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Linas120

Refueling with the engine running?

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Your use of the words "Not a big deal" certainly implies it.

Of course you're not "advocating" complacency, you're just spreading it by saying something which is deadly serious is "Not a big deal."



That is more a failure of your understanding than anything else. "Not a big deal" is because it has been done for a very long time with no issues.

I do see you just ignored the "If it is done correctly". That implies a process that has been tested and approved.

Maybe you would like to list the number of accidents at skydiving centers due to hot fueling turbines?

Then maybe compare that to the number of people getting hurt in a DZ fire pit.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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Maybe you would like to list the number of accidents at skydiving centers due to hot fueling turbines?



Maybe you should lists the number of "Hot Refueling" experts doing the refueling. Blind ignorance will only go so far. Pull your head out of the sand, realize this is most certainly a safety hazard, and encourage training for this process instead of coming up with the sarcastic bit all of the time. I'm calling BS on all of the posts that are counting on blind faith that all is well, and nothing is going to happen just because we've been doing this forever and nothing has ever happened. But then again it's "Not a big deal" "If it's done correctly" right? Why don't you tell the crowd how many steps there should be during the process of refueling while the turbine engines running? Since you obviously infer you know all about it. If you were asked to create a JSA regarding this procedure, what would it be. You've loudly proclaimed how safe it is, what do you know about the procedure(s) The one thing we've all not mentioned as of yet, we need to remember and not forget on any load there are new jumpers, tandem passengers who don't have a clue what may, or may not happen. During my FJC way back when, this topic wasn't even mentioned. If we truely care about safety then we should acknowledge our responseabilities to the new people. Agreed?
-Richard-
"You're Holding The Rope And I'm Taking The Fall"

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I'd be uncomfortable boarding while a hot refueling was being done, but not just while the engines are running.



Unless I'm reading your post incorrectly, I think you don't follow the lingo here.

"Hot" refueling refers to fueling while the engines ARE running.;)


No, I understand the lingo perfectly.

Read post 15. It's a pretty long rant that includes the phrase "Personally, I will not board any aircraft while the engines are running." I don't know if he meant during a hot refuel or not, but it reads (at least to me) that he doesn't even want to board the airplane at all while the engines are running.

I wouldn't board the plane during a hot refuel. I wouldn't want to be on the plane during a hot refuel.

But I'll board while the engines are running (but the plane isn't being refueled). That's been standard procedure the few times I've jumped out of a turbine.
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

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Ron, let me just say that you're just as pleasant to deal with today as you've always been.



And you are just as 'logical' and argumentative as always.:S

You will notice that *you* replied to *me* and accused me of "encouraging complicity" not the other way around.

Of course, you STILL have not brought any data either.

And then of course YOU made a personal comment about me... You know playing the player not the ball.....

So overall.... Business as normal from you.... I would think a moderator would be above such behavior....
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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King Air:
1) Start fuel truck or turn on fuel farm.
2) Attach ground to aircraft after stopping.
3) Grab nozzle and ladder.
4) Fish fuel nozzle under aircraft to far side (co-pilot side).
5) Lean ladder up against nacelle.
6) If pilot hasn't feathered prop, pull ladder back down, jump up and down, yell and scream until pilot feathers prop.
7) Lean ladder back up against nacelle.
8) Take deep breath before climbing ladder.
9) Climb ladder, unlock cap and open.
10) Insert nozzle, start fueling and cursing because you are wearing a short sleeve shirt.
11) Fill nacelle tank to top.
12) Close and lock cap. Pound with fist to make sure its locked.
13) Climb down ladder, move everything over to pilot's side
14) Repeat process with even more cursing since pilot is now laughing at you.
15) Un hook ground wire and off you go.

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Caravan:

1) Start fuel truck/farm again.
2) Hook ground to closest wheel.
3) Grab a taller ladder and fuel nozzle.
4) Set ladder up at pilot side outboard fuel filler.
5) Climb ladder, open fuel filler, insert the nozzle and pump in 35 gallons, (varies by DZ), curse when you've pumped to fast and back pressure sprays it over you and the de-ice boot.
6) Close cap and lock, pound on it to make sure its locked.
7) Climb down ladder, move away.
8) Unhook ground and off you go.

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I'd be uncomfortable boarding while a hot refueling was being done, but not just while the engines are running.



Unless I'm reading your post incorrectly, I think you don't follow the lingo here.

"Hot" refueling refers to fueling while the engines ARE running.;)


No, I understand the lingo perfectly.

Read post 15. It's a pretty long rant that includes the phrase "Personally, I will not board any aircraft while the engines are running." I don't know if he meant during a hot refuel or not, but it reads (at least to me) that he doesn't even want to board the airplane at all while the engines are running.

I wouldn't board the plane during a hot refuel. I wouldn't want to be on the plane during a hot refuel.

But I'll board while the engines are running (but the plane isn't being refueled). That's been standard procedure the few times I've jumped out of a turbine.


I would hope that the poster meant while the engines are running "during refueling", as I've never known of a drop zone that shuts the engines down just to take on the next load of jumpers.:S

Not sure if it's been mentioned, but as a matter of safe ops jumpers should not be on the airplane during refueling whether the engines are running or not.
Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

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Maybe you should lists the number of "Hot Refueling" experts doing the refueling.



You go first. You are the one claiming that there is a danger. If it is so dangerous, then you should be able to show that by citing some accidents. It is up to you to prove data to back your point.

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Pull your head out of the sand, realize this is most certainly a safety hazard, and encourage training for this process instead of coming up with the sarcastic bit all of the time.



Well, the first thing you need to do is to identify the issue. You have brought nothing but claims of "The sky is falling". Once you can provide some data, then that data can be looked at to see if there is a trend. So far you have just brought claims based on theoretical issues based only on fear.

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Why don't you tell the crowd how many steps there should be during the process of refueling while the turbine engines running? Since you obviously infer you know all about it.



Maybe a better person to ask would be the guy that has done it a bunch.... He would be a better person to ask than me, who has only done it a few times or you who is just crying about a problem with no data to back it up.

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You've loudly proclaimed how safe it is



You have loudly proclaimed how dangerous it is... Yet you have not shown a SINGLE accident. I can think of the literally thousands of times the plane has been hot fuled at zhills and I can't think of a single incident.

So, thousands of events of no issue vs zero incidents..... The data seems to not support your claims. But please, bring some data to back up your position and then maybe we can see if there is a trend.

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If we truely care about safety then we should acknowledge our responseabilities to the new people. Agreed?



Of course, please bring some examples of accidents that we can study and learn from.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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Twin Otter:

1) Start truck/farm
2) Attach ground
3) If fuel quantity inaccurate stick tank for pilot after opening rear tank.
4) Signal pilot if tank stuck and pilot will tell how much to add. Pump in requested amount. Pump slow or you will take a bath.
5) If fuel quant ind is good watch pilot's hand signals for stopping the pumping process.
6) Close aft tank filler cap and make sure it is locked. Slide safety over cap if installed.
7) Very, very carefully slide your way to the fwd tank keeping in mind the spinny thing 10 inches from your head.
8) Repeat process as for aft tank.
9) When finish walk towards REAR of aircraft before moving away.
10) Remove ground wire and off you go.

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Do you know what a JSA, PJSM, RSMT's are? To write a proper procedure, you would need to know these things.



Well, it is clear that you do not know your FAA Regs.

Procedures for Hot Fuelling are not required for Part 91 operations.
As a matter of fact the FAA has no say whether a Part 91 operator may hot fuel or not. It is up to the DZ's local Fire Marshall.

But a Part 135 or 121 operation must have FAA approval as part of their OPs Specs and the procedure must be in their GOM.

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Well, it is clear that you do not know your FAA Regs.



Better than you do, you don't believe that and your as foolish as you seem. Now, when have you ever known emergency numbers posted at any drop zone cosistantly? When has the fire marshall EVER been contacted before Refueling while turbine engines are running during jump ops? Dou you have real and personal knowledge of this, or not? I'm calling you out smartass. I await your response impataintly. Where you from boy, North Carolina? Remain ignorant, and learn nothing, or keep an open mind and live forever. Or do you actually have any useful input to add that has anything to do with with S&T in this thread, I calculate not. (Personal observation, your all mouth, all show and no go)
-Richard-
"You're Holding The Rope And I'm Taking The Fall"

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You go first. You are the one claiming that there is a danger. If it is so dangerous, then you should be able to show that by citing some accidents. It is up to you to prove data to back your point.



Now wait a minute. Your the one who has been screaming from the rafters that it's a safe procedure. Now that I've called your bluff, you want to put it on me. I've already made references to some of the procedures that should take place before this procedure takes place.

That's quite allright, I could have written your reply before you did, it's at the very least of what I expected you to say.
-Richard-
"You're Holding The Rope And I'm Taking The Fall"

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Procedures for Hot Fuelling are not required for Part 91 operations.



This is a mildly interesting topic that has degraded into the usual bickering on DZ.com. For those interested in some reading, AC 150/5230-4A essentially confirms the assertion quoted above. I'm not really taking any sides, and more interested in highlighting an AC I didn't see referenced earlier in the thread.

From the AC:
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At airports not certificated under 14 CFR Part 139, fuel safety training programs should be developed.



In other words, the FAA has listed no rules, regulations, or requirements in this AC (outside of part 139) and leaves it up to the airport to determine what training programs (and by extension, operational procedures) are required.

As I read the AC, this 'safety training program' the AC stipulates could be as simple as a briefing with the person fueling in the case of small airports (ie: dropzones,) or a formal written procedure for larger operations.
--
Radio

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Now wait a minute. Your the one who has been screaming from the rafters that it's a safe procedure. Now that I've called your bluff, you want to put it on me.



"Screamimg from the rafters"???? I have said 'it is not a big deal provided precautions are taken'..... Precautions that seem to be working since you are unable to provide a SINGLE example of an incident.

Yet you still have not provided ONE example. You just keep crying about the sky falling.

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That's quite allright, I could have written your reply before you did, it's at the very least of what I expected you to say.



I am still waiting on you to provide ONE shred of data to back your position. How long do you think I should wait?

Instead, you have avoided answering and instead gone to trying to make it personal. I have just shown that your position is based without ONE shred of data to back it up.

When you bring some DATA rather than just unfounded claims.... I might take you seriously.

Seriously, bring some data and lets talk.... Until then I see no point in just letting you rant on me.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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Ron: You are quite easily one of the most unpleaseant monikers I've ever had the pleasure to run accros in these forums. All you want to do is run off at the mouth. But when challenged to a task, you try to make others appear ignorant, instead of coming clean with the truth that you don't know dick.
I have said 'it is not a big deal provided precautions are taken'

What precautions? Can you build a training matrix off of these precautions you refer to? Either you can, or can't, no exception to the rule. If you would, PLEASE, contribute to the S&training format of this topic, or don't respond out of pure ignorane again, I think we've all had enough.

This is the safty & Training Forum(s) Don't drag a perfectly good forum down for no reason at all. Contribute, Or be quite.
-Richard-
"You're Holding The Rope And I'm Taking The Fall"

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Ron: You are quite easily one of the most unpleaseant monikers I've ever had the pleasure to run accros in these forums. All you want to do is run off at the mouth. But when challenged to a task, you try to make others appear ignorant, instead of coming clean with the truth that you don't know dick.



Oh look, still no data, just lame personal attacks.

I asked you to bring data so we could have a discussion, instead you just insult and act like a know it all.

Since lame personal attacks seem to be the best you can do....until you bring some data, I'll just ignore you.... I don't know why I bothered even trying to have a serious discussion with you... You always act like only your opinion matters and when asked a question you start throwing insults.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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Now, when have you ever known emergency numbers posted at any drop zone cosistantly?



911

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When has the fire marshall EVER been contacted before Refueling while turbine engines



You don't need to contact the Fire Marshall before everytime you fuel. You contact the Fire Marshall to ask permission to Hot Fuel on a continuous basis.
The Fire Marshall then comes to inspect your fuel system and the way you fuel the aircraft (i.e. is a ground used) and then the Fire Marshall grants permission to the operator to Hot or Not to Hot Fuel.
If the Fire Marshall comes and does a spot inspection and sees that what you had told him would be done but wasn't next comes the hefty fine.

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Dou you have real and personal knowledge of this, or not



I believe my profile answers that one, but for you:

I worked at Skydive Crosskeys for 6 years, as a loader, hangar master, manifester, aircraft mechanic and ,YES, aircraft fueler.

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Where you from boy, North Carolina?



Actually Alaska. The 135 company I work for is not allowed, by their OPs Spec, to Hot Fuel.

I know for the longest time Z-Hills wasn't able to Hot Fuel because the Fire MArshall wouldn't allow it. Don't know if that is still the case.

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You do realize that rationale you're using is the same argument as to why skydiving should be banned, right? Seriously, read your posts and simply replace "hot refuelling" with "skydiving"!



You really need to read ALL of the posts, as I was not the one to coin that phrase. So, I'm sorry but I can't go back and change all of those posts. All apologies. But my response to you is the same as my response to Ron: "Contribute, or be quite" remember, this is Safety & Training Forums, not the Saturday Night Live show with Alec Baldwin. The topic is Refueling with the engines running [On a turbine aircraft,] not "Crack Wise" while you can Forums.
-Richard-
"You're Holding The Rope And I'm Taking The Fall"

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"Contribute, or be quite"


I don't know quite what you expect me to be.

Yes, I am quite amazing, aren't I?

I thought Alec Baldwin was quite amazing on SNL last week, plus he's quite an airline passenger, isn't he?

I think your last post quite clearly demonstrates that you didn't quite understand what I said.
It's all been said before, no sense repeating it here.

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