Watching out for newbies [was - hard impact at Nats]

[grimmie 173]

Way back before computers and DZ.com I had a great friend. Jean Guy was a Canadian jumper from Calgary. He was the nicest person in the world. He hung out in Eloy for the winters and packed, shot video and did some woodworking for me when I built the Bent Prop.
The only problem Jean Guy had was, he just wouldn't listen. His canopy skills were horrific, but he thought he knew better.
We all begged him to slow down. Myself, Dan BC, Mike McGowan, Bryan Burke, everyone.
On Ron Green's ash dive he nearly took out some jumpers on final. He got "Burked" to the student area. The regulars then started calling the student peas the Jean Guy landing area.
Jean Guy assured me he was slowing down. Then one year at Lost Prairie I watched him almost kill himself on a 270. I was so pissed at him. I told him he was going to kill himself or someone else. I didn't want to jump with him and put myself at risk. He was really upset with me, and the other jumpers from his DZ that stated the same things. He was so damned stubborn and wanted to be like the cool kids.
Well now that student landing area at Eloy is called the "Jean Guy Memorial landing area" by the oldtimers.
Jean Guy hooked himself into the ground at a boogie and died in the helicopter on the way to the hospital. That was September of 2000.
I miss him. He was a lot of fun to be around. He was a dear friend.
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2773636;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread

Slow down. This record keeps repeating itself...

[mjosparky 3]

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Jean Guy hooked himself into the ground at a boogie and died in the helicopter on the way to the hospital. That was September of 2000.
I miss him. He was a lot of fun to be around. He was a dear friend.

The “old farts” that take the time to give advice have too many memories and stories of friends who wouldn’t listen and died because of it. The young guns that have the “I know what I am doing” attitude haven’t seen their buddies bounce 4 feet off the ground and land in a heap. It’s sad to say but some of us are here because of the lessons we gleaned from the deaths and life changing injuries of others. But we learned and survived. It’s a good thing that most jumpers move on after about 3 to 5 years or the body count would over the top.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[Trae 1]

in reply to "The young guns that have the “I know what I am doing” attitude haven’t seen their buddies bounce 4 feet off the ground and land in a heap."
.........................................

Knocks the wind out of em when they do.
.. perhaps a bit of sense as well but what a hard way to learn.

A possible future for minimising canopy carnage might be to emulate the CRW pilots more so than the swoopers .
Not as highly visible as swoopers, but they have a much wider skill set.
These CRW canopy specialist guys fly meticulously matched wingloadings and standardised gear minimising undesirable canopy performance differences.
General sport skydivers fly a smattering of .....whatever.

As a highly refined (30 years of development) and therefore a less experimental facet of our sport than swooping , CRW offers a well trodden path without the same degree of carnage down the swooping lanes.

CRW is also more of a team effort than swooping and teaches consideration of others which makes it less of a stunt and more of a sport.

.

[sebcat 0]

Now, I wonder if someone ever hook turned and swooped a stack? (the answer is probably 'yes')That would be awesome... :)

It has more to do with personality than it has to do with the discipline itself. Some people are like Dean Moriarty when it comes to risk taking, the whole live fast and take your chances thing. It's not about understanding or managing the risks, it's more like gambling.

[piisfish 135]

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Now, I wonder if someone ever hook turned and swooped a stack? (the answer is probably 'yes')That would be awesome... :).

I saw downplanes like that

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

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That is brilliant.....

Very rarely do so many warnings, advice, over pages and pages of transcripts completely get ignored to the extent of the skygod in training, actually really fucking themselves...

Maybe we could cut this thread down a bit and make it a sticky...

Well done sangi, you've done yourself proud....

I'm Glad it was only you, and not an unsuspecting victim as-well.

No, it's just pretty rare that the pages and pages of warnings and advice are documented this well or are proven to be accurate so quicky.

I've been debating commenting on this, and with the number of deleted posts and warnings in the Incidents thread, I'll do it here.

First off, I'm sorry he got hurt. But he was warned. VB risked losing him as a friend in order not to have him get hurt (in vain as it turned out, but the effort was there).

His comments about not fearing death indicate to me that he refused to believe that he was going to get hurt. He wouldn't admit it, probably not even to himself, but he believed deep in his heart that he was too good to die.
He's not the first one I've seen this in (including myself). Most of us are immortal for a period of time, usually late teens to early twenties. Some have harder lessons than others, some only have a second or two left in their life to realize it.
I had a friend biff hard enough to break bones earlier this year. One week after being warned he was pushing too hard. He may or may not have learned his lesson. It's a bit early to tell. Indications are mixed. I have to decide how much I can and am willing to do in order to keep him from getting hurt again. It may cost me our friendship, and even that may not be enough to keep him from hurting or killing himself.

This isn't new or limited to skydiving. Some people realize the risks, take the time and put forth the effort to become competent and end up doing well. Others...
Not so much. They don't have the patience to put in the work. They are looking for the "rush" of doing dangerous stuff without realizing how dangerous it really is. Sangi's posting history shows (to me at least) that he had very little appreciation for the risks in the stuff he was doing and wanted to do.

It was "cool" or "fun" or a "rush", but not really dangerous. Not in any way that would really affect him.
Well, he's going to have to live with the effects of those choices. For the rest of his life. Like 'Twardo noted, you don't come back all the way from these kinds of injuries.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[Muffie 0]

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His comments about not fearing death indicate to me that he refused to believe that he was going to get hurt. He wouldn't admit it, probably not even to himself, but he believed deep in his heart that he was too good to die.

Or maybe he was thinking he was either going to die or pull it off and if he was dead, then it was over and if he pulled it off then he'd get the rush.

I've been thinking about this for a bit now and Sangi's incident brought it to the forefront in my mind. When I entered the sport I knew there was a risk of dying no matter what you did (plane crashes happen each year), but I was ok with that risk. I'm single and I don't have so much as a plant that relies on my continued existence. I don't want to die and I'm sure there are people who would miss me (hopefully), but if I did die it'd be over. It was when I started to realize the number of busted pelvises, snapped femurs, etc. that my perspective started to change, because what I don't want is to be laid up in a hospital for six months and unable to walk properly for the rest of my life. And I don't want to have to put that kind of burden on the people around me or find myself alone in a moment like that because none of them can take it.

Now, I'm not into rapid canopy progression or doing crazy stupid shit on my jumps, so I'm not exactly the target population for these types of "interventions" but maybe we need to quit telling guys who are pushing too hard too fast that they might die and instead talk to them about the jumpers who are in wheelchairs, brain damaged, have lost limbs, etc. Maybe we should emphasize instead the life changing consequences of surviving accidents like this.

Instead of seeing it as go big or die it might help if they see it as taking a little extra time to learn the right skills vs. living the rest of their life looking at the sky and wishing they could jump but not being able to.

[Baksteen 84]

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As a highly refined (30 years of development) and therefore a less experimental facet of our sport than swooping , CRW offers a well trodden path without the same degree of carnage down the swooping lanes.

CRW is also more of a team effort than swooping and teaches consideration of others which makes it less of a stunt and more of a sport.

While CReW definitely focuses on the finer points of canopy control, the landings are not much emphasised. And let's not kid ourselves, the landing remains the most important part of any jump.

Besides, nowadays the wingload for the best CReW teams is what; 2.0? 2.4?

CReW is certainly heaps of fun if us pups take the right approach to learn it. However, if people take the Sangi approach to CReW, you're looking at a double fatality in the making.

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[Joellercoaster 6]

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maybe we need to quit telling guys who are pushing too hard too fast that they might die and instead talk to them about the jumpers who are in wheelchairs, brain damaged, have lost limbs, etc. Maybe we should emphasize instead the life changing consequences of surviving accidents like this.

I've been thinking about this point, and it's interesting, but in the end I have to admit I don't buy it.

These guys (and they are all guys) aren't really unafraid of death. Not even Sangi, who claimed he's not scared of death. They just really do genuinely believe it won't happen to them. It's hard to be frightened of something that just happens to other people, maybe people less talented or quick on the draw. People they don't even know - guys on the internet, people who died or maimed themselves in some abstract other place.

A lot of them don't even know what death or horrible injury is, not in a real way.

I fear changing the message it to "horrific injury" won't change the end result. The trick is not describing consequences they're going to be scared of, it's somehow convincing them that they're not immune in the first place.

--
"I'll tell you how all skydivers are judged, . They are judged by the laws of physics." - kkeenan

"You jump out, pull the string and either live or die. What's there to be good at?

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

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maybe we need to quit telling guys who are pushing too hard too fast that they might die and instead talk to them about the jumpers who are in wheelchairs, brain damaged, have lost limbs, etc. Maybe we should emphasize instead the life changing consequences of surviving accidents like this.

I've been thinking about this point, and it's interesting, but in the end I have to admit I don't buy it.

These guys (and they are all guys) aren't really unafraid of death. Not even Sangi, who claimed he's not scared of death. They just really do genuinely believe it won't happen to them. It's hard to be frightened of something that just happens to other people, maybe people less talented or quick on the draw. People they don't even know - guys on the internet, people who died or maimed themselves in some abstract other place.

A lot of them don't even know what death or horrible injury is, not in a real way.

I fear changing the message it to "horrific injury" won't change the end result. The trick is not describing consequences they're going to be scared of, it's somehow convincing them that they're not immune in the first place.

This is a lot of what I meant. These types may claim that they aren't afraid of death, but it's really that they don't believe it will happen to them. Others perhaps, but not them.

It's well known in flying, fast cars and motorcycles (and in skydiving of course).
You see a lot of this type quit after an injury, a close call, or seeing someone near them get hurt or killed. A few of them will actually admit that while they thought they understood the risks, it took that close call or injury or whatever to pound home how dangerous what they were doing was.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[daremrc 0]

This is the second thread I can think of where we have someone being told that they may not have the mad skillz that they think they have, and then they pound in. At least Sangi is still around.... Maybe we can make a sticky and hope that these two documented cases convince someone to slow it up a bit...

The Setup: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1111481#1111481

The Incident: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2346556;search_string=xenia%20;#2346556

Good judgement comes from experience, and most of that comes from bad judgement.

[hokierower 0]

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This is the second thread I can think of where we have someone being told that they may not have the mad skillz that they think they have, and then they pound in. At least Sangi is still around.... Maybe we can make a sticky and hope that these two documented cases convince someone to slow it up a bit...

The Setup: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1111481#1111481

The Incident: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2346556;search_string=xenia%20;#2346556

Wow. All I can say to that. Read through both threads. It's amazing how history keeps repeating itself and the guilty parties never believe it will happen to them.

[piisfish 135]

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This is the second thread I can think of where we have someone being told that they may not have the mad skillz that they think they have, and then they pound in. At least Sangi is still around....

there are far more than that. Unfortunately.

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[Scrumpot 1]

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there are far more than that. Unfortunately.

Maybe we should start a "catalog" thread of them. Then make it a sticky. "Those who thought they all knew better" or are/were different/better somehow, or some such. - That way, the reader(s) we are trying to get through to can maybe find via perusing the MULTITUDE of them, which one(s) (traits/characteristics) he/she best/most identifies with - and SEE (come to their own individual applicable epiphany's) THEMSELVES?

You're right. The history and pages of DZ.com (and rec.dot before it) are literally littered with these - But there exists no good single place/search source to quickly/easily reference them. Maybe a links catalog might actually help.

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[Ron 7]

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Maybe we should start a "catalog" thread of them.

I used to have a list of "Dead men jumping" that later died or got seriously broken. My computer crashed and I lost it..... But I can tell you the list was much longer than you would think.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Rstanley0312 0]

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Maybe we should start a "catalog" thread of them.

I used to have a list of "Dead men jumping" that later died or got seriously broken. My computer crashed and I lost it..... But I can tell you the list was much longer than you would think.

So sad

Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it.
Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000
www.fundraiseadventure.com

[Squeak 17]

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Maybe we should start a "catalog" thread of them.

I used to have a list of "Dead men jumping" that later died or got seriously broken. My computer crashed and I lost it..... But I can tell you the list was much longer than you would think.

Was I on it

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[Krip 2]

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Jean Guy hooked himself into the ground at a boogie and died in the helicopter on the way to the hospital. That was September of 2000.
I miss him. He was a lot of fun to be around. He was a dear friend.

The “old farts” that take the time to give advice have too many memories and stories of friends who wouldn’t listen and died because of it. The young guns that have the “I know what I am doing” attitude haven’t seen their buddies bounce 4 feet off the ground and land in a heap. It’s sad to say but some of us are here because of the lessons we gleaned from the deaths and life changing injuries of others. But we learned and survived. It’s a good thing that most jumpers move on after about 3 to 5 years or the body count would over the top.

Sparky

Hi Mr Sparky

I can understand a some folks not wanting to listen to the old farts, what do they know anyway

But the incidents forum has all the objective info of all the ways to date of how people have killed and maimed themselves, includeing the latest trend of not only hurting themselves but other jumpers in the air and on the ground.

Don't want to get hurt really really bad, don't do the stupid shit that the other guys/gals did to get really really hurt.

IMO minor injuries are part of skydiving but the latest trend of injuries is just using poor judgement and is even selfish when they hurt someone else.

USPA is going to do anything to stop the carnage, most of the GMDZO won't do anything to prevent it. There is a solution to this self induced problem.

IMO The fun jumper skydivng community needs to start policing themselves rather than relying on the industry to do their job.

I think thats one of the reasons there's lots of "Teams" not only for competion purposes but to protect themselves from jumping with the people that may harm them.

R.
To bad they don't include all the people that walk with a pe

One Jump Wonder

[craigbey 0]

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USPA is going to do anything to stop the carnage, most of the GMDZO won't do anything to prevent it. There is a solution to this self induced problem.

IMO The fun jumper skydivng community needs to start policing themselves rather than relying on the industry to do their job.

Did you mean to say that the USPA is not going to do anything?

My rules might be different than yours. Are you sure you want me to police your actions?

[billvon 2,395]

>My rules might be different than yours. Are you sure you want me to police your actions?

He probably does. He can ignore you.

Keep in mind that 99% of the people who are calling for safer skies mean "I want everyone else to stop doing stupid shit, while I take my carefully considered, well thought out risks." Thus they support plans that will not affect them.

[craigbey 0]

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>My rules might be different than yours. Are you sure you want me to police your actions?

He probably does. He can ignore you.

Keep in mind that 99% of the people who are calling for safer skies mean "I want everyone else to stop doing stupid shit, while I take my carefully considered, well thought out risks." Thus they support plans that will not affect them.

I agree, he can ignore me if I try to police his actions. That was part of my point, and I suspect that it was also part of his.

But without an established standard, how do you know if my rules are more or less strict? I may not tolerate certain behaviors that he engages in when flying his canopy. I may choose to take it up with him or the DZ when he does something that I consider dangerous. Am I wrong?

His point was that we need to police ourselves. We do that now ... very poorly. If he wants to make a difference, he needs to come up with a more specific way for us to 'police ourselves' that helps reduce the carnage that he is so worried about.

[billvon 2,395]

>I may choose to take it up with him or the DZ when he does something
>that I consider dangerous. Am I wrong?

In his eyes, yes. Look at VirginBurner - every person who has tried to get him to slow down is wrong in his eyes.

>he needs to come up with a more specific way for us to 'police
>ourselves' that helps reduce the carnage that he is so worried about.

Agreed. That can really only come from DZO's, since they are the only people that skydivers are obliged to listen to.

[craigbey 0]

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That can really only come from DZO's, since they are the only people that skydivers are obliged to listen to.

Them and those fine people in the front of the plane with the cards that say FAA on them.

[mjosparky 3]

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Agreed. That can really only come from DZO's, since they are the only people that skydivers are obliged to listen to.

That’s what I have been saying all along. USPA, S&TA’S, instructors, none of them have the ability or authority to enforce squat. Only the DZO’s can control what happens at their DZ.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[SRI85 0]

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Agreed. That can really only come from DZO's, since they are the only people that skydivers are obliged to listen to.

That’s what I have been saying all along. USPA, S&TA’S, instructors, none of them have the ability or authority to enforce squat. Only the DZO’s can control what happens at their DZ.

Sparky

The S&TA where i jump stopped me from jumping my canopy. I had to go elsewhere for a couple months.

BTW im just sharing that for the sole purpose of letting people know that downsizing is policed at alot of places.