pms07 3 #26 December 13, 2011 QuoteQuoteClear & consice facts & video evidence have been introduced to you regarding this topic. Learn from it or ignore it, it's up to you. It's easy to see that what you believe is "between the ears" I don't care what the Navy does, Army or anyone else. I initially tried to say that IMHO it's a bad practice, and now I get BS like this. I'm out, try not to die. Just curious...how many skydivers have died from hot fueling turbine jump aircraft in the U.S, say in the last 50 years? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 622 #27 December 13, 2011 and the type of fuel in those incidents please. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dninness 4 #28 December 13, 2011 Wow. First, to address some of the earlier posts: - Its bad practice for the pilot to get out and hot gas his own plane without someone qualified to manipulate the controls in the cockpit, just in case. I think the FAA, the NTSB and your insurance company would frown on leaving a running aircraft with nobody at the controls, even if it was just to go take a leak. Brakes fail, aircraft jump chocks, props go from zero pitch to something else due to malfunction, etc. The risk of the aircraft doing something while nobody is minding the store are pretty high. - Hot gas is an acceptable aviation practice. I think if you were to query the NTSB or the FAA (or the Army Safety Center, for that matter), you would probably find there are more refueling accidents that occur while gassing an aircraft cold than when hot. - Refueling while people are on board is a total no-no, hot or not. 50 feet from the aircraft during refueling ops for all non-essential personnel. Even when cold-gassing the aircraft, we'd take people off and have them stand 50 ft away. I had a great conversation on the edge of the ramp at Kangnug AB with the Vice Chief of Staff of the Army while waiting for some ROKAF guys to finish fueling my helicopter once. That being said, hot gas can be relatively safe, and not shutting down the aircraft is definitely a "pro-maintenance" item, but not unsafe. BTW, rwieder, every link you posted basically refuted every statement you made (you did not post a link about static electricity, however, but I think we can all agree that static electricity and aircraft refueling ops are to be avoided at all costs..). I would be interested to hear, as would others I'm sure, your experience with S-76s blowing up on oil rigs. Please, enlighten us. Photos, video? An NTSB report, maybe?NIN D-19617, AFF-I '19 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rwieder 0 #29 December 13, 2011 QuoteStatic electricity, sufficient to cause combustion of fuel vapors, can occur by the free falling of fuel liquids into tanks, flowing through a pipe, filter or hose, by pouring from one container into another, or the splashing of fuel into a fueler or aircraft during loading and fueling / defueling operations. One serious source of static electricity is the pouring of AVGAS from or into plastic containers. The issue of static electricity and its associated hazard relating to fuel handling operations as an ignition source is covered in more detail in Sources of Ignition section in this Chapter. I beg to differ. You obviously didn't do enough research on all of the links on the web page.-Richard- "You're Holding The Rope And I'm Taking The Fall" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dninness 4 #30 December 13, 2011 QuoteQuoteStatic electricity, sufficient to cause combustion of fuel vapors, can occur by the free falling of fuel liquids into tanks, flowing through a pipe, filter or hose, by pouring from one container into another, or the splashing of fuel into a fueler or aircraft during loading and fueling / defueling operations. One serious source of static electricity is the pouring of AVGAS from or into plastic containers. The issue of static electricity and its associated hazard relating to fuel handling operations as an ignition source is covered in more detail in Sources of Ignition section in this Chapter. I beg to differ. You obviously didn't do enough research on all of the links on the web page. I'm sorry, I've read it all. As I stated "(you did not post a link about static electricity, however, but I think we can all agree that static electricity and aircraft refueling ops are to be avoided at all costs..)" I mean, no shit, static electricity and refueling ops don't mix. Got that. What part of that is not clear? I'm not saying that flowing fuel cannot create static electricity. I mean, come on, a 25,000lb cargo helicopter sitting at flight idle creates a shitload of static electricity just in the rotor system, never mind the JP-4 flowing into the tanks from a nozzle. But static electricity will exist with either hot or cold refueling ops. No news there. Hence the reason why you ground the aircraft to a static ground, the fuel truck to a static ground (preferably the same one), and the fuel nozzle to the aircraft (note: I've never seen civilian nozzles have grounding clips on them. The military ones had 1/4" plugs, like phono plugs, and a jack right next to the refueling receptacle to remind you.) Pretty easy. I am still curious, however, about your experience with an S-76 on an oil platform.NIN D-19617, AFF-I '19 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #31 December 13, 2011 QuoteNot a big deal if it is done correctly. I disagree. Hot fueling is ALWAYS a big deal and should be treated as such. Complacency kills.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rwieder 0 #32 December 13, 2011 QuoteI disagree. Hot fueling is ALWAYS a big deal and should be treated as such. Complacency kills. Alas! A voice of reason. Complacency hasn't killed that I know of because of Hot Fueling, but it may well happen (God Forbid) I have seen fires because of spilled fuel. I'm sure we're all aware of Murphy's Law?-Richard- "You're Holding The Rope And I'm Taking The Fall" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #33 December 13, 2011 QuoteQuoteI disagree. Hot fueling is ALWAYS a big deal and should be treated as such. Complacency kills. Alas! A voice of reason. Complacency hasn't killed that I know of because of Hot Fueling, but it may well happen (God Forbid) I have seen fires because of spilled fuel. I'm sure we're all aware of Murphy's Law? Fire, walking into a prop, falling off a wing, the guy holding the brakes while the pilot is taking a leak gets distracted and the plane starts to move causing all of the above . . . the plane turns and a wing bangs into the fuel truck slicing it open and spilling 500 gallons of Jet-A . . .quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #34 December 13, 2011 Quote- Refueling while people are on board is a total no-no, hot or not. 50 feet from the aircraft during refueling ops for all non-essential personnel. Even when cold-gassing the aircraft, we'd take people off and have them stand 50 ft away. I had a great conversation on the edge of the ramp at Kangnug AB with the Vice Chief of Staff of the Army while waiting for some ROKAF guys to finish fueling my helicopter once. Well, refueling with passengers on-board is a normal procedure even with commercial flight. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rwieder 0 #35 December 13, 2011 QuoteWell, refueling with passengers on-board is a normal procedure even with commercial flight. Sure, Commercial Aircraft refuel at the boarding gate. The jet engines are not even turned on at that point. The generator is producing electricity during this time. I'm a world traveler, have been for years, never have I seen any airline refuel the wing tanks with passengers onboard with the jet engines running.-Richard- "You're Holding The Rope And I'm Taking The Fall" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,394 #36 December 13, 2011 >Commercial Aircraft refuel at the boarding gate. The jet engines are not even turned >on at that point. Commercial airliners refuel with their APU's running - which are turboshaft engines about the same size and power rating as those on skydiving aircraft. I've never heard of any explosions due to that. BTW we once had to land in Maine to refuel due to headwinds while coming back from Europe. They landed, taxied to the ramp, refueled and took off again about 10 minutes later - without shutting down the engines. (British Airways) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #37 December 13, 2011 QuoteI disagree. Hot fueling is ALWAYS a big deal and should be treated as such. Complacency kills Please show me where I advcoated complacency. The fact is that hot fueling has been around a LONG time and it has a pretty good safety record. More people get hurt at DZ firepits each year than by hot fueling. More people get hurt cooking at the DZ than hot fueling. But again, please show where I advocated complacent behavior?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wildcard451 0 #38 December 13, 2011 Quote(note: I've never seen civilian nozzles have grounding clips on them. The military ones had 1/4" plugs, like phono plugs, and a jack right next to the refueling receptacle to remind you.) Pretty easy. We have one on our truck that mates with our twotter. Didn't realize this wasn't standard practice. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #39 December 13, 2011 QuoteHave been to a dropzone in UK, where I am not jumping often. Noticed that after a load, pilot came off from the aircraft, the engine still running, and he did refuel the plane. Thoughts on safety of such a practice of shortening the turnaround time between the loads and making more loads? Is this thread has anything to do with Safety and Training? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 622 #40 December 13, 2011 I would venture a no. It's an accepted practice and not every jumper is involved in the aircraft operations. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Linas120 0 #41 December 13, 2011 Quote Is this thread has anything to do with Safety and Training? Hmm, I would say, safety - yes, training - not so sure Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
totter 2 #42 December 13, 2011 Ah, the days I miss of hot fueling the nacelle tanks on a King Air. Standing on a shaky 6 foot ladder, 400C exhaust gases blowing on you and sucking them into your lungs, having to snake the fuel line and ladder under the plane to reach the opposite side. Hot fueling a Twin Otter, 10 inches from the LH Prop while filling the forward tank or having a gallon of Jet A spew back on you from back pressure. Ah, Good Time - good times. Climbing out on the wing of a Casa, or up between the engines (thru the hatch) on a Skyvan. Never did it, though, without someone sitting in the left seat. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Southern_Man 0 #43 December 13, 2011 Quote Quote Is this thread has anything to do with Safety and Training? Hmm, I would say, safety - yes, training - not so sure I would hope that if you are the one hot refueling there has been some training involved. No, not every jumper is involved in refueling but that is no different than swooping, crew, etc. If you as a jumper are going to be involved in any of these activities, get proper training. Maybe some places have dedicated fuelers who are not jumpers but that is not reflective of the places I have jumped."What if there were no hypothetical questions?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Linas120 0 #44 December 13, 2011 Quote I would hope that if you are the one hot refueling there has been some training involved. No, was never involved in that myself. Just observed such practice in a dropzone, where I am not jumping regularly. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #45 December 13, 2011 Quote Quote Is this thread has anything to do with Safety and Training? Hmm, I would say, safety - yes, training - not so sure Almost as interesting how to stay out of the reach of props..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #46 December 13, 2011 Hot-refueling is a routine procedure, provided that you follow a few guidelines: no passengers onboard, grounding cables, props at zero thrust, fire extinguishers standing by, etc. I have hot-refueled helicopters hundreds of times, many times on the pitching flight deck of a warship and even a few times with the helicopter hovering alongside the ship. I have also hot-refueled the wing tanks on a Pilatus Porter. ... and have observed Twin Otters hot-refueled dozens of times. However, I would flatly refuse to hot-refuel a King Air of Skyvan because those airplanes pose too great a risk of falling into spinning propellers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
-ftp- 0 #47 December 13, 2011 Quote You obviously didn't do enough research on all of the links on the web page. I don't agree or disagree with your thoughtsabout the issue, but you realize you are using wikipedia for your source right? The "wiki" that ANYONE can edit. Just saying, its not worth THAT much. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyper 0 #48 December 13, 2011 Quote I don't agree or disagree with your thoughtsabout the issue, but you realize you are using wikipedia for your source right? The "wiki" that ANYONE can edit. Just saying, its not worth THAT much. ftp, a bit off topic... it's proven that wikipedia is as reliable as encyclopaedia Britannica. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #49 December 13, 2011 QuoteQuoteI disagree. Hot fueling is ALWAYS a big deal and should be treated as such. Complacency kills Please show me where I advcoated complacency. The fact is that hot fueling has been around a LONG time and it has a pretty good safety record. More people get hurt at DZ firepits each year than by hot fueling. More people get hurt cooking at the DZ than hot fueling. But again, please show where I advocated complacent behavior? Your use of the words "Not a big deal" certainly implies it. Of course you're not "advocating" complacency, you're just spreading it by saying something which is deadly serious is "Not a big deal."quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckakers 370 #50 December 13, 2011 Quote I'd be uncomfortable boarding while a hot refueling was being done, but not just while the engines are running. Unless I'm reading your post incorrectly, I think you don't follow the lingo here. "Hot" refueling refers to fueling while the engines ARE running.Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
