garywainwright 0 #1 January 14, 2008 There was a post a while ago about cutaways actually being used - well here goes... A friend was doing a jump at the weekend. On deployment his excess brake line wrapped around part of his camera helmet and popped a brake but remained entangled with his helmet. This person was then rotating (small high performance canopy etc). He popped the other brake but was still entangled. He then cutaway the helmet, untangled the brake line and landed with his helmet under his arm. To me there are 2 important lessons here; 1 Have a cutaway and practice locating and pulling it. My friend had recently changed helmets and spent a few seconds reaching for where the cutaway was on his old helmet. 2 Stow your excess brake line. It only takes a few seconds. stay safe!!http://www.garywainwright.co.uk Instagram gary_wainwright_uk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freefalle 0 #2 January 14, 2008 Thanks for sharing that Gary, certainly something to make people think. That jump could have very easily ended up in the incident forum. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PharmerPhil 0 #3 January 14, 2008 Quote2 Stow your excess brake line. It only takes a few seconds. Amen. It scares me when I see camera flyers leaving big lens catching loops of brakeline hanging out there. I usually (always?) use packers, but I always stow my brakes and excess line as soon as I land. Thanks for the post, and I'm glad this worked out okay. I look at helmet cutaways the way I look at AADs. Never want to use one, but it is reassuring to hear when they do work properly. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Laszloimage 0 #4 January 14, 2008 Thanks Gary, Very useful info. "Stow your excess brake line" is very important! I've seen this happening before... -Laszlo- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bomb420 1 #5 January 14, 2008 Never even thought of that before. I've become really lazy and never stow the excess. Thank you for teaching me a lesson! Glad your friend is ok. -TrunkHYPOXIC Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
garywainwright 0 #6 January 14, 2008 In the Patrick Passe film 'Anti Gravity' there is a great sequence of the french 8 way team. It includes a slo mo clip of the camera guy deploying and you see his excess brake line snaking all over his cameras. Makes me shudder every time!http://www.garywainwright.co.uk Instagram gary_wainwright_uk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
x3mcam 0 #7 January 14, 2008 Add to that the fact that there are solutions available that stow your excess brake line in such a way that it stays safe and cannot fly around. You can never be too safe :) Thomas Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rwieder 0 #8 January 14, 2008 These types of situations/scenarios should be considered at helmet selection time as well. I've heard a ton of camera/vidiots say "If i go in, i'm going in looking good" I say Screw that, i'm not even thinking twice, i'm cutting the helmet away, then the main and deploying my reserve. I also saw a vidiot under canopy below me once, he stayed with a line over intentionally to get low enough so he wouldn't have to look real hard for his main & free bag. I fly a FlatTop Pro, and an Optik illusion,(I'm more comfortable with the FlatTop Pro) both with excellent cut-away systems. If the situation presents itself i'll use them, no thinking twice. Stay safe guys!-Richard- "You're Holding The Rope And I'm Taking The Fall" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PharmerPhil 0 #9 January 14, 2008 Quote i'm cutting the helmet away, then the main and deploying my reserve. You sure about that? Had I done that, I'd be down two camera helmets for no good reason. My procedure is to cutaway the main, and then, ONLY IF MY HELMET IS ENTANGLED, cutaway my helmet. Think about it. If you cutaway your helmet first, how do you even know your canopy and helmet are or would have been entangled? Maybe you did things in the wrong order when you wrote this, but make sure you have your order correctly when the S$%& hits the fan. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rwieder 0 #10 January 14, 2008 QuoteYou sure about that? Yes, not a shred of doubt in my mind. QuoteHad I done that, I'd be down two camera helmets for no good reason. Which can be replaced, unlike your life. QuoteMy procedure is to cutaway the main, and then, ONLY IF MY HELMET IS ENTANGLED, cutaway my helmet. Why would you even be considering cutting away your helmet cam if it's not possibly entangled, or could be at main release? You think for a moment. How much altitude have you lost by now? But nonetheless, if that's your procedure, then i'd advise you to stick to your guns. QuoteThink about it. If you cutaway your helmet first, how do you even know your canopy and helmet are or would have been entangled? I could care less about a camera helmet. I can always build another. My theory is to jet the helmet first if i even think it's entangled in my suspension lines. So the suspension lines after cutting away the main canopy first wont have the drag of the canopy on them possibly and probably complicating the already bad situation. Let's see, i don't know about you, but i dump at 2,500 AGL. That doesn't leave enough time to dick around contemplating on whether your helmet is entangled in your suspension lines or not. QuoteMaybe you did things in the wrong order when you wrote this, No, not at all. This is my plan, should anything ever happen (And Murphy's law is ever present) So it could and may happen on any jump i make. If i fly camera long enough, i will have to deal with it. That's the reason i run through my EAP's constantly at home. I will improvise the procedure i've outlined, and i won't even think twice about it. Quotebut make sure you have your order correctly when the S$%& hits the fan.*** You too my friend. I'm not saying my way, or your way is right or wrong. No pissing contest here. Just two guys with two different theories, both of which IMO will work. But on this one, i think it best for us to agree to dissagree, and leave it at that. There's nothing i can say to you to get you to change your EAP's, (Emergency Action Procedures) and there's nothing you can say to me to get me to alter my EAP's either. Thanks for the discussion, and take care, be safe.-Richard- "You're Holding The Rope And I'm Taking The Fall" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PharmerPhil 0 #11 January 14, 2008 QuoteThanks for the discussion, and take care, be safe Ditto. At least you are thinking about it. My point is to do just that. IMO, there are lots of if/thens in your emergency procedures. One of mine is "if" my camera helmet is not tangled, "then" go right to the reserve without jettisoning the helmet. This saves both time and altitude (as well as helmets). I couldn't know whether it will be tangled until I have cutaway my main. And while I wouldn't hesitate to cutaway a helmet if it is tangled, I wouldn't waste time on it if it is clear. On a lighter note, jettisoning an untangled camera helmet precludes getting shots of the cutaway... http://www.philroberson.com/Image%20Pages%20Folder/J715b.htm Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites saly 0 #12 January 15, 2008 Have you considered that if your helmet is hung up in the lines that when you cut away your main, you may very well hang yourself and break your neck. Cutting away the helmet means that it will be pulled clear of your head when you cutaway the main. Just a thought --------------------------------------------- If you don't have wings you will never fly Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PharmerPhil 0 #13 January 15, 2008 But again, why would you cut a helmet away if you don't even know if it is hung up? You can't tell until you cutaway the main (even if there is a line on your helmet, it is quite possible it will clear when you cutaway the canopy). Using rwieder 's argument, every cutaway main involves a cutaway helmet regardless of whether it is necessary or not. That is just foolish. And again, it is not only a waste of helmets and cameras, but of time and altitude as well. I had never heard of anyone using this as their standard EP. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites saly 0 #14 January 15, 2008 The first course of action is to determine that your helmet is hung up either by feeling by sweeping your hand or that your head is yanked at an odd angle then choose, hook knife, helmet cutaway or main cutaway. This argument is much like telling a some one in a crw wrap what to do, its case specifc. --------------------------------------------- If you don't have wings you will never fly Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rwieder 0 #15 January 16, 2008 QuoteUsing rwieder 's argument, every cutaway main involves a cutaway helmet regardless of whether it is necessary or not. No, No, No. You severely misunderstood me. Those words never came out of my mouth. My whole premise was to cut away my camera helmet if i even suspect it's tangled up on anything. The reason i gave for this action is because if you dump at 2500 AGL, you've basically got 7-9 seconds to make the "right decision" Do you want to spend that precious time deciding whether or not your really snagged, or cut that high priced camera helmet away to insure no entanglement at canopy swap? QuoteThat is just foolish. And again, it is not only a waste of helmets and cameras, but of time and altitude as well. I had never heard of anyone using this as their standard EP. You still haven't heard me say it. I will say this, yeah i know how much helmets, camcorders, ring sights, cam-eye 11's & still cams costs. I have 3 sets of them. The most expensive of them being around a 6K investment. I would cut it away in an instant if i even suspected it was tangled should things go wrong at deployment time. But i would not spend my last seconds on the planet dicking around deciding if it's snagged with my suspension lines or not. I've had riser slap like a mofo before. (Chest strap too tight) You'll know if your suspension lines are entangled way before you unlatch that camera helmet. Again, this is just discussion, and sharing of ideas. Again, take care & be safe. This is what i said: QuoteI could care less about a camera helmet. I can always build another. My theory is to jet the helmet first if i even think it's entangled in my suspension lines. So the suspension lines after cutting away the main canopy first wont have the drag of the canopy on them possibly and probably complicating the already bad situation. Let's see, i don't know about you, but i dump at 2,500 AGL. That doesn't leave enough time to dick around contemplating on whether your helmet is entangled in your suspension lines or not. There ya have it.-Richard- "You're Holding The Rope And I'm Taking The Fall" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites velocityphoto 0 #16 January 16, 2008 I complained to some packers at the convention one year for not stowing my brake lines properly. They looked at me like i was kidding them . I rest my case now ... :) A friend will bail you out of jail , a REAL friend will be sitting next to you in the cell slapping your hand saying "DUDE THAT WAS AWSUM " ................ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites packing_jarrett 0 #17 January 16, 2008 Quote I complained to some packers at the convention one year for not stowing my brake lines properly. as a packer I see that everyone wants their breaks stowed a certain way. If the customer doesn't stow or set his/her own breaks I just leave them un-stowed. FWIW I have 500 camera jumps and do not set my breaks. Never had a problem with it.Na' Cho' Cheese Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites velocityphoto 0 #18 January 16, 2008 Sounds like a bad thing waiting to happen to me. A friend will bail you out of jail , a REAL friend will be sitting next to you in the cell slapping your hand saying "DUDE THAT WAS AWSUM " ................ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites x3mcam 0 #19 January 16, 2008 Quote FWIW I have 500 camera jumps and do not set my breaks. Never had a problem with it. I have close to 1500. OK, so does that mean that I don't need to set my brake line excess? As with all jumping, one can never attempt to be too safe. In the end, specially in this sport, stupidity will make you pay .... Thomas Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Liemberg 0 #20 January 16, 2008 Quote FWIW I have 500 camera jumps and do not set my breaks. Never had a problem with it In statistics 500 is nothing more than a sample to determine questions like 'will the democrats or the republicans win the next election'. It is a pretty worthless sample when you want to determine if it is possible that a stablehand who as a daily job has to remove the manure in the stable will receive a deadly kick from one of the horses. This is because things that don't happen verry often, they... well...don't happen verry often. When they CAN happen however, if they have grim and possible deadly consequences (like the horse 'that never ever kicks' killing the stablehand) it may pay off to change your behavior when possible. (like if the horse CANNOT kick you or the exces stow CANNOT interfere with the camerahelmet) YMMV. (Watch out Jarrett - they are all sharpening their knives right now "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PharmerPhil 0 #21 January 16, 2008 Not to beat a dead horse but... It now sounds like (contrary to your original post) you will make an evaluation about whether you "think it's entangled" before deciding whether to cutaway your helmet. (Re-read your original post where you said "...Screw that, i'm not even thinking twice, i'm cutting the helmet away, then the main and deploying my reserve"). So if you don't think it is entangled before you cutaway your main, what happens after you cutaway your main? Do you then make a second evaluation? At that point I hope so, but it sounds like you're burning a lot of altitude and time. Particularly for someone who jumps camera and dumps at 2500 feet. You should really re-read your own multiple posts here such as: Quote... i'm not even thinking twice, i'm cutting the helmet away, then the main and deploying my reserve... ...My theory is to jet the helmet first if i even think it's entangled in my suspension lines... ...That doesn't leave enough time to dick around contemplating on whether your helmet is entangled in your suspension lines or not. This sounds like a lot of bravado rather than a well thought out plan, and sounds like you haven't really thought through a step one, step two, etc. I guess I am encouraging you to re-think your procedure, despite the fact that you seem more interested in a pissing contest than an honest evaluation. I don't think I will change such a mind, but hopefully others that read this thread will think these things through more completely and learn from them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites packing_jarrett 0 #22 January 16, 2008 I said " for what its worth" That could also mean its worth nothing!Na' Cho' Cheese Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rwieder 0 #23 January 17, 2008 Quotedespite the fact that you seem more interested in a pissing contest than an honest evaluation You obviously don't know me. I'm being quite the gentleman. If a pissing contest is what i wanted...You'd know it, trust me. You be cool, and safe. (I have been "hearing you")-Richard- "You're Holding The Rope And I'm Taking The Fall" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
PharmerPhil 0 #11 January 14, 2008 QuoteThanks for the discussion, and take care, be safe Ditto. At least you are thinking about it. My point is to do just that. IMO, there are lots of if/thens in your emergency procedures. One of mine is "if" my camera helmet is not tangled, "then" go right to the reserve without jettisoning the helmet. This saves both time and altitude (as well as helmets). I couldn't know whether it will be tangled until I have cutaway my main. And while I wouldn't hesitate to cutaway a helmet if it is tangled, I wouldn't waste time on it if it is clear. On a lighter note, jettisoning an untangled camera helmet precludes getting shots of the cutaway... http://www.philroberson.com/Image%20Pages%20Folder/J715b.htm Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
saly 0 #12 January 15, 2008 Have you considered that if your helmet is hung up in the lines that when you cut away your main, you may very well hang yourself and break your neck. Cutting away the helmet means that it will be pulled clear of your head when you cutaway the main. Just a thought --------------------------------------------- If you don't have wings you will never fly Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PharmerPhil 0 #13 January 15, 2008 But again, why would you cut a helmet away if you don't even know if it is hung up? You can't tell until you cutaway the main (even if there is a line on your helmet, it is quite possible it will clear when you cutaway the canopy). Using rwieder 's argument, every cutaway main involves a cutaway helmet regardless of whether it is necessary or not. That is just foolish. And again, it is not only a waste of helmets and cameras, but of time and altitude as well. I had never heard of anyone using this as their standard EP. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
saly 0 #14 January 15, 2008 The first course of action is to determine that your helmet is hung up either by feeling by sweeping your hand or that your head is yanked at an odd angle then choose, hook knife, helmet cutaway or main cutaway. This argument is much like telling a some one in a crw wrap what to do, its case specifc. --------------------------------------------- If you don't have wings you will never fly Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rwieder 0 #15 January 16, 2008 QuoteUsing rwieder 's argument, every cutaway main involves a cutaway helmet regardless of whether it is necessary or not. No, No, No. You severely misunderstood me. Those words never came out of my mouth. My whole premise was to cut away my camera helmet if i even suspect it's tangled up on anything. The reason i gave for this action is because if you dump at 2500 AGL, you've basically got 7-9 seconds to make the "right decision" Do you want to spend that precious time deciding whether or not your really snagged, or cut that high priced camera helmet away to insure no entanglement at canopy swap? QuoteThat is just foolish. And again, it is not only a waste of helmets and cameras, but of time and altitude as well. I had never heard of anyone using this as their standard EP. You still haven't heard me say it. I will say this, yeah i know how much helmets, camcorders, ring sights, cam-eye 11's & still cams costs. I have 3 sets of them. The most expensive of them being around a 6K investment. I would cut it away in an instant if i even suspected it was tangled should things go wrong at deployment time. But i would not spend my last seconds on the planet dicking around deciding if it's snagged with my suspension lines or not. I've had riser slap like a mofo before. (Chest strap too tight) You'll know if your suspension lines are entangled way before you unlatch that camera helmet. Again, this is just discussion, and sharing of ideas. Again, take care & be safe. This is what i said: QuoteI could care less about a camera helmet. I can always build another. My theory is to jet the helmet first if i even think it's entangled in my suspension lines. So the suspension lines after cutting away the main canopy first wont have the drag of the canopy on them possibly and probably complicating the already bad situation. Let's see, i don't know about you, but i dump at 2,500 AGL. That doesn't leave enough time to dick around contemplating on whether your helmet is entangled in your suspension lines or not. There ya have it.-Richard- "You're Holding The Rope And I'm Taking The Fall" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
velocityphoto 0 #16 January 16, 2008 I complained to some packers at the convention one year for not stowing my brake lines properly. They looked at me like i was kidding them . I rest my case now ... :) A friend will bail you out of jail , a REAL friend will be sitting next to you in the cell slapping your hand saying "DUDE THAT WAS AWSUM " ................ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
packing_jarrett 0 #17 January 16, 2008 Quote I complained to some packers at the convention one year for not stowing my brake lines properly. as a packer I see that everyone wants their breaks stowed a certain way. If the customer doesn't stow or set his/her own breaks I just leave them un-stowed. FWIW I have 500 camera jumps and do not set my breaks. Never had a problem with it.Na' Cho' Cheese Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
velocityphoto 0 #18 January 16, 2008 Sounds like a bad thing waiting to happen to me. A friend will bail you out of jail , a REAL friend will be sitting next to you in the cell slapping your hand saying "DUDE THAT WAS AWSUM " ................ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
x3mcam 0 #19 January 16, 2008 Quote FWIW I have 500 camera jumps and do not set my breaks. Never had a problem with it. I have close to 1500. OK, so does that mean that I don't need to set my brake line excess? As with all jumping, one can never attempt to be too safe. In the end, specially in this sport, stupidity will make you pay .... Thomas Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Liemberg 0 #20 January 16, 2008 Quote FWIW I have 500 camera jumps and do not set my breaks. Never had a problem with it In statistics 500 is nothing more than a sample to determine questions like 'will the democrats or the republicans win the next election'. It is a pretty worthless sample when you want to determine if it is possible that a stablehand who as a daily job has to remove the manure in the stable will receive a deadly kick from one of the horses. This is because things that don't happen verry often, they... well...don't happen verry often. When they CAN happen however, if they have grim and possible deadly consequences (like the horse 'that never ever kicks' killing the stablehand) it may pay off to change your behavior when possible. (like if the horse CANNOT kick you or the exces stow CANNOT interfere with the camerahelmet) YMMV. (Watch out Jarrett - they are all sharpening their knives right now "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PharmerPhil 0 #21 January 16, 2008 Not to beat a dead horse but... It now sounds like (contrary to your original post) you will make an evaluation about whether you "think it's entangled" before deciding whether to cutaway your helmet. (Re-read your original post where you said "...Screw that, i'm not even thinking twice, i'm cutting the helmet away, then the main and deploying my reserve"). So if you don't think it is entangled before you cutaway your main, what happens after you cutaway your main? Do you then make a second evaluation? At that point I hope so, but it sounds like you're burning a lot of altitude and time. Particularly for someone who jumps camera and dumps at 2500 feet. You should really re-read your own multiple posts here such as: Quote... i'm not even thinking twice, i'm cutting the helmet away, then the main and deploying my reserve... ...My theory is to jet the helmet first if i even think it's entangled in my suspension lines... ...That doesn't leave enough time to dick around contemplating on whether your helmet is entangled in your suspension lines or not. This sounds like a lot of bravado rather than a well thought out plan, and sounds like you haven't really thought through a step one, step two, etc. I guess I am encouraging you to re-think your procedure, despite the fact that you seem more interested in a pissing contest than an honest evaluation. I don't think I will change such a mind, but hopefully others that read this thread will think these things through more completely and learn from them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
packing_jarrett 0 #22 January 16, 2008 I said " for what its worth" That could also mean its worth nothing!Na' Cho' Cheese Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rwieder 0 #23 January 17, 2008 Quotedespite the fact that you seem more interested in a pissing contest than an honest evaluation You obviously don't know me. I'm being quite the gentleman. If a pissing contest is what i wanted...You'd know it, trust me. You be cool, and safe. (I have been "hearing you")-Richard- "You're Holding The Rope And I'm Taking The Fall" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
