HDV Random Tandem Observations

[PharmerPhil 0]

I have been jumping an HDV camera for several months now (HDR-A1U), but have just recently been shooting commercial tandem videos with it. Previously, I have used it for RW and non-skydiving shoots. The following are some observations, questions, conundrums regarding its use. I should point out that my previous tandem video camera was a Sony DV model TRV-38. There are certainly major differences between the two, and some are a little unsettling for my use. I should also mention that although I do a fair amount of NLE (FCP), I do my tandem editing using old linear equipment with my camera as the one and only feeder deck.

1. When I hit slow motion on my remote (LANC or wireless), the image on screen and on the output freezes for slightly more than a second before going into slow motion. Likewise, when I go from slow-mo to normal speed, the image on screen freezes for even more time before resuming normal speed. Previously, I did this regularly during my mix, and my older camera went quickly and smoothly from full-speed to slow speed. I am guessing that this is due to the intra-frame compression, and the fact that the camera needs to buffer and reference frames before and after the current frame before figuring what to output. Unfortunately, this makes for a much less pleasing transition using my older (stone-knives and bear-skins) editing techniques. Additionally, the slow speed is much slower than any of my Mini-DV cameras (TRV-900, TRV-38, and PC-1).

2. The HDV camera takes varying times to go from standby to record. That is, sometimes it is fairly quick, and others it it painfully slow. This seems to be based on how long the camera has been in standby mode (but not always), and can be very frustrating. This weekend I missed a tandem landing because the camera took too long to start back up in record mode. In a non-linear-editing scenario, this shouldn't be a problem, because you can just let the camera roll (and, in fact, it is easier to have some pre-roll and post-roll footage). However, when I "shoot to edit" for my linear editing system, this would compromise my editing ability.

3. When you fast-forward or rewind while in playback mode (shuttling), you get a very blurry image out of the camera. This is okay (and understandable), but when you return to play, the video jumps to a point that is a few seconds different from the preview (earlier in rewind, later in FF). This is a pain when you want to rewind the freefall portion of a tandem quickly, and have it go right to the exit frame. All my previous DV cameras stopped or played right at the point I saw on screen when I returned to play.

4. This last observation (gripe?) may have nothing to do with the HDV format, but the new HDV-A1U seems to hunt much longer when in auto-focus mode. I typically use auto-focus for everything except freefall footage (I set manual focus right before exiting, and turn it back off right after landing). Several times, either in the plane or zooming in on a tandem under canopy, the camera has taken way too long to find the correct focus. So much so that I have missed some good footage on a few tandems. This problem seems to be most acute either in low light (on the plane), or at long distances (i.e., shooting a tandem under canopy from a distance). I am using a new lens for this cam (Raynox HD-5050PRO). I haven't had a chance to put my older lens on this camera to see if this makes a difference, but I seem to remember this problem on some non-skydiving shoots without a WA lens.

Sorry for the long and rambling post, but I am hoping some other videographers can either learn from this before making the switch to HDV, or that some can tell me their experiences and shed some light on these problems. I am very curious if any one else (particularly with an HC7 or HC5) has experienced these same problems and what their work-arounds or fixes were. I don't really want to go to non-linear editing for tandems. Pay for tandem videos hasn't gone up enough to justify the additional time, and I am often either on a back-to-back, or have one Super Otter load's worth of time to do an edit, finalize the disk, deliver it, and get my ground footage for the next tandem.

[damonsteele 0]

I use the HC7 and have noticed everything that you have stated. I don't know if it has to do with HDV or the way Sony is designing these new cameras.

Just thought I would let you know that you are not alone.

BTW, I don't edit vids during the jump day anymore. Too much to do in such little time. I mail them out now by default.

[vdschoor 0]

I saw the same with my HC-1. The owner of the video concession told me not to shoot with it anymore (I only had to use it once, when I forgot my TRV17)

I dont use the HC-1 for tandem videos, because we dont have a HD-DVD or Blu-ray burner yet.. so why use my nice HD camera if my TRV-17 will do the job just fine..

I only use my HD camera for non tandem jumps..

[PharmerPhil 0]

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I only use my HD camera for non tandem jumps.

Yeah, that would be nice. But my previous camera was wearing out anyway, and I didn't think it made sense to buy a new camera that wasn't HD (I know, HDV really). That's why I was curious about the HC5 or HC7 (your HC1 is the same internally as my A1U). But it may just be an HDV thing.

[vdschoor 0]

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***.... But it may just be an HDV thing.

That is exactly it.. HDV is stored on the tape in a compressed format and the camera has to uncompress it to play it...

For good info on this that I found that explains HDV a bit: http://www.highdef.com/library/what_is_hdv.htm

[DSE 3]

Compression isn't the direct cause of this, GOP is related, but no decompression/compression is responsible.
This'll be worse if you're using old/previously used tape.
when you hit record, if more than 5 minutes have happened since the last time you hit record, several things happen;
~Last frame is decoded to observe timecode
~last header file is read to see where in the GOP structure the frame sequence was (I/B/P)
~Check for break in structure and/or timecode.

Get used to this when dealing with GOP formats, which is essentially everything in the future. You *can* enable quick record in some camcorders, but I've found that this can create problems at capture, depending on the NLE system used.

[Laszloimage 0]

The AF is based on contrast. If the light is to low there isn't too much contarst just dark spots in the picture so AF becomes more difficult. It also occures when you try to AF to a long distance towards brighter back ground which becomes the dominant light in your picture with out to much contrast. If the subject fills out the screen (and lit properly) and the camera doesn't shake too much the AF will be achived faster.
HD vs SD AF more difficult due to the lot higher res.
Higher definition has less tolarance of "softness" it requires a lot more accurate AF to get a sharp image.
So it takes a bit longer to the camera's "computer" to figure it out while it receives1080 lines vs 480 (530 in PAL) 30 (25 in PAL) times in a second
If I said anything stupid guys please correct me.
-Laszlo-

[JGarcia 0]

I have the same gripes with my HC3. Yeah, it's HD, and the picture looks incredible, but editing with it SUCKS if you're used to shooting and editing right on the camera as your DVD records linearly.


--Jairo

Low Profile, snag free helmet mount for your Sony X3000 action cam!

[guscabana 0]

Hi Phil,
I been shooting HDV since 2005, and because of all what you pointed I only use it for good stuff, thinking in the future, but for everyday jumps, watching it in a normal TV at the DZ, downloading to dvd, I much prefer my PC1000, the slowenes of hdv is really a pain for me! but for sure its make me use all my cams in 16:9, from the very first jump with the HC1 I fell in love with the widescreen, is like I been blind of one eye, and now uncover the other...
Here, when we are busy we also have a Super Otter load to download the tandem jump in a dvd (edited in camara of course), burn the pictures in a cd with a stand alone recorder, AND pack!!!
Blue ones,
Gustavo

[DSE 3]

Why don't you downconvert to DV in the camera, then you're dealing with the higher quality image, but have the workspeed of DV?

[guscabana 0]

Sometimes, I used the hc1 to shoot tandems and set it in dv recording, but then, why use a bigger an expensier camera, if I can use a smaller and cheaper one, with almost the same quality?
Im getting to the point with my tired neck and body, to trying to reduce the weight and size as much as I can... we skydivers try to ignore how bad we treat our bodies, specially during openings and hard landings, but years and thousand of jumps just remind me it every day...

[DSE 3]

My point is; you can shoot HDV, and output as DV. The A1 has an HDV-DV downconvert built in. The HDV originated footage is still better at downconvert than any DV camcorder you might fly.
As to the costs and wear/tear on gear...hell, that's a whole 'nother story.

[Stumpy 256]

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My point is; you can shoot HDV, and output as DV. The A1 has an HDV-DV downconvert built in. The HDV originated footage is still better at downconvert than any DV camcorder you might fly.

I'm curious - why?
Edited to add for clarity - this seems counter intuitive - DV has its set limitations - number of lines etc. Is it just that the optics and electronics on the new ones are just better or is it that there is a fundamental difference?

Never try to eat more than you can lift

[PharmerPhil 0]

That is what I was doing (down converting to DV in camera). But I still edit tandem videos using linear equipment, and all the above-mentioned gripes still apply while down-converting (i.e. slow-mo, rewind jumps, etc.).

I have since gone back to my old TRV-38 for tandems. It is a pretty good camera, and I can always put the HDR on when I'm videoing big-ways, RW, or anything else. The TRV image isn't quite as good as the HDR, but the finished product (post-edit) is better due to smoother editing, no missed shots, etc. (Unfortunately, the weight is about the same.) It is just too bad that HDV isn't currently compatible with my current work-flow.

[DSE 3]

Quote

Quote

My point is; you can shoot HDV, and output as DV. The A1 has an HDV-DV downconvert built in. The HDV originated footage is still better at downconvert than any DV camcorder you might fly.

I'm curious - why?
Edited to add for clarity - this seems counter intuitive - DV has its set limitations - number of lines etc. Is it just that the optics and electronics on the new ones are just better or is it that there is a fundamental difference?

One way to answer your question would be to ask; "Why do major releases look better than anything you shoot and deliver on DVD, when they're both delivered on DVD?"
It's not about the delivery format, it's about the source format. Just like 35mm source footage is superior when transcoded/compressed to DVD, HDV also is superior when transcoded/compressed to DV. Higher resolution at the source makes for a better delivery whether it's DV or mpeg/DVD

[Laszloimage 0]

Phil,
I've been editing some videos for someone else using the HC-3 and my linear system. Of course I noticed the same exact issue when the video was recorded in HDV format. But when the footage was recorded in regular DV format (changed i n the menu) the HC-3 workt just like any other SONY Mini DV cam. But the quality was unbelievable. At normal day light the image from the HC-3's CMOS sensor was competing with my VX-2000's 3CCD!
...I don't know about the A1U but I would try use it in regular DV mode for tandems if you want to maitain the good old linear work flow.
-Laszlo-

[airon11 0]

i use sony hc5 and i have noticed same things...
i think it's due to the hdv format limits, but isn't really good to see slow motion with still images before and after..
i just decided to use 16:9 dv quality for tandems to linear edit videos, and use hdv quality for other videos...just to have it in high quality when acquired on computer...
because anyway if you don't have a hd tv, you always see it converted in dv during play, on the fly...

anyway registering in dv format with my hc5 give really good shots, much better that with other dv sony cameras...such as pc1000 pc 107...