering a cloud, that was necessary because it was in your radial away from the formation.
Entering a cloud should not be done, but in a large formation, you might not have a choice. The question still remains, What do you do?
muff528 3
QuoteBreakoff and tracking: Ignore the cloud, follow the plan, deploy at the assigned altitude.
Under Canopy: fly away from the formation until you can see.QuoteSo....... We get back to, do you follow the plan or do you do something different? There was a break-off plan before the jump and the only difference was, entering a cloud, that was necessary because it was in your radial away from the formation.
Entering a cloud should not be done, but in a large formation, you might not have a choice. The question still remains, What do you do?
I seriously doubt that any of the folks who find themselves blindly tracking through 2500' of clouds are even close to maintaining their assigned radial or relative speed with the others ...I don't care how good they think they are. No one in the clouds will have to worry about where I am. I'm bugging out, straight down. I know where the cloud bases are because I always know where they are since that is part of my ritual during the climb and I always use cloud bases as "waypoints" during freefall. After I land and reprimand myself for being a lemming I will accept being booted from the dive. If I'm not kicked off I will insist on being replaced. And I will make a note for future reference to never jump with that idiot organizer again. I don't care how great this sport is, it is not worth dying for. (I'm pretty sure that "dying while doing something he loved" is not all that it's cracked up to be.)
jsaxton 0
So you have a better idea? Let's hear it.
QuoteQuoteBreakoff and tracking: Ignore the cloud, follow the plan, deploy at the assigned altitude.
Under Canopy: fly away from the formation until you can see.QuoteSo....... We get back to, do you follow the plan or do you do something different? There was a break-off plan before the jump and the only difference was, entering a cloud, that was necessary because it was in your radial away from the formation.
Entering a cloud should not be done, but in a large formation, you might not have a choice. The question still remains, What do you do?
I seriously doubt that any of the folks who find themselves blindly tracking through 2500' of clouds are even close to maintaining their assigned radial or relative speed with the others ...I don't care how good they think they are. No one in the clouds will have to worry about where I am. I'm bugging out, straight down. I know where the cloud bases are because I always know where they are since that is part of my ritual during the climb and I always use cloud bases as "waypoints" during freefall. After I land and reprimand myself for being a lemming I will accept being booted from the dive. If I'm not kicked off I will insist on being replaced. And I will make a note for future reference to never jump with that idiot organizer again. I don't care how great this sport is, it is not worth dying for. (I'm pretty sure that "dying while doing something he loved" is not all that it's cracked up to be.)
JerryBaumchen 1,340
Hi pops,
No 'ifs' about it; you create a smaller target by staying in place ( or as close to in place as possible ) under all conditions.
As I said, simple geometry.
Remember, you are not dealing with a snapshot in time; you are dealing with some timeframe.
JerryBaumchen
QuoteGood enough...IF:
No 'ifs' about it; you create a smaller target by staying in place ( or as close to in place as possible ) under all conditions.
As I said, simple geometry.
Remember, you are not dealing with a snapshot in time; you are dealing with some timeframe.
JerryBaumchen
muff528 3
QuoteSo you have a better idea? Let's hear it.
QuoteQuoteBreakoff and tracking: Ignore the cloud, follow the plan, deploy at the assigned altitude.
Under Canopy: fly away from the formation until you can see.QuoteSo....... We get back to, do you follow the plan or do you do something different? There was a break-off plan before the jump and the only difference was, entering a cloud, that was necessary because it was in your radial away from the formation.
Entering a cloud should not be done, but in a large formation, you might not have a choice. The question still remains, What do you do?
I seriously doubt that any of the folks who find themselves blindly tracking through 2500' of clouds are even close to maintaining their assigned radial or relative speed with the others ...I don't care how good they think they are. No one in the clouds will have to worry about where I am. I'm bugging out, straight down. I know where the cloud bases are because I always know where they are since that is part of my ritual during the climb and I always use cloud bases as "waypoints" during freefall. After I land and reprimand myself for being a lemming I will accept being booted from the dive. If I'm not kicked off I will insist on being replaced. And I will make a note for future reference to never jump with that idiot organizer again. I don't care how great this sport is, it is not worth dying for. (I'm pretty sure that "dying while doing something he loved" is not all that it's cracked up to be.)
That's the point. An entire quadrant of dozens of jumpers tracking blindly through a cloud for a half mile is bad. Me leaving and diving straight down is bad. There is no "better" idea other than an organizer team that uses common sense and plans the entire dive safely. If that means aborting the attempt because of the possibility of clouds at critical points then so be it. Potentially an expensive decision but that's one of the difficulties in organizing these types of events.
jsaxton 0
Now that I agree with. I've ridden the plane down a few times and once at the warm up jumps for the NV State record I refused to exit (even though everyone else did).
However I have a plan for finding my chest strap being undone in freefall, and I have a plan for break off through clouds. I've tracked through clouds a couple of times on these things and my plan (I hope) maximizes my predictability and chances for survival.
The plan is the plan, the plan is never executed perfectly but it's what everyone is expecting, Introducing a wild card response during a bad situation can only make things more chaotic.
However I have a plan for finding my chest strap being undone in freefall, and I have a plan for break off through clouds. I've tracked through clouds a couple of times on these things and my plan (I hope) maximizes my predictability and chances for survival.
The plan is the plan, the plan is never executed perfectly but it's what everyone is expecting, Introducing a wild card response during a bad situation can only make things more chaotic.
QuoteQuoteSo you have a better idea? Let's hear it.
QuoteQuoteBreakoff and tracking: Ignore the cloud, follow the plan, deploy at the assigned altitude.
Under Canopy: fly away from the formation until you can see.QuoteSo....... We get back to, do you follow the plan or do you do something different? There was a break-off plan before the jump and the only difference was, entering a cloud, that was necessary because it was in your radial away from the formation.
Entering a cloud should not be done, but in a large formation, you might not have a choice. The question still remains, What do you do?
I seriously doubt that any of the folks who find themselves blindly tracking through 2500' of clouds are even close to maintaining their assigned radial or relative speed with the others ...I don't care how good they think they are. No one in the clouds will have to worry about where I am. I'm bugging out, straight down. I know where the cloud bases are because I always know where they are since that is part of my ritual during the climb and I always use cloud bases as "waypoints" during freefall. After I land and reprimand myself for being a lemming I will accept being booted from the dive. If I'm not kicked off I will insist on being replaced. And I will make a note for future reference to never jump with that idiot organizer again. I don't care how great this sport is, it is not worth dying for. (I'm pretty sure that "dying while doing something he loved" is not all that it's cracked up to be.)
That's the point. An entire quadrant of dozens of jumpers tracking blindly through a cloud for a half mile is bad. Me leaving and diving straight down is bad. There is no "better" idea other than an organizer team that uses common sense and plans the entire dive safely. If that means aborting the attempt because of the possibility of clouds at critical points then so be it. Potentially an expensive decision but that's one of the difficulties in organizing these types of events.
danornan 79
Jeff, I agree with your plan, as it's mine too. The only problem with it is that many others, including those who have responded is that it isn't their plan.
THAT is the problem. Lots of plans and not following the initial plan, in my opinion.
NOW, where do we go...... Maybe have something in the training manual? Sort of like an unexpected water landing. It wasn't planned, but it happened.
My fear in a cloud is lots of plans and a lot of unexpected things happening.
THAT is the problem. Lots of plans and not following the initial plan, in my opinion.
NOW, where do we go...... Maybe have something in the training manual? Sort of like an unexpected water landing. It wasn't planned, but it happened.
My fear in a cloud is lots of plans and a lot of unexpected things happening.
Dano
jsaxton 0
Hopefully by the time they make it to the "Bigs" they'll have had enough exposure to the "above all else, be consistent" methodology.
erdnarob 1
If you enter a cloud what should be the reaction ? : Well, it depends on what you are doing and at what altitude is the cloud.
1) in FS or VSF with cloud way higher than the opening altitude : keep your moves to a minimum, try to locate any other jumpers not connected to the formation, wait to exit the cloud to resume action
2) in FS or VSF with cloud at the opening altitude (the most dangerous) : start to track slowly and keep an eye on other jumpers nearby, when out of the cloud resume your normal tracking. A very embarrasssing situation, not easy to give a general technique.
3) Doing style or alone : continue your work but keep a eye on your altimeter, some clouds can be very thick.
4) during your parachute descent with clouds or fog near the ground (can happen suddenly in the morning when the sun starts to heat the wet ground) : don't do any drastic move with your canopy, try to use your altimeter to evaluate when you are about to be near the ground, keep an eye around you to avoid other canopies if any. Fly your parachute far away from the landing area to avoid crowded traffic, put you upwind for landing and when you see the ground do a normal flare.
Good luck
1) in FS or VSF with cloud way higher than the opening altitude : keep your moves to a minimum, try to locate any other jumpers not connected to the formation, wait to exit the cloud to resume action
2) in FS or VSF with cloud at the opening altitude (the most dangerous) : start to track slowly and keep an eye on other jumpers nearby, when out of the cloud resume your normal tracking. A very embarrasssing situation, not easy to give a general technique.
3) Doing style or alone : continue your work but keep a eye on your altimeter, some clouds can be very thick.
4) during your parachute descent with clouds or fog near the ground (can happen suddenly in the morning when the sun starts to heat the wet ground) : don't do any drastic move with your canopy, try to use your altimeter to evaluate when you are about to be near the ground, keep an eye around you to avoid other canopies if any. Fly your parachute far away from the landing area to avoid crowded traffic, put you upwind for landing and when you see the ground do a normal flare.
Good luck
Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.
QuoteHi pops,
QuoteGood enough...IF:
No 'ifs' about it; you create a smaller target by staying in place ( or as close to in place as possible ) under all conditions.
As I said, simple geometry.
Remember, you are not dealing with a snapshot in time; you are dealing with some timeframe.
JerryBaumchen
OK, Jerry. We differ.
I'm thinking of an analogy.
Put cars in an open parking lot and blindfold the drivers. They are less likely to collide if they don't move....regardless of how long they stay there.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
QuoteMy fear in a cloud is lots of plans and a lot of unexpected things happening.
Bingo. That's why the planning happens on the ground....before the jump.
Sadly, in the big scheme of things, we can't predict what others will do...plan or no plan.
Sadly, today I watched and listened as jumpers prepared to go and nobody discussed clouds even though there were many, many big puffies in the sky.
When I mentioned it to them, the response from every single group was, "Nah...we'll be OK."
![[:/]](/uploads/emoticons/dry.png "[:/]"){kind=small}
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
billvon 2,917
.thumb.jpg.4bb795e2eaf21b8b300039a5e1ec7f92.jpg)
Follow the plan as closely as possible, so your actions are predictable. To wit:
If it happens within sight of others, continue the skydive. Break off at normal altitude. Do a _very_ good job of turning 180 and tracking for the appropriate amount of time. Open and fly straight ahead away from the group (as best you can tell what "away" is.)
If you're on approach on a bigger dive continue the approach going as slowly as possible. The safety goal here is to get everyone in approximately the same patch of sky so there can be some semblance of a breakoff. In _general_ (90% of the time) you will see people in time to stop.
Under canopy fly straight ahead for as long as possible. The more you turn the more likely you are to hit someone. At about 1000 feet you have to start setting up a landing, and if you still can't see at that point you're pretty much screwed.
If it happens within sight of others, continue the skydive. Break off at normal altitude. Do a _very_ good job of turning 180 and tracking for the appropriate amount of time. Open and fly straight ahead away from the group (as best you can tell what "away" is.)
If you're on approach on a bigger dive continue the approach going as slowly as possible. The safety goal here is to get everyone in approximately the same patch of sky so there can be some semblance of a breakoff. In _general_ (90% of the time) you will see people in time to stop.
Under canopy fly straight ahead for as long as possible. The more you turn the more likely you are to hit someone. At about 1000 feet you have to start setting up a landing, and if you still can't see at that point you're pretty much screwed.
Good enough...IF:
1. Everyone is flying a divergent radial
2. Everyone has the ability to determine heading maintenance in a cloud.
I have less confidence in others than to assume those things. Hell, I have little confidence in myself to maintain a heading in a cloud!
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
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