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riggerrob

Riggers: what will you not repack

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Riggers: what type of gear will you not repack?

For example, I was damned glad when my boss finally put his foot down and banned round reserves from Pitt Meadows. It has something to do with the Fraser River flowing past our DZ.

I have never trusted non-diapered round canopies and would prefer that all rounds from the acid mesh era rot in some else's closet.

I also do not have enough experience with Sentinel AADs to know which way is up.

And as for all those military surplus POS's that Dave DeWolf had me pack for my Senior Rigger test, I laugh them out of my loft these days.
Hah!

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I stuck this on the other thread, but I won't pack anything with a "catapult" (read secondary) pilot chute, I'm not certifying something as airworthy that probably never was in the first place (duck......)

Sid
www.sidsrigging.com
Pete Draper,

Just because my life plan is written on the back of a Hooter's Napkin, it's still a life plan.... right?

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I'm not certifying something as airworthy that probably never was in the first place (duck......)



Wow, bold statement... Just out of curiosity, on how many TSO certification teams have you worked?


"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

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I stuck this on the other thread, but I won't pack anything with a "catapult" (read secondary) pilot chute, I'm not certifying something as airworthy that probably never was in the first place (duck......)



Well Sid, interesting how I had alot of respect for your rant and reviews...but now with this back stab at the reflex guys with nothing to back it up...you've just lost a few notches in my book.

Marc
otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman....

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I stuck this on the other thread, but I won't pack anything with a "catapult" (read secondary) pilot chute, I'm not certifying something as airworthy that probably never was in the first place (duck......)



Well Sid, interesting how I had alot of respect for your rant and reviews...but now with this back stab at the reflex guys with nothing to back it up...you've just lost a few notches in my book.



>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Play nice children.

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Just a question ... How many round reserves did you have to pack anyway ?
ralu



>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I packed about 20 round reserves to earn my Canadian Rigger A Certificate, then I repacked another 100 round reserves before applying for my FAA Senior Rigger Certificate. Dave DeWolf tested me on three (back, seat and chest) military surplus antique parachutes that he dragged out of his attic.
Since then I have packed about 1,000 round parachutes, mostly for pilot emergency parachutes. That was when I worked for Butler and Para-Phernalia.
My boss recently banned round reserves from Pitt Meadows ... something about the Fraser River flowing past the airport.

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About half my small customer base is round canopies, on pilot's backs (or butts). I like packing rounds. You get to stand up, they usually close easier (i.e. I'm not sweating when I finish), there less liability (chance they will be used), there's usually less maintenance needed, ....
I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

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I stuck this on the other thread, but I won't pack anything with a "catapult" (read secondary) pilot chute, I'm not certifying something as airworthy that probably never was in the first place (duck......)



Well Sid, interesting how I had alot of respect for your rant and reviews...but now with this back stab at the reflex guys with nothing to back it up...you've just lost a few notches in my book.



>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Play nice children.



I got your back, Sid.

My three main rigging mentors will not pack Reflexes with Catapults either. I obviously cannot name names here, but PM me if you want more info. All three are prominent, highly regarded riggers - two are Masters who work for major container manufacturers (but have extensive experience with all types of systems) and one is a quite prominent DPRE. One of them won't pack Reflexes at all, though I don't understand his reasoning on this. Also a lot of garden-variety senior riggers I have met (I would say most) will not pack a Reflex with a catapult.

The one thing I REFUSE to pack is a Rapid Transit rig with the handles reversed. Evidently they got the bright idea at some point to put the cutaway on the left and reserve R/C on the right. I've actually seen one of these, and refused to work on it -- imagine if it was loaned to a friend!!!

We do repack many rounds with mesh from the acid era after pH and tensile tests, mostly for pilots. Sport rigs with rounds (very few,) only if they have a full-stow diaper. Even then, we try to talk them into getting a ram air reserve.

We have one pilot customer with a 24' round mf by Mills Manufacturing that we repack - DOM 1964. The canopy is beautiful and pristine, never used and in storage for some years, and our favorite DPRE was on hand for a boogie the first time we saw it. and gave it the green light. It's in better shape than many rounds made in the 80s and 90s.

We absolutely love Racers and are a Racer-friendly loft, but we won't pack Safety Fliers - after talking with the manufacturers, who recommend relegating them to car-cover status. We still do pack a lot of original Swifts, and occasionally get saves on them still -- sometimes even stand-up landings if you can believe that!!
Alpha Mike Foxtrot,
JHL

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Don't forget Reflexs and to give some sort of plausible explanation of why (if there is one).

Thanks Rob!



Ok I am not a rigger, but I am a rigger apprentice, with a lot of availability of knowledge about gear, to add I am one of those annoying guys that ask a lot of questions, and questions the questions. But anyway back to the question, My rigger trainer, started me out on a reflex, and Damn, that is the easiest rig I have packed, anyone that charges more to pack a reflex is a crook. I love to pack Vector3's just because of the self gratitude you get when you make it look good. The Reflex is easy to close and you dont have to fight with it as much to make it look pretty. As far as the catapult, I have fought enough with a very popular Dz.com member about this (Who hasn't shown his face in this side of the discussion yet) about the catapult, There is a reason why no one uses it, if it was a good system it would be used, ie the 3 ring vs Capewell.

Other than that Racers: They invited me to train me to pack racers anytime and offer their knowledge, which I will take up. So I think of them as a good company. And from the people I talk to at home (a lot of racer rigger's) they like to pack them the best.

But still I Love my V3... But any rigger should be able to pack the rig given to him, or in return refuse to attempt it.


Ray
Small and fast what every girl dreams of!

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What is the beef about Reflexes and catapults?

I worked with Micky Cottle before he started Fliteline and I heard all of the problems he went through. However I still do not understand why some people dislike Reflexes.

Oh and let's limit this discussion to people who have FIRST HAND knowledge of Reflex failures.

Also, we will not sink into rehashing the "2000 Grommet madness" because almost all manufacturers had loose grommet problems, even if it took a few years for their grommets to loosen off.

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There is a reason why no one uses it, if it was a good system it would be used, ie the 3 ring vs Capewell.



I'm not sure where you get your information from, but I suggest you get out of your little region of the States and see what's going on in other areas of the country. There are a ton or Reflex rigs on the West Coast, and it's uncommon to see one without a Catapult.

When Mick was designing the secondary res. pilot chute system it was looked down upon by a couple of prominent gear Mfgs.. Why? Because they had tried a similar system and couldn't make it work. Sorry, but just because someone can't figure out a system, doesn't mean it can't be figured out.

There are plus sides and minus sides to every argument or design, but I would suggest you do a bit more research than two or three regionally located individuals before you make statements like the ones you've made here. Everyone knows the country has regions that have similar views on gear likes and dislikes...that doesn't make them right or wrong, but you need to look at things as a whole, not just take what your region believes as gospel.

For what it's worth, I've got no real heartburn about packing a rig with or without a Catapult. I think the system is sound and has proven itself not only in testing, but in 2 live saves that I know about first hand. As for the regular argument about the jumper in Cross Keys that snagged the Catapult on her malfunctioning main...what can I say, if you pull the handles in the wrong order, you're odds go into the toilet rather quickly.

See the world, meet new people, hear new ideas...you're little corner of the world isn't all there is to the sport.


"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

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As far as the catapult, I have fought enough with a very popular Dz.com member about this (Who hasn't shown his face in this side of the discussion yet) about the catapult, There is a reason why no one uses it, if it was a good system it would be used, ie the 3 ring vs Capewell.



What, I don't count? :)
My next rig won't be a reflex, and it won't be pink either. It's not so much that I don't like the reflex or I don't trust it. It's that it can be a pain in the ass to own because some riggers don't pack it and others don't know how to pack it well. I've heard PLENTY of people say they don't like the catapult but none of them seem to be able to come up with a good reason. Maybe that's because the experts are afraid to badmouth their competition. Well guys, the reflex isn't made anymore. Let's hear it!

Dave

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> There is a reason why no one uses it, if it was a good system it
>would be used, ie the 3 ring vs Capewell.

So the Skyhook is a bad system because only RW uses it? And external reserve pilot chutes are a bad idea because only two manufacturers use them? I disagree that popularity is a strong indicator of function.

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You know I agrree with skymedic. Sniping a product deserves an explaination. Flightline applied for and recived a TSO for their efforts. The managed to convince the governing body (FAA) the the device functioned properly, and was built to specific standards. I happen to think it works well. I welcome people to disagree with that opinion, however I they should be willing to explain themselves.
----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

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Well guys, the reflex isn't made anymore.


Not entirely true. While the Tridents are not Reflexs, some of the same ideas are probably incorporated. PROBABLY. I do not know for sure, but I am interested.
Trident
Negative talk about the catapult is a new one to me. I've had a Reflex for 5 years and have never had a problem with it. I think people not in So. Cal. are relatively unfamiliar with them and choose to avoid them as a result.

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Not entirely true. While the Tridents are not Reflexs, some of the same ideas are probably incorporated. PROBABLY. I do not know for sure, but I am interested.



Just to clear this up. There is no rig called the TRIDENT, there is a rig series called VIPER made by Trident H&C, Inc. The Viper line of rigs is a totally redesigned rig and holds the best parts from ALL rigs on the market. We took special care to research and develop ideas that work, and work well. I would hesitate to say that the Viper, in any of it's forms, is "like" anything else, but they do share commonalities that may seem obvious with other rigs. But looks can be deceiving...;)

Ask yourself this: With all the good technology out there, why hasn't someone put it all together?
The answer: It costs money to retool and redesign an existing product, lots of money.
It doesn't when you build it from the ground up...which is where Trident H&C comes in.

I think the link was already posted, but if anyone has any specific questions not answered by the website about the VIPER series (which we've chosen not to release nationally at this time), please feel free to PM me.


"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

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Y'know "sid" if you're going level an acusation at someome be an adult and back it up with some facts.

If I said " I heard that "sid" packed a couple of totals on some reserves he was working on" and published it in an open forum without any supporting data, my credibility not to mention my professional demenour would be in serious question.

In fact the Catapult is certified and has had several saves and no reported fatalities. The fatality in NJ (Denise Daddio) was the result of an out of sequence main deployment that ended with a bag lock. The main was never jettisoned prior to the reserve deployment resulting in a main/ reserve entanglement.

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I have repacked enough Security 150, 250 and 350 Safety-Chute PEPs to thoroughly dislike them.
As for the 350s with the SACs, I have resewn the risers on a bunch of them so I could install Preserves and similar light weight canopies.
It is not like I have not learned any tricks for repacking Securities. Tricks like only using 350-style closing loops and a third pull-up cord to install the spring. Heck I wrote a whole magazine article on the subject, but Sue Clifton (Skydiving Magazine) never published it, probably because it was too long.
Their only saving grace is the youngest Security 350 is 19 years old and we will soon have another excuse not to repack them.

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