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Camera rating

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Curious...what is your opinion on a camera rating?
Is a rating without specific BSR's of any value? Should a BSR be created for camera flyers flying with tandems? 4 way? Special events? None of the above?
I talked to a guy this morning who is flying camera w/tandems at 60 skydives. This sparked a discussion between us about BSR vs recommendations.
Looking forward to your thoughts.

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Even if they had tunnel time its not acceptable ,
There are just to many reasons to list here guys...
If i remember correctly here the bsr says you should be tandem rated to film tandems . Somebody look this up please, I don't have a manual handy here.


A friend will bail you out of jail , a REAL friend will be sitting next to you in the cell slapping your hand saying "DUDE THAT WAS AWSUM " ................

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What tandem instructor would let him do it? Tandem instructors have died from things like this! 60 jumps thats insane...



The SIM , section 6-8, contains recommendations. The tandem instructor is in charge of the jump though. Although, I agree that 60 jumps seems an insanely low number, I don't think that jump number is the only significant parameter that the TI needs to consider.

I'm curious as to how many documented cases there actually are relating to camera flyers being responsible for a problem as well as documenting the experience level and other characteristics of the camera flyers involved. It may just be that this is not as serious a problem as we are led to believe from our own instincts and anecdotes.

I don't think at this point that additional BSR's are necessary. A camera rating? That's an interesting concept. What would be the requirements for such a thing?

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Even if they had tunnel time its not acceptable ,
There are just to many reasons to list here guys...
If i remember correctly here the bsr says you should be tandem rated to film tandems . Somebody look this up please, I don't have a manual handy here.



No it's not a BSR. You may be thinking of a recommendation in the IRM relating to AFF.

Edit: Section 4-2: 4.b.(2) of the IRM states that only camera flyers who hold an AFF rating may interact with students ...

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BSR only says 200 jumps to fly a camera in SIM sec 6.8.
I don't have a PDF of the IRM, but believe it calls for 500 jumps.
if it does, it's almost contrapuntal to the SIM, because the SIM talks about 200 jumps and tandem students in the same section, but IIRC, the IRM calls for 500.
However, I believe all of the tandem manufacturers require that a camera flyer be tandem-qualified, or 500 jumps, prior to jumping with a tandem.

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As a tandem instructor i would never let a thing like that happen .I am the pilot in command ,which means i am in charge and responsible for my passengers safety. This is putting the passengers safety at risk.


A friend will bail you out of jail , a REAL friend will be sitting next to you in the cell slapping your hand saying "DUDE THAT WAS AWSUM " ................

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Its against the Tandem manufacturer's guidelines.

I think hypothetically they can loose their rating? Perhaps I'm smoking something... That is besides the fact.....

Camera Rating? Aren't you already supposed to be a certified tandem instructor to be a tandem videographer? I know most of us don't, but this is already written up and not followed.

Like swooping, perhaps education is more the answer. Of course, we have all heard it before, someone flying a camera before they are ready even after we've all have given them crap. I can think of one newbie recently that we are all awaiting the outcome. But again he'll probably be fine...

I think a camera rating is a great idea for jumping with tandems, and needs to be enforced. However, for sport, POV, the 200 minimum is probably still a good number.

As for accidents, they generally revolve around the trapdoor or someone too amped, coming in too fast.

-Trunk
HYPOXIC

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From the vector tandem manual:

1) Relative worker must have a minimum of 500 relative works skydives; or

2) Relative worker must be either a current Tandem Instructor or a current AFF jumpmaster.

3) Relative worker must have made at least 100 relative work jumps in a the last year.

4) Cameramen must meet all the above guidelines, and in addition, must have at least 100 camera jumps.
HYPOXIC

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Camera Rating? Aren't you already supposed to be a certified tandem instructor to be a tandem videographer?



That's an unenforceable tandem manufacturer's "guideline."

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I know most of us don't, but this is already written up and not followed.



That's because it's not enforceable.

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HMMM......60 jumps, I am guessing that if he was talking to you it was for advice, i hope. I am in agreement, no way should that guy be filming tandems.

Although, I did two this weekend, one jump with one extra person stinging and another with 6 people coming in doing a round on the passenger. I did not check jumps numbers but I am sure that there were a couple people with low numbers. The TM was OK with it and the jump was planned with my input, and all went well. Its really no different tagging along or filming the tandem in an aspect of safety. From a camera flyers prospective it is much more dangerous to have meat missles flying around while I am working!

I have seen alot of new jumpers strapping on cameras and more than a few get talked into filming tandems by the DZ due to a lack of Camera Flyers. Lets face it, getting to a level where you can consistently and safely film tandems and put out a quality product takes ALOT of time, money and practice. I don't have exact numbers but I bet I have somewhere between 8-12K invested between equipment and jumps developing skills.

I think we need (as already stated) enforceable BSR's.

Ohh and having to be tandem qualified to film em is a little unfair. I am a type one diebedic and could never get the FAA medical.....(legally).
.......I hereby reject your reality and instead choose to insert my own!


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I would like to see a video rating, however, I don’t believe it should be a requirement to shoot tandems and AFF jumps. This might hurt business for smaller dropzones or dropzones operating between videographers leaving, and others beginning with cameras to replace those leaving.
Advantages of a video rating include, but are not limited to:
1- Allowing others at visited drozones to know that you are experienced if you want to film there.
2- Allowing new or visiting instructors to be more confident that you know what you are doing.
3- Students will have more confidence in your safety record and not be distracted by the thought of you injuring or killing them.
4- Allowing for discounted jump rates at dropzones that give discounts to employees with two or more ratings (if you’ve only got one other rating).
5- Ratings would help motivate new camera jumpers to become certified as proficient.
6- It would just make me feel cool to have the rating.

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You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink it... All the info a camera flyer ever wantd to know is out there if they look for it. Issue I see is more and more starting camera flyers want to be Norman Kent after 5 jumps and never take the time to actuallly learn about what they are truly doing and its potential impact to another persons skydive. There are a few people I've met both locally and during my travels that have no idea about what the root cause of all the Tandem incidents have been and how the camera flyer played (or didn't play) a part in the incident. Most of them have been 300 or more jumps since they last did a tandem and forget what it was like and are only in it for themselves.

I would support an additional rating to allow camera flyers to work with students. Thats what Tandem students are - students, no different then an AFF student. The sooner the camera flyer treats them as one and not as just a quick buck and a free skydive the better the experience is for the student. Part of the information I think that needs to be covered are the danger areas around students both in the air and in the ground/airplane. The tandem manufactors are already requiring the Video guy have a current TM rating but no one follows that. I think that a gear familarization session should be required so the Video Flyer can at least identfy issues like disconnected hooks/laterals, etc. THhey don't need to know the decision tree for mal's but at least know what a disconnected lateral looks like.

A rating just to strap on a camera is too much. If the USPA had an endorsement system like a few areas do that allows you to take the test and be signed off locally and recieve a stamp on your licence that would be ideal but currently there would need to be a whole rating and fee and things created and that will just turn it into a money grabbing exercise and an abandoning of the rating. Having a rating for people working with students on the other hand is not a bad thing. It holds those people up to at least a minimum knowledge standerd and can hold them as responcible for breaking of BSR's as other instructors are and could have punishment of loss/suspension of their ratings also.
Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

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Having a rating for people working with students on the other hand is not a bad thing. It holds those people up to at least a minimum knowledge standerd and can hold them as responcible for breaking of BSR's as other instructors are and could have punishment of loss/suspension of their ratings also.



OK ... so how about a USPA Coach rating + at least 200 jumps?

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3- Students will have more confidence in your safety record and not be distracted by the thought of you injuring or killing them.



It's been my experience that the students have no clue or concern about the safety issues involved with the camera flyer.

Just as a side note, I have to say that, if the vidiot rating is implemented it might also be very beneficial to the students if certified vidiots were required to demonstrate somehow that they at least posses some basic knowledge of photography and editing so that they might receive a better value in the end product ;)


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6- It would just make me feel cool to have the rating.



Alrighty, then.

:)

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1- Allowing others at visited drozones to know that you are experienced if you want to film there.
2- Allowing new or visiting instructors to be more confident that you know what you are doing.
3- Students will have more confidence in your safety record and not be distracted by the thought of you injuring or killing them.



I do agree with your advantages, however, no matter how many of my videos or past jumps have been tandem videos, most dz's i go to for a first time still make you do a "practice" jump with a non video buyer to see how good you are...i can just see some people getting the rating, not doing videos, and because of the rating go to a new dz a year later and signing up to do videos...and possibly cause some of the same problems as the new camera flyers

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well ether he paid someone lots of money to allow him to do it or whoever allowed him to do it is and idiot. or what i think is the case is that someone tested him and thought he was good to go... then again as someone wise once said 10 000 jumps worth of experience comes after 10 000 jumps no matter how bright u are...
anyway i have still only done 2 camera jumps (my last two) and dont think it is as bad as everyone said it was but i certainly dont think im ready to andle the shit that COULD come with filming a tandem....
thats my 2cents...

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An addition to the coach rating would not be a bad option at all. Have it be Coach + Video. It would only take another hour or two at the end of a coach course for the information to be taught.

Basic principles of photography should be added also. Not darkroom techniques but basic info about wide angle lens and lighting. Also point students to a list of photography books/website for more info.
Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

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well ether he paid someone lots of money to allow him to do it or whoever allowed him to do it is and idiot. or what i think is the case is that someone tested him and thought he was good to go... then again as someone wise once said 10 000 jumps worth of experience comes after 10 000 jumps no matter how bright u are...
anyway i have still only done 2 camera jumps (my last two) and dont think it is as bad as everyone said it was but i certainly dont think im ready to andle the shit that COULD come with filming a tandem....
thats my 2cents...




This really shows your inexperience. 2 jumps with a camera and you say "it's not so bad" yet others with thousands of jumps look back at having started jumping camera as early as you and say it was a mistake. hmm maybe you should reread what you wrote about the 10,000 jumps.

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This is a tough question I'm not sure a rating is the right answer.

I do like the idea of some kind of training for camera flyers be it formal or otherwise. I had a mentor for learning how to video RW. I have had some mentoring for my tandem videography but its been a lot more like pulling teeth to get pointers and advice on how to be a great tandem videographer. fwiw I don't like the idea of requiring a TM rating to be a tandem videographer... as I've never done and do desire to ever do a tandem. I don't have a problem with requiring that a videographer becoming familiar with tandem equipment if they are going to be with tandems.

I also agree that it is a good idea that new camera flyers should have a chance to learn about photography basics... (perhaps a seminar could be done annually in conjunction with safety day...)
Livin' on the Edge... sleeping with my rigger's wife...

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