deployment techniques

[Fuzzy 0]

Funny as you were writing that I was writing this

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1 thru 8 Very Nice - I especially like #5

I hope you don't mind, but I am going to print this out for reference

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You mentioned that's what you do with low jump number people. What do you do with, or expect from, the more experienced jumes (ones you don't already know personally?

Fuzzy

Fuzzy
Ambition / Ability: Know the difference.

[AggieDave 6]

I'm going to print out your post for reference at my DZ. A very well worded post with a LOT of good information!


Myself as a TI don't let people even lurk a tandem with 100 jumps much less go video. That's just asking for an incident, nevermind that I could get my rating yanked if something happened. I'm not willing to put what I've worked hard for on the line just so someone can start something well before they have the experience to and create an incident.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[diablopilot 2]

For the "experts" out there, who think they are ready.

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Date 12/26/1998
Location Maricopa, AZ
Category FFCOL
Age 60
# Jumps 1
AAD?/RSL? Y/Y

Description: An experienced jumper gave his mother a tandem for Christmas. He filmed it. At pull time he found himself "next to the drogue". He hit the deploying main and became wrapped in it. He worked his way out of the mess but snagged a line with his foot. As he fell clear, the line broke and he hit the Tandem pair. He continued in freefall and deployed his main. He landed safely. The tandem master and possibly the passenger were knocked out. The tandem slowly spun into the ground. The Tandem Master is alive and in the hospital. The passenger (mother) was killed.

Lessons:Colliding with the subject you are filming is a very, very serious error. Everything which occured after this point is only a consequence of that error

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[NSEMN8R 0]

Do you know the experience level of the videographer and TM?

[diablopilot 2]

Yeah. Lots.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[livetofly 0]

I understand that starting to video tandem jumps with low numbers is dangerous. I'm not saying i know the dangers of it because i dont want anyone jumping down my throat because i said i know something and dont have a 1000 jumps. But what are some of the risks of putting a camera on your head when you jump to start getting the feel of it. I'm looking for real replys and not references to moving to fast and how you can hurt yourself swooping.

[PhreeZone 14]

Some of the issues can be:

Sliding formation - Do you know how to keep them in frame and not have to think about how you need to move to do it? It needs to me an instantious responce from your. Too much input and you blow the shot, not enough and you take out the formation. You might say so what... but what happens if you fall in and hit someone in the neck knocking them out and they bounce now?

On the topic of orbiting formations... almost every new RW videoguy has had the issue of circling the formation while trying to keep them in frame, you need to know how to pick a heading and fly the heading while putting the sun in the right spot as to not wash them out or put your shadow on them. That takes flying abilities that you don't learn anywhere else but in video jumps.

Tandems actually have very specific requirements (RWS at least) that say you need to be an instructor to jump with a Tandem. Break the rules and the TM can have his ratings pulled. Tandems slide, alter fall rate, move and the whole trap door is there to suck you in too if you don't know what you are doing. Avoiding the drogue on exit, staying out of the burble, etc takes skills. LOTS of skill. Tandems are probally one of the most difficult things to film. I've seen lots of crappy attempts at filming them (my stuff included) and only a few really good people that can film them correctly.

Distractions while just in freefall have lead to many Cypres fires. No matter how much you say it will not distract you IT WILL. Looking at crappy video on the ground gets old quick. You will quickly start to fly so that the video is better. Next thing you know suddenly you are more worried about having good looking video then you are looking at your altimeter. Next time you are on the ground watching videos take a look to see how many times the videographer looks over at his Alti. I'll bet its at exit and pull. Doing otherwise makes for crappy video. You can't do it on Formations or RW.

If you are just learning to Freefly then its a REALLY bad Idea because once again you get more worried about the results of the video then you do of learning the right body positions.

I screwed up on the learning with the camera and still can't fly HD. Its starting to come to me now that I don't jump the camera anymore and know that the distraction is gone.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[AggieDave 6]

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No matter how much you say it will not distract you IT WILL.

I had just a hair under 1000 jumps when I put a camera on my head. I swore it wouldn't be a distraction since I had nearly 1000 jumps.

Holy crap!

It was a HUGE distraction and still is to this day. Your camera will be on your mind, even when knee deep in a complicated skydive your camera is still on your mind.

Especially under canopy when your D-box is hitting your slider or your risers, making it more of an effort to look around for traffic.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[livetofly 0]

thanks for the input. Those are some good issues to think about

[rhys 0]

well daves post about the tandem deploying while the camera man is up by the canopy reminds me of a similar situation(without incident) that happened at a d.z. down the road from here the inexperienced camera flyer was up near the canopy when the tandem master deployed the canopy.

well who is a fault?

in my mind the tandem master. in the situation i know of the tandem deployed at 5000' without even looking to see where the camera man (my buddy) was.

the tandem master had over 8000 jumps the camera flyer had little more than 200.

camera people geneally don't look at an altimeter untill the tandem deploys. and usually(i hope) have two audibles.

what the fuck is a tandem master doing deploying a canopy while somebody is beside/above it?

what is in the first stage of your skydiving lessons?

GENERAL AWARENESS

if you ask me the tandem master is responsablr fopr that poor mothers death. and this is a bad example. would you deploy your canopy if there was somebody beside it? would it not be safer to go a bit lower and try to wave the person away. if they are filming they would be LOOKING at the tandem pair.

100 jumps is plenty to start filming.
200 jumps is enough to start filming tandems.

500 jumps is not enough to start doing tandems
why do most countries allow people to start at this #
this is dangerous.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[Pendejo 0]

I can understand how you could feel that way.... At my home DZ, working for me, the first rule is this.

NEVER... AND I MEAN F**KING NEVER... UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES BE ABOVE A TANDEM AFTER THEY EXIT TILL THEY LAND. NO EXCEPTIONS IF I SEE IT (and I do all the editing so I will) YOU ARE DONE. NO QUESTIONS ASKED

There has been more than 1 or 2 that have left (or told they can't shoot video anymore) our DZ because I wouldn't let them get the shot from above.... I know it looks cool to us... But the passenger is more interested in seeing their face (if you don't think so hangout while their video is being edited sometime). There is no good reason to be up there where the TM can't see you.

At some DZ's I'm sure the rules might be different. But at Blue Sky Adventures, the TM responsibility is his passenger. If there is a video guy in the air with him it is the VIDEO flyers responsibility to not be in the way. On 100% of all tandems, the passengers safety comes first, getting the "cool" shot is WAY down the list. The TM's are busy as shit from the time they get on the plane till they get back in the hanger and DO NOT need to worry about where I am flying or what I am doing while I'm in the air with them.


(Sorry for the rant, but this subject drives me nuts).

Pendejo

He who swoops the ditch and does not get out buys the BEER!!

[Pendejo 0]

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You mentioned that's what you do with low jump number people. What do you do with, or expect from, the more experienced jumes (ones you don't already know personally?

Fuzzy

[ltdiver 3]

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If there is a video guy in the air with him it is the VIDEO flyers responsibility to not be in the way. On 100% of all tandems, the passengers safety comes first, getting the "cool" shot is WAY down the list. The TM's are busy as shit from the time they get on the plane till they get back in the hanger and DO NOT need to worry about where I am flying or what I am doing while I'm in the air with them.

I agree 100% with you. A TI should not have to worry at all where the cameraflyer is. This is the trust that must be demonstrated and understood. A TI has alot on their plate working with their student they do not need the extra worry of an inexperienced cameraflyer.

(and yes, the post above yours makes me want to rant, too).

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[Fuzzy 0]

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All of our video flyers are home grown.

He will have to do at least 1 outside with me and 1 spec with me shooting outside (after we talk about all the stuff that we don't allow).

Thanks

We're pretty much in the same boat in that anyone wanting to do this is already known by us, but this lets me know my thinking is not out of line.

As and aside - One other thing we look for is a good personality. Tandems pay good money so the video person is part of making it fun and needs to be able to interact with the tandems in air and on the ground.

Oh yeah - They also have to have the ability to NOT MAKE a tandem go low because they got over top of it (they are to never get over top of it period - end of story.....). That WOULD be the last video jump at our place. The TI would see to that before I got a chance.

Glad to see my feelings of "NEVER EVER GET IN THE WAY" are not out of line on this one either.


Thanks again

Fuzzy

Fuzzy
Ambition / Ability: Know the difference.

[davelepka 4]

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well daves post about the tandem deploying while the camera man is up by the canopy

well who is a fault?

in my mind the tandem master

Just to be clear, I was refering to a high fall rate tandem, that the newbie video guy was struggling to stay with.

All it would take is any physical reaction from the camera flyer to the TI's going in for the pull. Even an attempt to back up when you are at 101% of your fall rate will produce some float. Given it's a newbie, I could see that float being accompanied by some forward drive, and there you have the camera flyer in the lines.

I agree that it is stupid for the TI to dump with someone above him, HOWEVER, of the few tandems I have done, none were with video, but I can say that I felt as if I had several blind spots above me. I can also say that at pull time, I wanted to pull, and if I had lost my video guy, a quick scan of what I could see is all I would give before releasing the drouge.

That being said, if a skydiver cannot commit to being able to abide by the safety requirements of shooting video 100% OF THE TIME, WITH NO EXCEPTIONS, they should not be jumping with any tandems in any situation. Period.

[Pendejo 0]

As and aside - One other thing we look for is a good personality. Tandems pay good money so the video person is part of making it fun and needs to be able to interact with the tandems in air and on the ground.
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I agree, our guys have a set routine (that they come up with) they use for the interview ect, but they still can't sound like they are reading it (unlike me ).

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Oh yeah - They also have to have the ability to NOT MAKE a tandem go low because they got over top of it (they are to never get over top of it period - end of story.....). That WOULD be the last video jump at our place. The TI would see to that before I got a chance.
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Same here, the TI'S (understandably) would be kicking ass while I was asking what the heck happened.

Pendejo

He who swoops the ditch and does not get out buys the BEER!!

[Fuzzy 0]

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what .......is a tandem master doing deploying a canopy while somebody is beside/above it?

Gotta call Bull Sh.. on this one.

What's the TI to do, wait until when 3000' - 2000' in hopes that the person will get out of the way or back in view? You can wave to signal "somethings about to happen" but beyond that, he needs to get a parachute out.

Did this TI wave in this case? Not that it really matters as the camera person should not have been over the tandem (especially at that alt.) If the person following was not able to stay altitude aware and know that it was time to "not be up there" (especially while filming a tandem) then that person should not have had a camera and should not have been following a tandem. Plain and Simple.

I do tandem video, but am also a TI (as are many people on this list) - My feeling, the responsibility is 100% on the video person to stay out of the way.

If someone follows me, & I can't see them when deployement time is coming (visibility & mobility can be somewhat restricted when you have someone strapped to your chest) - I will wave like a frantic lunatic, then get a parachute over our heads when its time - not later. If it turns out the person was above me, they WILL get their ass chewed off for endangering my passanger.

When I do video & it's getting near "that time", I am in front and below where the TI can see me, and where I can see the passangers smiling face, that's my job (not to get a advert for the tandem rig). **Edited to say** I back off enough that I'm not going to be kicked by the tandem etc**

Again
If someone doesn't have the ability or skills to maintain alititude awareness &/or stay out of the way and be safe while doing video maybe they should not have a camera on just yet.

Maybe do a poll to see what the general consensus is on who is responsible. If I'm wrong, I will gladly conceed the point (although my feelings won't change).


Fuzzy

Fuzzy
Ambition / Ability: Know the difference.

[rhys 0]

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NEVER... AND I MEAN F**KING NEVER... UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES BE ABOVE A TANDEM AFTER THEY EXIT TILL THEY LAND. NO EXCEPTIONS IF I SEE IT (and I do all the editing so I will) YOU ARE DONE. NO QUESTIONS ASKED

so when you say above do you mean directly above in the burble or above and to the side?

i do a high (and underneath) orbit on every jump i get above the drouge (and to the side) and the photo/video is absolutly amazing as we have an amazing veiw.

your customers do not get the product they could get because you uys are scared of an incident that may happen. 5t is up to the tandem master to decide whether somebody can jump with them and if they think they may not be up to scratch then they can decide to tell them they cannot jump with them.

if the decide they can and the jumper is not very experienced then IT IS UP TO THE TANDEM MASTER to breif the person in question what to do. floating is what happens to most newbies including me when i started. there could have been many ways out of this situation. the best i believe is have the dytter set at 6500' as i do always (so i can freefly on photo only jumps to 15000' )

i bet you guys get boring shot of sitting in front of the tandem pair because camera flyers would be scared to piss you off.

thats not fair to your good paying customers.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

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[rhys 0]

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Gotta call Bull Sh.. on this one.

What's the TI to do, wait until when 3000' - 2000' in hopes that the person will get out of the way or back in view? You can wave to signal "somethings about to happen" but beyond that, he needs to get a parachute out.



wel i gotta call bull shit on your call.

yes the tandem master should go lower if someone is in thier blind spot(beside the drouge) tandem canopies are huge, people have pulled lower than 5000' without incident huge amounts of times. if you have a newbie with you (i'll say it again incase you didn't get it the first time) IT IS THE TANDEM MASTERS RESPONSABILITY to brief the newbie what to do and WHAT NOT TO DO!

a tandem pair and a photographer together are a team.
you all work together the t.i. and the photographer SHOULD talk with the customer make them feel as if they are part of the jump (not just tagging along, who's paying for it remember)

it shouldn't be,

'the tandem master' gotta get my $40 i hope the camera guy doesn't get in the way. i'm scared.

'the photographer' gotta get the shot and keep the framing. what are those shots the t.m. is too scared of me doing again.

'the customer' gee these guys take this so seriously i wonder if they have fun anymore?

lighten up. have faith in your equipment and let the photographer get the shot they want. trust them. if you can't, tell them. if they are a newbie HELP them by telling them what is safe and what isn't

if you are a t.m. don't under any circumstances release the drouge if there is sombody right beside it. you will be responsable for the collision and will probably die as well.

think of the different options there are to dumping because it is 5000'

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

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[rhys 0]

[freakydiver 0]

lol

-- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --

[Fuzzy 0]

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so you look at your alti while you are shooting video? or you had the built in height awarness when you started? and those who don't shouldn't bother starting? i agree they should be safe able to stay out of the way if need be. but come on man you gotta start somewhere.

No I don't look at my altimeter while shooting video (I don't wear one when videoing tandems - you want to slam me - slam me for that) I do however wear audible(s) but as a back up only. I also do not recommend jumping without an alti, it's just how I do it.

Sense of timing is a big thing in my mind - If someone has not built up some kind of an internal clock to the point they know the skydive is coming to an end, then I'm saying they probably shouldn't be shooting that type of video just yet, whether that be Tandem, freefly, RW whatever - (My Opinion)

I just started learning headdown - my internal clock / sense of timing and skill level in this are such that I do wear an altimeter on these jumps, I **do not** wear my camera head down and don't plan on doing so for some time.

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come on man you gotta start somewhere.

You are absolutly right. At our place, you can start when you have proven you can stay out of the way / get out of the way / not be in the way when it's time.

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IT IS THE TANDEM MASTERS RESPONSABILITY to brief the newbie what to do and WHAT NOT TO DO!

Again absolutly right - I don't know it the TI did so in your example, but what does the TI do when that "newbie" doesn't do what he was told to do? It doesn't take long to go from 5000' to 4000', then 3000' etc. Have a collapsed drogue in tow or some other crappy mal then the 3000' to 2000', time is even shorter. Why put him in that situation in the first place.

I am on a small DZ where there are not too many people who are going to follow me on a tandem (deffinetely no strangers). Those who do follow me know not get above me or out of my line of sight.

Yes, you can pop up and orbit a tandem pair and get the "cool shot" nothing really wrong with that, but you can do so without being in the way of a suprise deployment.


Bottom line, speaking as a camera guy - "I" feel it's "my" responsibility to stay out of the way of the tandem, and making sure people following them do the same (includes not being in a situation where I/they can end up hitting the Tandem or get sucked into the burble), I / we can & do still get the "good shots" and still haven't gotten bored.

Anyone wanting to do video at the place I work has to feel and do the same.


You're place has a different policy, if it works and the TI's are cool with it, hey, more power to you.


Fuzzy

Fuzzy
Ambition / Ability: Know the difference.

[flypunk 0]

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Again
If someone doesn't have the ability or skills to maintain alititude awareness &/or stay out of the way and be safe while doing video maybe they should not have a camera on just yet.



so you look at your alti while you are shooting video? or you had the built in height awarness when you started? and those who don't shouldn't bother starting? i agree they should be safe able to stay out of the way if need be. but come on man you gotta start somewhere.

[Pendejo 0]

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so when you say above do you mean directly above in the burble or above and to the side?

I meant directly above or in close proximity.

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i do a high (and underneath) orbit on every jump i get above the drouge (and to the side) and the photo/video is absolutly amazing as we have an amazing veiw.

We do the lower orbit with the tandem turning the other way. I agree it makes for cool video.

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your customers do not get the product they could get because you uys are scared of an incident that may happen.

Fear has little to do with having a standard that is an attempt to be as safe as we can.

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5t is up to the tandem master to decide whether somebody can jump with them and if they think they may not be up to scratch then they can decide to tell them they cannot jump with them.

See number 5 of my post on the previous page.

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if the decide they can and the jumper is not very experienced then IT IS UP TO THE TANDEM MASTER to breif the person in question what to do.

See number 3 of my post on the previous page. This is where they get the briefing from me.

Then see number 7. This is where the Tandem Instructor gives the briefing to them.

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floating is what happens to most newbies including me when i started.

This is why we do number 6 of my post on the previous page. I can fall faster than most tandems (in drouge fall). I give them the faster fall rate to work with, see how they handle it, and then discuss it on the ground.

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there could have been many ways out of this situation. the best i believe is have the dytter set at 6500' as i do always (so i can freefly on photo only jumps to 15000' )

I agree. All of the video guys at our DZ wear an audible

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i bet you guys get boring shot of sitting in front of the tandem pair because camera flyers would be scared to piss you off.

Some would say that is true. I have yet to see a customer say " geez, why didn't you get that shot from above like he did." What I have had happen is customers asking why didn't he get in front of me like in the other video (and yes the other video had his 15 seconds of face time)...

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thats not fair to your good paying customers.

[crazydiver 0]

Minus the look...

Cheers,
Travis