JohnRich 4 #26 January 9, 2012 QuoteYes a canopy *can* function without all lines. Is it worth risking? Cuting a suspension line will give you a new malfunction that by most or all standards should be cut away. Depends on the type and size of the canopy, the location of the line, and the experience of the jumper. I've landed canopies with a broken line quite a few times. And cut-away from one once. Once was during a Nationals accuracy competition, when one of my steering lines broke on opening. I approached the target with my arms and legs spread out, to signal the judges that I had a problem and was not making an accuracy run. I landed by flaring on rear risers, standing up, and then with the judges waiting to see what my problem was, I pulled my broken toggle out of my jumpsuit and dangled the broken line in front of them. "Re-jump granted". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #27 January 9, 2012 QuoteLook at the jump numbers / experience of those saying that this jumper was stupid. Look at the jump numbers / experience of those people saying he did a good job. First off, nobody said the guy was stupid. But I'll question the packer as possibly being either stupid or lazy. Either that of God just doesn't like the jumper. Second, with respect to the young vs old skydiver methods, I'd like to put in a word to the young jumpers out there reading this thread. (One of the young jumpers here has some misconceptions and we'll ignore that for now. He's already been rebuked so no need to hammer on him.) For all the young jumpers...pre-license, newly minted A's and the B's in particular.... What you are reading here is a lot of commentary from highly experience skydivers who have, for the most part, experienced a number of EP situations throughout their career. They are comfortable handling these types of things. What you, as a young jumper, need to do in a situation like this is follow your training...whatever that may be. One of these days, when you have some real experience under your belt like those guys do, some EPs taught to you now will change over time. Until then...follow your training. I have a hard time believing that any training school would teach their students to ride a non-landable canopy down to any specific altitude and then act. Most schools would teach students in a situation that is identifiable as a non-fixable main to immediately cutaway the deployed main and then deploy the reserve. If it's a canopy that you cannot fix to land safely, then immediately cutaway and deploy the reserve. You have a decision altitude. That decision altitude does NOT mean ride a non-fixable mal down to that altitude and then act such as you see in this video. It means that IF you are trying to fix a problem you should have a landable canopy over your head by that altitude....and that means you either -fixed the problem by then or -you couldn't fix it and initiated EPs by then. Finally, in regards to EPs, please do NOT take what you read here or in any DZ.com thread as solid gold, good-to-go without discussing these things with your local instructors and mentors. Because, learning to skydive on the internet is not a good idea. Reading is static, YOUR mal is going to be dynamic and any number of things could happen while it's in progress. Not every mal of this type is going to progress smoothly like this one....yours may be quite different. And a last note to the experienced guys .... Young jumpers a world away from where you are now, experience-wise. Don't forget that, please.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jimmytavino 16 #28 January 9, 2012 Dynamic !!! , popsjumper......your entire post........jmy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
manseman 0 #29 January 9, 2012 I'd want to save my hook knife for the freak reserve line over. Or freak whatever that might need knifing when making my last canopy landable. Students here are taught (for a number of good reasons) never to cut suspension lines on their main, and I still think that makes very much sense in most situations for almost everybody. Veteran riggers with many thousands of jumps will obviously have more valid options than the rest of us. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kd5xb 1 #30 January 9, 2012 Thanks for your post, Popsjumper. Good info from an "old head". I'm not 100% sure, but I would almost bet that the below is in response to my earlier post. Quote From wildcard451: Wanna do a nice thought experiment? Look at the jump numbers / experience of those saying that this jumper was stupid. Look at the jump numbers / experience of those people saying he did a good job. Then make your decision. I don't have a lot of jumps. My initial jump training was in 1978, and I'm still here today, in relatively good condition. No chronic back problems or anything else. I DO have several hundred hours as PIC of single-engine aircraft, and I can PERSONALLY vouch for four out of the following six conditions. (I've always heard that the wise man learns from other people's mistakes, so I guess I haven't always been that wise.) Perhaps my experience in airplanes should add a little credit to my suggestion that you not squander your altitude. Quote From me: Video shows a bad move. Things which do you no good in aviation: - Altitude above you. - Runway behind you. - Fuel in the truck. - Half a second in history. - Approach plates in the car. - The airspeed you don't have. BTW, I don't recall using the word "stupid" anywhere, so perhaps the comment form wildcard451 was NOT meant for me. Speculation.I'm a jumper. Even though I don't always have money for jumps, and may not ever own a rig again, I'll always be a jumper. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flipper 0 #31 January 9, 2012 Video shows a jumper completly aware and in control of the sitauation that he is in, in my opinion he analysed and delt with the situation perfectly Your post shows that you require more education, jumps & expierence Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crotalus01 0 #32 January 9, 2012 He chopped at about 4K so he had plenty of altitude. I would have done the same thing (minus unstowing the brakes). It looked like the canopy was flying okay, but not safe to land (obviously). I dont have a lot of jumps, so just for reference, my first chop I was freaked out and got rid of it right then (4K), my second was low and high speed so it went immediately, my third (broken lines) I flew upwind before I chopped at about 3K to better my chances of getting my shit back. As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #33 January 9, 2012 QuoteFirst watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PsOL4AS5rcE Should he wasted 9,000 ft, which he might have needed in case of reserve malfunction? What would you do if this happened to you, you did have a hook knife, and your exit weight was 200 lbs: - on 100 foot canopy? - on 200 foot canopy? Some updated info for the discussion. The person who posted the video is Niklas Daniel, highly experienced jumper. The canopy is a PD Velo The line in question appears to be the outside A line. IMO it changes nothing, he is still right. MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #34 January 9, 2012 QuoteVideo shows a jumper completly aware and in control of the sitauation that he is in, in my opinion he analysed and delt with the situation perfectly Your post shows that you require more education, jumps & expierence I question your inclusion of "education". Nothing he said is wrong. Since you didn't specify, I also question your implied reasoning that how this jumper handled the problem would apply to every jumper with a similar problem. Again, experience levels matter...a whole lot. So many of us have forgotten what it's like to be a young jumper.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #35 January 9, 2012 Quote The canopy is a PD Velo Whaddayaknow! A screwed up Velo CAN fly straight! My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flipper 0 #36 January 9, 2012 Asking instructors / exp jumpers would have added to his education / expierence ... instead of sharing his inexpierence in this thread I didnt imply that what the jumper did would work everytime or suit everyjumper ... as I said he analysed the situation and reacted ... in my opinion ... correctly Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wildcard451 0 #37 January 9, 2012 QuotePerhaps my experience in airplanes should add a little credit to my suggestion that you not squander your altitude. Good point. Usually quite good advice. In this situation, in this jumper's hands, that was a non issue, and not a bad move. /you didn't use stupid. I was embellishing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trae 1 #38 January 9, 2012 in reply to "IMO it changes nothing, he is still right." ................................ Totally agree. He landed safely . wasn't injured. only had to go collect some plastic and bits of metal from the paddock. Some-one probably did it for him. And then he shared the lesson with the rest of us. How much more perfect a jump can you get? Well done mate. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jockeyshifter63 0 #39 January 10, 2012 Pops, I always appreciate how you break things down for us newer jumpers. Keepin' it in perspective so to say. Thanks from a noob. I can definately see how someone with more experience would handle this differently than say myself with lower numbers and even less experience. Just sayin' Thanks my friend. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #40 January 10, 2012 QuoteI can definately see how someone with more experience would handle this differently than say myself with lower numbers and even less experience. Just sayin' Thanks my friend. You are more than welcome. Please keep that good attitude and try to instill it on others.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Douggarr 6 #41 January 10, 2012 I enjoyed reading this string, and I found most of the comments fairly intelligent. I will tell you one thing, however. In the four malfunctions I've had that resulted in reserve rides, not once did I calculate the cost of replacing a freebag or losing a main, etc., or even saying, I'm at a wide open DZ or my canopy is solid green and I'm over trees, yada, yada, yada.SCR-442, SCS-202, CCR-870, SOS-1353 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hellis 0 #42 January 10, 2012 QuoteQuoteYes a canopy *can* function without all lines. Is it worth risking? Cuting a suspension line will give you a new malfunction that by most or all standards should be cut away. Relining a canopy is not cheaper than a repack, unless you only replace those few lines that you cut, but it will still be very close to the same price as a repack. So should you cut the line because you don't trust the reserve? In that case I think one should think about what they are doing. Where are you getting your instruction from? Some of your views are a bit, misinformed. Cutting the one line is not a new malfunction, just a new result of the same malfunction. If thought out, usually, means problem reduced/removed and it is safe to land. The Canopy only needs a "few" lines to "function". In the end the design works BEST with ALL lines, but you can land with a few missing, many of use have. One should never use money as motivation during a malfunction and EP's. YES! On should always think about what they are doing! Just like the Jumper in the video did! Matt Matt I would say when you cut the A4 and B4 line of a 7 cell canopy you have a malfunction. I have never seen it been done, but if you think it's safe to land a canopy with that much fabric flapping around. Get video of it. And what I meant about the cost. In my opinion you would have to be both dumb and cheap to even try a mid air rigging that involves cutting the A4 and B4 line. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #43 January 10, 2012 I agree that, that line, may not be smart to cut, but that was not the discussion, it was broader than that. I have landed several canopies with an A line broken, PLF'd the landing and walked in to the loft. That was with big Demonstration canopies, with the sub 100 foot Velo, I don't think it I would try it. MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 93 #44 January 11, 2012 Quote I enjoyed reading this string, and I found most of the comments fairly intelligent. I will tell you one thing, however. In the four malfunctions I've had that resulted in reserve rides, not once did I calculate the cost of replacing a freebag or losing a main, etc., or even saying, I'm at a wide open DZ or my canopy is solid green and I'm over trees, yada, yada, yada. After cutting away, before the reserve opened, I did think about how much of a pain in the ass it will be to fit my rig back into the gear bag for the flight home. When I had one of my R3 (modified capewell type) releases get activated during a zoo exit, I did wait until I got down lower before opening the reserve. Getting blown away in the desert under a round reserve greatly increases your chances of hitting a nasty bit of desert foliage.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #45 January 14, 2012 The only problem with his actions was trying to catch his freebag after the chop. That has caused entanglements before, it's not worth the risk. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #46 January 15, 2012 What I thought about on my first cutaway was the cost of the re-pack (I was pissed) but it didn't slow me down on execution. My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mirage62 0 #47 January 15, 2012 Quote What I thought about on my first cutaway was the cost of the re-pack (I was pissed) but it didn't slow me down on execution. LOL come on POPs what did a repack cost then $10? Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #48 January 15, 2012 It seems that there is some confusion about a “line over” vs. a “step through”. They are 2 completely different malfunctions. One is created on the ground and the other happens during opening. The video shows a “step through” of the left outside A/B line. The reason he had to hold so much right toggle to keep it straight the “step through” had the same effect as a left front riser turn. As for cutting the line or cutting away, that is a personal decision. With the exception of a handful of test jumps with a set matrix I have always lived by the rule if I can’t land it, it’s gone. I don’t do rigging in the air. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #49 January 16, 2012 Quote LOL come on POPs what did a repack cost then $10? When you're making $1.50/hr that's a LOT of money! My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
