Sony HC-9

[chrisgray 0]

I just saw the HDR-HC9 at a Sony dealer show and really liked it. Should be a great choice since it does have a LANC port. The only other HD camera that Sony builds with a LANC port is the HDR-FX1 which is a mid-sized pro-sumer grade camera at $3600.

As for dealers you must be very careful who you trust. Sony is getting really strict with authorized sales so the only sure fire way to tell is call 1-877-865-SONY (7669).

I would buy from B&H Photo. They have great service, good prices, and they are an authorized dealer.

Good luck.

WSI-6 / PFI-55
The Brothers Gray Wingsuit Academy
http://www.myspace.com/cgwingsuitpilot
http://www.myspace.com/thebrothersgray

[DSE 3]

Quote

I just saw the HDR-HC9 at a Sony dealer show and really liked it. Should be a great choice since it does have a LANC port. The only other HD camera that Sony builds with a LANC port is the HDR-FX1 which is a mid-sized pro-sumer grade camera at $3600.
.

Not quite....
HC1, 3, 5, 7, 9 all have LANC, Z7U has LANC, V1, FX7, FX1, Z1 all have LANC. In other words *every* HDV camcorder manufactured by Sony offers LANC, and nearly all the DV camcorders do as well.
Get used to LANC being dead, as tape is dead (search this forum for an understanding of why/when/timeline). LANC is only licensable to tape-based formats. It's a format designed for mechanical controllers, and is absent many options that other protocols allow for. In other words, the absence of LANC is by far not the end of the world, and superior control is available for non-LANC cameras. But for skydivers, those controls are too large, bulky, and trouble-prone. Therefore, as mentioned previously, you'll soon see a controller made for skydivers that does a whole lot more than start/stop/indicate.

[chrisgray 0]

Agreed. LANC is only found on HDV format models which for 2008 include the two models I mentioned. All those models you mentioned with LANC port are older models.

If HDV/DV format dies then we will likely not see LANC anymore, as you mentioned. Although, I do suspect that the Pro-sumer and Professional models will continue to have them since videographers still ask for it.

Another downside I saw with the 2008 lineup is that the HDV models only record in 1080i x 1440 where as most the other formats are capable of 1080i x 1920 (Full HD).

WSI-6 / PFI-55
The Brothers Gray Wingsuit Academy
http://www.myspace.com/cgwingsuitpilot
http://www.myspace.com/thebrothersgray

[PharmerPhil 0]

Actually, the FX1 isn't sticktly speaking a 2008 model, although it is still current. But so are most of the models DSE mentioned. My money this year is on the HC5.

Question for DSE, what protocol are pros apt to use for zoom/focus/record controllers on future, non-tape models? For example, what is used on the PMW-EX1 for a tripod handle controller?

[DSE 3]

Quote

Agreed. LANC is only found on HDV format models which for 2008 include the two models I mentioned. All those models you mentioned with LANC port are older models.

If HDV/DV format dies then we will likely not see LANC anymore, as you mentioned. Although, I do suspect that the Pro-sumer and Professional models will continue to have them since videographers still ask for it.

Another downside I saw with the 2008 lineup is that the HDV models only record in 1080i x 1440 where as most the other formats are capable of 1080i x 1920 (Full HD).

HDV is a passing format, but you perhaps already knew that. Sony is done with it, Canon is done with it, JVC is done with it. Nothing new will be forthcoming in the next 18 months nor beyond, other than one minor change in an already existing camcorder, and it will not be impacted other than a part # change.
The HC 5/7 are both very much current model camcorders for Sony.

ALL HDV records at 1440 x 1920. Few of the other formats record 1920 x 1080. In fact, virtually NO other format records 1920 x 1080 in small size camcorders other than AVCHD. AVCHD has 1920 x1080 in the spec, but only two camcorders out of nearly 30 models from various manufacturers record 1920 x 1080, because the payload simply isn't worth it in image quality at this time.
If you feel you can see the difference between 1920 x 1080 at 1.0 PAR and 1440 x 1080 at 1.333 PAR, you've got a good imagination, unless you've got a 100" display or larger and you're viewing at 180" back.
The "prosumer" and "professional" grade cameras will not offer LANC, because LANC is a tape based-only protocol. Tape is dead. Get used to it. The new Sony EX1, a "pro-sumer" camcorder, has no LANC. No file-based camcorder offers, nor will offer LANC, ever. And all future camcorders are/will be file-based. The Z7U is Sony's transitional camera into 25Mbps MPEG2 formatted disc systems, recording HDV to tape and CF card at the same time. The DSR 270 offers an accessory back that does the same thing. Of course, XDCAM HD is file-based too, but I'd shudder to think of someone using XDCAM HD 35 or 50 on a jump (it has been done). Scott Campos became the first person in the world to fly an MPEG4 file-based camcorder earlier this year, with Brian Drake and Ben Butler as his subjects, but the EX format is too large to be commonly used for any sort of skydiving photography. It does not offer LANC, as mentioned above. Lens and power control are achieved through different means.

In short, getting hung up on LANC is short-sighted and foolish, IMO. If you have plans to purchase a camcorder in the near future, and expect to use it for more than one season, worrying about LANC as a control mechanism only serves to severely limit your options, whereas understanding that control via other protocols (which happen to be more powerful) offer more options in terms of camcorder choice.

[chrisgray 0]

What is the new control protocol that you refer to? What is it called? Where can more data be referenced about it? The only other I/O on the camcorders that I would think could support 2 way communications is the HDMI port. Is this correct?

I based my assessment and info in my previous post directly from dealer literature (not available to the public yet) that was given to me at a Sony Dealer show in Las Vegas 1 week ago. Yes, very little is mentioned about LANC in the literature. I certainly do agree that LANC is going away. I may seem hung up on it but I had no idea that there was any other option. Sony is certainly not sharing info on any other external control protocol at this time. That makes me wonder if this new protocol is a 3rd party product.

Sorry if I have hit a sensitive spot with these posts.

WSI-6 / PFI-55
The Brothers Gray Wingsuit Academy
http://www.myspace.com/cgwingsuitpilot
http://www.myspace.com/thebrothersgray

[pilotdave 0]

It's been discussed in another thread quite a bit. Sony already sells underwater housings that use the A/V port instead of lanc for controlling cameras. People have experimented and made DIY adapters that allow existing lanc devices to control the camera through the A/V port too.

Dave

[chrisgray 0]

Thats very cool. I was unaware of the A/V port being 2 way com. I don't frequent the photo/video threads too much so I hadn't read the other thread.

Thanks for the info Dave and DSE.

WSI-6 / PFI-55
The Brothers Gray Wingsuit Academy
http://www.myspace.com/cgwingsuitpilot
http://www.myspace.com/thebrothersgray

[DSE 3]

Quote

What is the new control protocol that you refer to? What is it called? Where can more data be referenced about it? The only other I/O on the camcorders that I would think could support 2 way communications is the HDMI port. Is this correct?

I based my assessment and info in my previous post directly from dealer literature (not available to the public yet) that was given to me at a Sony Dealer show in Las Vegas 1 week ago. Yes, very little is mentioned about LANC in the literature. I certainly do agree that LANC is going away. I may seem hung up on it but I had no idea that there was any other option. Sony is certainly not sharing info on any other external control protocol at this time. That makes me wonder if this new protocol is a 3rd party product.

Sorry if I have hit a sensitive spot with these posts.

What "dealer show" was in Las Vegas a couple of weeks ago? CES was the first week in January at the LVCC, I'm unaware of anything outside of small rep gatherings? There is no dealer lit that isn't available to the public re; Sony that I'm aware of, I guess there might be. All of the cameras that will be seen prior to July are announced and very public, including the SR10/12, HC9 which is shipping now, Z7 which is just starting to ship, and the DSR 270 which is due in a month. My company is the training partner for Sony camcorders, FWIW, in addition to Canon and some JVC products.

It's not a surprise that no specific mention of LANC is in the print literature, there is nothing to mention about LANC, as LANC is tape-based only protocol, and tape is developmentally dead. There is nothing more to say about LANC. Most folks don't know what LANC means, let alone what it is capable of and what it's limitations are. There's not much in any literature over the years about LANC, other than a "yes/no" box in a comparison chart.

The 'new' protocol isn't "new." Products that utilize this protocol aren't new. But the product that will benefit the skydiving community using an old protocol, accessible via the D connector on most Sony DV cams, all HDV cams, the XDCAM EX, and other as-yet-to-be-announced models. Sony is sharing info on the protocol, just gotta ask or look around. It's there. Sony sells a connector for the D link that controls zoom, start/stop/ focus, and more. It's been discussed and photographs provided in this forum over the past few months, Laszlo built one recently.

HDMI doesn't fully support bi-directional control in these cameras. It could, but at a significant additional expense for zero gain, IMO. And no DV camcorders have HDMI. Thankfully, no one is going down that road.

Quote

I don't frequent the photo/video threads too much so I hadn't read the other thread.

]
Well then, spend a lil' more time around here then!

[Station 0]

just wondering if anyone else was jumping this camera yet?
a friend of mine is returning his HC7 because he finds the OIS jitter makes it unjumpable, is the HC9 OIS improved in any way over the HC7?, do you find the enhancements of the HC9 outweigh the EIS of the HC5?
just trying to get some more opinions if they're out there...
thanks

[DSE 3]

OIS is OIS.
Either turn off stabilization, or deal with OIS. If you're freeflying, OIS isn't useful, even with Sony's cams. At least the lens parks on Sony cams, some other brands don't.
EIS is your friend in that case, although EIS is becoming very rare.

[HSPScott 0]

I got 8 jumps on mine last weekend. The quality is great. I put it in a cookie box on a FTP.

[macca_33 0]

Very good info so far in this thread, but has anyone used this camera while freeflying?
If so how did it hold up?
Top mount or side?
Box or bracket?

I'm looking very closely at buying one of these and as most of my jumps are sit/ head down I'm interested in finding out the picture quality in these orientations.

Thanks

[Supergeil 0]

Very nice cam!
Could very well be my next cam.

But what is the + - with the tape instead of memorycard?
With the card you get rid of a lot of mechanic...

[shaggio 0]

I was almost ready to buy an HC9 since my pc1000 died. However, I noticed it only has Monotone, mosaic, black and white fades. No overlap and no wipe.

I use overlap constantly focusing on the students face.

Is there anyway to add these features??

[DSE 3]

Quote

I was almost ready to buy an HC9 since my pc1000 died. However, I noticed it only has Monotone, mosaic, black and white fades. No overlap and no wipe.

I use overlap constantly focusing on the students face.

Is there anyway to add these features??

No, there isn't. This is generally done in post rather than in the camera with the direction of workflows.

[bokor 0]

Quote

Very good info so far in this thread, but has anyone used this camera while freeflying?
If so how did it hold up?
Top mount or side?
Box or bracket?

I'm looking very closely at buying one of these and as most of my jumps are sit/ head down I'm interested in finding out the picture quality in these orientations.

Thanks

So, is HC-9 working for freeflying, or not?

[flyingfrog 0]

Quote

Cookie

BTW we have redesigned the HC box. It will now open on the side to flip the view finder out and if you are game enough. You can side mount it.

Stock will be available in the next 4-6weeks

Cookie

is it ready for order now? haven't found the HC9 on your homepage
(looking for a blackbox to side mount)

[DSE 3]

Avery Badenhop (Team Ill Vision) is jumping one as well, as a top mount on a helmet I couldn't identify.
I don't know how much freeflying he does.

[mindway69 0]

Ok, I have been poking around in this forum trying to get as much info as possible to decide which camera to get, which will impact which helmet I get. HD seems to be the way to go in many ways, one of which is the decreasing availability of PCs now that they have been discontinued. I keep seeing these two issues touched on, but not conclusively addressed:

1. Has anyone pulled off a successful side mount? (I saw something about Cookie having a side mount available shortly....are there any pics/prices/dimensions available? Seems big to get on the side)

2. I keep reading about the EIS and OIS not being beneficial for freefliers. What I don't know is how not using this compares to the PCs. Was the PC series better for freeflying or had an image stabilization format that worked better with freeflying, or was it simply turned off in that instace as well. I guess what I'm trying to ask is if the HDs are simply not any better for freeflying with regard to camera shake or are they worse than the PCs?

Thanks for everyone's advice in advance!

P.S. if it helps to know at all, I am a weekend jumper looking to get into shooting video to assist with coaching and organizing, so it is not a quality issue as much as if I was shooting tandems.

[dragon2 0]

1. I think the current lineup of HDV cameras isn't suitable for sidemounting, all are too big.
2. OIS = bad for skydivers in most cases, EIS = fine for skydivers since you can turn that off if it bugs you (most jumpers I know turn it off for skydiving, it makes for smoother freefall footage). The PC series and most other Sony cams have EIS.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[mindway69 0]

Thanks for the info. So it sounds like the HD cams aren't an improvement for freeflying camera shake, but can be used the same way as the PCs by just turning off the OIS/EIS....am I right?

Are there any other kinds of cameras that are being jumped that anyone would recommend that are side mount replacements for the PC series?

[PharmerPhil 0]

Quote

(most jumpers I know turn it off for skydiving)

I have to disagree. Most jumpers I know leave EIS on for smoother footage. Particularly with HD on a big screen where every little bit of movement is noticeable. OIS on the other hand makes for less smooth footage in freefall. IMHO, I rank smoothness from best to worst as EIS (on), no IS, and OIS. It is the one reason I went with an HC5 rather than an HC7 or 9.

[dragon2 0]

I must say i haven't tried it with my HC5 but on a TRV/PC series it is noticeable if you leave the EIS on, you get shakier freefall and even shakier CRW footage than if you turn it off.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[DSE 3]

Merely being widescreen vs 4:3 makes HD appear to be more shaky. It's not, but now the eye has a greater horizontal area to make you think you're seeing more shake.
As a general rule, EIS should be on for skydiving. I don't have problems on my belly with OIS, and I know freefliers that don't have OIS problems. I'm convinced it's a combination of side mount, flying style, and skill of the person, but then again, I don't freefly well enough to say "I don't have a problem with OIS."