Shooting CRW Video

[waltappel 1]

I was doing it this last weekend after being unable to find any discussion on it here. Dayum!!!!!!!!!

After screwing it up royally on 4 jumps I finally started to get it dialed in. I was using a TRV-900 (yes I know it's obsolete!), normal lens, 1/4 zoom and was getting some ok video finally.

I had made a strap that was long enough to hook to my front riser dive loops and route under my feet so I could front riser with my feet and that worked ok, but I found it way too slow to hook it up and start using.

And *damn* was I wishing I had a smaller canopy while trying to shoot the 8-way and larger jumps!!!!!

Got any good tips?

Walt

[ffejdraga 0]

Hey Walt,

A couple of years ago, i did CRW video for the New England record, a 25way. I was also going up all weekend videoing 8 ways and whatever. I was jumping a xaos 21 120, loaded at 2.1. I had all the range I needed, although at first I definitely was riding brakes a lot. No front risers for me!

You have to rememebr that if you are zoomed in, it will magnify all your head movements, so the real key is to move your head as minimally as possible. Also, key to have a good sight for it. That being said, I was shooting pretty close, because I wanted to get some more unique shots.

I have attached 2 of them to show you. These were scanned from slides, and then way dumbed down so I could upload them. It was a 16mm full frame fisheye lens on a 35mm camrea. I was closer than it appears.
you can practice on the ground by zooming your camera in, and getting someone to stand far enough away. See how big they are in the frame, and take note of how far you are away. As the formations get bigger, move back proportionately.

Keep at it.
jeff D-16906

[waltappel 1]

Beautiful shots!!!!!!

Did you find your canopy's forward speed to be a problem, i.e., did you have problems not outrunning the formation?

Walt

[ffejdraga 0]

Thanks!

there were times when I wondered if that would happen. I fixed that by a combination of more brakes, and then aggressively using the rears to sort of stall out then get back in. It was a litle crazy of a canopy ride, and my arms were dead at the end of it all.

But, all worth it. One of the best visuals for that trip was we were using an Otter and a 182 to haul everyone. 25 people, plus 2 vids. I got to be in the cessna, and we flew past the almost built thing a couple hundred feet above it. It was SO SWEET seeing that pass by under the airplane, and then to hop out and fly with it was excellent!

Good times!

jeff D-16906

[AndyMan 7]

The flipside is that I chased a 3way a while ago (picture here: http://www.skydiveradio.com/pic_of_week/POTW5.jpg). I was jumping a borrowed Saber2 190, and even with that big canopy had serious trouble staying with them. I spent the whole dive alternating between rear risers and brakes. By the time we landed I was exhausted.

I'm planning on going up with that same group again, but I'll get something even bigger than a 190, or maybe try a 7-cell instead of a 9.

I couldn't imagine doing that jump with my Sam 136, never mind anything smaller.

I guess the lesson here is that different formations, at different wingloadings - fly differently. I guess that would be pretty obvious, I guess...

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[waltappel 1]

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The flipside is that I chased a 3way a while ago (picture here: http://www.skydiveradio.com/pic_of_week/POTW5.jpg). I was jumping a borrowed Saber2 190, and even with that big canopy had serious trouble staying with them. I spent the whole dive alternating between rear risers and brakes. By the time we landed I was exhausted.

I'm planning on going up with that same group again, but I'll get something even bigger than a 190, or maybe try a 7-cell instead of a 9.

I couldn't imagine doing that jump with my Sam 136, never mind anything smaller.

I guess the lesson here is that different formations, at different wingloadings - fly differently. I guess that would be pretty obvious, I guess...

_Am

What a beautiful shot!!!!

I jump a Triathlon 175 and did ok staying with a three stack (actually, two three stacks next to each other!) but staying down with the larger formations seemed impossible.

Walt

[Gadget 0]

You could try warping the canopy.
pull frontriser and opposite steeringtoggle. Canopy loses forwardspeed and sinks

If people from Poland are called Poles, why aren't people from Holland called Holes???
My logbook

[waltappel 1]

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You could try warping the canopy.
pull frontriser and opposite steeringtoggle. Canopy loses forwardspeed and sinks

I did try that. It's a GREAT technique I recently learned. Warping didn't give me nearly as much sink rate as I needed, unfortunately. Those larger formations have a seriously high rate of descent!!!!

Walt

[CaTo 0]

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Those larger formations have a seriously high rate of descent!!!!

that really depends on what the formation looks like: a normal 4-way will decent almost as normal as one flying canopy.

It is my opinion that the best canopy you can fly is of the same type and wingload of the canopies used in the formation. Use some frontrisers to get lower and closer, and steering line input if you end up too fast or want to go up. Also, the burble of the formation can be a good place to be in order to stay with it....
For the video footage it is best to keep a straight line as much as possible, so without doing too much of sashays

For still pictures, you can have multiple angles and places to be. Sometimes you want to have that complete formation, but sometimes you want to make a 'different' picture, inside the formation.
I added two examples below.

Furthermore: get some CRW practice yourself! it will help you a great deal in making better footage and unusual shots.

Caren

[waltappel 1]

Thanks (and beautiful shots, BTW!).

I'm new to CRW (12-15 jumps) and am working on getting some skills and I think you have a really good point about wingloading. At some point I'm going to get a Lightning.

I can do ok staying with a 4-way, but an 8-way biplane diamond is a whole 'nother animal. For the larger formations I'm thinking that unless I get a smaller canopy (I jump a Triathlon 175 loaded at about 1.17), I'm going to need to do a longer delay so I can be in a good position to stay with the formation as the sink rate increases.

Walt

[faulknerwn 36]

Part of it too was the pilot tho - Cheryl's formations were nowhere near as sinky as Dave's. Every dock I did on Dave's formations had me docking on front risers. Even on the biplane-diamond when I docked the 2-stack (and 2-stacks sink more than a single canopy) I docked on full front risers to stay with it. Most bigger formations don't sink that much tho..

A Tri 150 would defintely help yah...

[DJL 232]

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I did try that. It's a GREAT technique I recently learned. Warping didn't give me nearly as much sink rate as I needed, unfortunately. Those larger formations have a seriously high rate of descent!!!!

Your Tri is going to be faster than the Lightnings and it sounds like you load it pretter light too. I shoot for a 4-way team and use my lightning loaded the same as the team. I still outfly them, especially for rotations, so I warp the canopy to the point that it's barely flying. I find it easier to warp my L than my Tri-Hybrid. I also use their burble to slow me down. I've found that I need to load the canopy just to the point that I need to use rear risers to stay on level flight with no docks in the formation. This way when they're sinking I can use brakes to slow the canopy and then when they're REALLY sinking I'm just getting into the range for warping the canopy. I do occassionally have to warp the hell out of it and at that time there isn't a lot of material flying.

I wouldn't mess with a strap on the front risers for competition jumping. I have to exit last and be in position for the first point. This doesn't leave a lot of time for rigging.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[waltappel 1]

Thanks for the great advice. No doubt I need to be flying a smaller canopy. I agree about the rigging, there isn't a lot of time for it. Looks like I'd better start looking for a Lightning. What is your loading?

Walt

[stuntquest 0]

Hey,
I jump with a 4 way and a 2 way team in Australia and I find that my smaller Lightning 126 is the best for both. The 4 way roto's sink once together and there for you need to keep up. Having trim tabs is a help here as you can set and forget (until landing that is). Trim tabs are also good when jumping from 14k as that is a long time to be on risers. When filming 2 way I dont use the trim tabs. These formations change direction and speed all the time so i just go with the flow.

http://www.skydiveradio.com/pic_of_week/POTW18.jpg

I have never been a fan of jumping my free fall canopy for filming CReW as I hate that side to side look when you find the formations are going slow and floating. Also the opening time is longer and the guys pay for my time not me struggling to get back up/waiting for them to sink down. But on the upside, the landings are nicer.

With 4 way i use a .5 lens and sit in a spot where even a blind JUDGE can see the grips (judges need all the help they can get) and with the 2 way I take the wide angle off. There are some CReW pictures on my web page if you want to look www.stuntquest.com

Rob

Rob
Don't let your perceived ability override your actual ability
www.vortextv.com.au

[waltappel 1]

"Rob Douthat© CRW_0186 .jpg " is a SWEET wrap shot!!!!

this pic rocks too!!!!

There really are some beautiful shots on your website. The BASE should looks really spooky.

Thanks for the great info! BTW, what is the loading on your Lightning 126?

Walt

[StefB 0]

Hi,

i did some 4 CRW training video last week and these are my experiences from that week

- jump a canopy one size smaller than the team helps a lot with fast sinking stacks. My team jumps 160 size Lightnings and i use a 143. But the inceased sinkrate is not too much be stay some seconds with a solo base and/or base/pin.

- Video normal lens is much better than wide angle lens. With wide angle lens you will interfere with the jumpers in rotation moves or the team is too far away in the video picture. When you are close and the top canopy and/or the lowest jumper is not visible with normal lens - that's not very critical.

- Foto lens 28mm (see picture links of shots with Ricoh Caplio GX8) or 35 mm is good to get "whole" formation shots, even when video is too close(compared to 24x36 format)


http://www.stefb.de/fsvsaar/20060507/picture-0028.jpg

[url]http://www.stefb.de/fsvsaar/20060507/picture-0007.jpg[/urL]

- Stalling the canopy for some seconds can be a usefull technique to go behind and low quickly when you are too high and too close behind the formation (typically the stack problem).

CRW is fun!
Stefan

[waltappel 1]

Nice-thankyou!!!!

Walt

[klingeme 0]

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I did try that. It's a GREAT technique I recently learned. Warping didn't give me nearly as much sink rate as I needed, unfortunately. Those larger formations have a seriously high rate of descent!!!!

Walt

Walt,
You need to be WAY into the Warp before it REALLY works. It's pretty scarry the first few times, but I could sink my Stilletto 120 while filming an 8 stack which falls right out of the sky. just get deeper into the warp.

Mark Klingelhoefer

[waltappel 1]

Quote

Quote

I did try that. It's a GREAT technique I recently learned. Warping didn't give me nearly as much sink rate as I needed, unfortunately. Those larger formations have a seriously high rate of descent!!!!

Walt

Walt,
You need to be WAY into the Warp before it REALLY works. It's pretty scarry the first few times, but I could sink my Stilletto 120 while filming an 8 stack which falls right out of the sky. just get deeper into the warp.

Mark Klingelhoefer

I'll try that--thankyou!!!!!!

Walt

[dragon2 0]

Staying in the burble is the easiest way to stay with a 4way stack, I could usually even keep up with a team flying at a wingload of 2 when I was jumping 1.3 although that was pretty hard and not advisable LOL. If you don't jump a wideangle you can't stay in the burble! Just get close, you shouldn't interfere with rotations, or if you do, the jumpers are doing something weird like rotating over the back

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[StefB 0]

OK with that. Riding the burble is a valuable tool in order to stay with fast sinking formations.

But... i'm much more comfortable to use a normal lens and have more space between formation and me. Our formation is 4way sequential competition, therefore another aspect is emergency handling. In case of a hard dock/wrap (knock on wood), those twirly canopys come fast...

I think when flying that close with a wide lens, my team members have to watch/respect the videots (my) space between their moves and that's not what we/i want. At least not with our current experience level (<100 team jumps) ;-)

Stefan

[CaTo 0]

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But... i'm much more comfortable to use a normal lens and have more space between formation and me. Our formation is 4way sequential competition, therefore another aspect is emergency handling. In case of a hard dock/wrap (knock on wood), those twirly canopys come fast...

I think when flying that close with a wide lens, my team members have to watch/respect the videots (my) space between their moves and that's not what we/i want. At least not with our current experience level (<100 team jumps) ;-)

Rule nr-1: get some CW experience yourself, learn to fligh and learn to anticipate. It's my own experience that being close by gives not only nicer pictures, but also gives me more room to anticipate: although that sounds maybe strange. But if the formation has a quick move to the right or left, you'll stay close... while if you are already far away, you will endup so far behind that it can be hard to catch up...
just my 2-cents.

Caren

[DJL 232]

I used the same lens I use with tandems, a 0.5, and my framing get four canopies and leaves enough room for a lazy rotation. There's already enough shake just from bumping along the burble, I wouldn't want to add any more because of a more narrow frame.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[parachutist 1]

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Got any good tips?

As far as safety is concerned I believe the camera person has it pretty easy when filming CRW if they follow some basic guidelines.

How to exit the aircraft without worrying about an off-heading opening running you into another jumper? My favorite method is to exit first: I take rear float outside the plane. The pilot of the CRW formation will then give a visible + audible "ok... ready... set... go" count. I let go of the plane on 'set' and deploy almost immediately (with enough pause to make sure my pilot chute doesn't get thrown over tail of aircraft). The pilot of the formation exits on 'go' and gives approx 3 second delay, then deploys. If you have off-heading opening then you're going away from everyone else and worst consequence is video quality suffers because the subject is small in the frame. If the pilot of the formation has off-heading opening then he could be coming your direction, but since he gave a 3 second delay he's well below you and clear of you. What if you have a snivelly opening and the pilot of the formation has a 180 off heading opening? Wouldn't this put you in his colliison path? It's possible but very unlikely because as soon as you throw out your pilot chute you already have drag. That drag slows both your descent and your forward speed. Your descent and forward speed get slowed down even more when the canopy is out, even if it's snivelling. Meanwhile the CRW pilot was giving his 3 second delay and travelling further away and further below you. This distance gives you and the other guy enough time to deal with the situation.... same benefit that you get from tracking after an RW dive.

Typical position for a CRW videographer is filming from the rear. When you're behind the formation keep your altitude at or above the middle of the formation. This gives you time to react if a wrap occurs. Wraps are wings that aren't flying very well, with a lot of weight suspended under them, so they descend pretty fast. If you're concerned about getting hit then you can apply some brakes and add more vertical separation, but generally they'll be far below you quickly. A common area of danger during a wrap is when chasing a wrap. The camera guy wants video of the wrap so he'll spiral down filming it. At the same time one or more CRW dogs who weren't in the mess will also be spiraling down to chase freebags or trying to help. This can lead to a canopy collision while spiraling, which for obvious reasons would be very bad.
Generally the videographer stays behind the formation, but for specialty photo/video angles from the front or sides, the camera just needs to stay up near same level as the top of the formation. If you were to fly in front of the formation anywhere lower than the top, then you'd create a burble for the formation and you'd get lots of cursing after landing.
Don't dock on the formation, especially while first learning to shoot CRW. Some seasoned CRW videographers have been known to dock on the bottom of a large diamond formation, then turn 180 under therir canopy, look up at everyone in the formation and get some great photos. These guys are very experienced and they carefully choose to do this only with the most stable formations. Even in the best conditions this can be a dangerous maneuver.

What's the right gear?
Canopy: Easiest is to use the same canopy as those in the formation. If they're doing 2-way, sequential, or diamond formations then use the same wing loading. If they're doing stacks then loading a bit heavier would be good because they'll sink fast. Why not use a 9-cell for filming? Because you'll likely spend the whole dive zig-zagging back and forth to keep the canopy behind the formation and to stay down with the formation (7-cell CRW canopies are generally slower and sinkier than 9-cell freefall canopies). So when you review the video you'll be dead tired from all the riser/toggle work and the audience will get seasick from all the zig-zagging.
- camera & camera helmet: Helmet can be same as used for freefall. When starting out I suggest keeping it simple by using a small light video camera... learn to handle the harder-opening CRW canopies, then proceed from there and add a still camera if you choose. No wide angle lense. There's no need for it, especially when first starting out filming CRW. Using the stock lense on a vid camera gives you plenty of distance from the formation.
- Aircraft: Slower air speed generally means softer openings so cameras don't feel as heavy on the neck. Some good aircraft for filming CRW Twin Otter, Cessna, PAC, Porter. Some aircraft that don't generally provide soft openings: CASA, King Air, jets

Keeping these guidelines in mind can help everyone have a great time during and after the dive.

Chris

[DJL 232]

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It is my opinion that the best canopy you can fly is of the same type and wingload of the canopies used in the formation. Use some frontrisers to get lower and closer, and steering line input if you end up too fast or want to go up. Also, the burble of the formation can be a good place to be in order to stay with it....

Wanted to add my 2C. I flew 4-way vid and competed in 8-way on Dawg Catchers. Your adice on canopy type and WL is sound. What I don't agree with is that if you're in the burble then you're probably too high to see the points. You need to be under the bottom canopy so you can get their grips, otherwise you'll have a bust - especially on Rotations. For keeping proximity I used front risers to get down and then slammed the rears to kill my speed. It didn't cause any wobble on the vid. I then warped to maintain my position. The prerequisit to all of this was using a matching canopy/load that flew how the formation would fly. For some this could be a canopy that is a little more ragged out than everyone else's.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher