Douva 0
Would you giveaway your video footage for a project that would air on TV?
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PhreeZone, in Photography and Video
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All footage is usable. Even competiton footage. I'm leary of giving away footage as once it is published and is viewed you might have a hard time to sell it a larger forum.
I have every chance to sell competion footage. Some people wouldn't know it was or wouldn't care.
I would like to know if we can figure a better way to work out how the competion fliers are handing the footage and not getting compesation for it. At least the team could get a discount for it. But I also see if this was any other sport televised or to tape, they would require a model release as it is much easier to have their crew which is obviously on the ground getting images of you.
We know that the process going into so we either make a case for it or don't compete I guess.
I have every chance to sell competion footage. Some people wouldn't know it was or wouldn't care.
I would like to know if we can figure a better way to work out how the competion fliers are handing the footage and not getting compesation for it. At least the team could get a discount for it. But I also see if this was any other sport televised or to tape, they would require a model release as it is much easier to have their crew which is obviously on the ground getting images of you.
We know that the process going into so we either make a case for it or don't compete I guess.
www.canopyflightcenter.com
www.skydivesac.com
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www.skydivesac.com
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Douva 0
QuoteAll footage is usable. Even competiton footage. I'm leary of giving away footage as once it is published and is viewed you might have a hard time to sell it a larger forum.
I have every chance to sell competion footage. Some people wouldn't know it was or wouldn't care.
I would like to know if we can figure a better way to work out how the competion fliers are handing the footage and not getting compesation for it. At least the team could get a discount for it. But I also see if this was any other sport televised or to tape, they would require a model release as it is much easier to have their crew which is obviously on the ground getting images of you.
We know that the process going into so we either make a case for it or don't compete I guess.
Okay, I'll grant you that any footage can potentially be sold, but I'd be interested in hearing from any camera flyers who have actually sold competition footage and hearing how many times they've done so and how much they earned. I'm just curious how much this is really a case of the camera flyers being afraid they'd loose money. I find it hard to believe that my proposal would cost many, if any, camera flyers a sale.
I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.
lewmonst 0
I still agree with Peter on this one. Just yesterday I was seriously asked to jump with someone and give them all the footage and stills for free. And I said, "I do this for a living, I simply can't afford to just give it away." And I doubt I could sell that footage to anyone, so should I give it away? No.
To me, I doubt I'd sell the competition footage, but I wouldn't rule it out. Even if I didn't sell it though, I would not give it away. It's about principle and about being a professional.
It will cost someone a sale sometime. If they really want the footage, they should pay for it. If they refuse to pay for it, and get it for free from someone else, that's costing the professionals a sale. And what's worse, when they get it for free, they will expect it for free. Why should our sport and our work be treated any differently from other proffesionals who's work is on ESPN?
peace
lew
To me, I doubt I'd sell the competition footage, but I wouldn't rule it out. Even if I didn't sell it though, I would not give it away. It's about principle and about being a professional.
It will cost someone a sale sometime. If they really want the footage, they should pay for it. If they refuse to pay for it, and get it for free from someone else, that's costing the professionals a sale. And what's worse, when they get it for free, they will expect it for free. Why should our sport and our work be treated any differently from other proffesionals who's work is on ESPN?
peace
lew
http://www.exitshot.com
Douva 0
QuoteI still agree with Peter on this one. Just yesterday I was seriously asked to jump with someone and give them all the footage and stills for free. And I said, "I do this for a living, I simply can't afford to just give it away." And I doubt I could sell that footage to anyone, so should I give it away? No.
That scenario is a little different in that you would have to spend extra time and energy to make that free jump--time and energy you could be spending on a paid jump. Camera flyers who shoot competition footage are going to be shooting the video regardless of whether or not it's later used by ESPN. All they would be asked to do is let USPA hand over its copy to ESPN.
QuoteWhy should our sport and our work be treated any differently from other proffesionals who's work is on ESPN?
It's the same reason that our competitors can never expect to earn the same salaries or get the same endorsement deals as the other athletes on ESPN--There is just not an equal market for skydiving competitions, when compared to other competitive sports. The only way for skydiving on TV to work is if those of us who love the sport and live off the sport can mutually agree to forgo our own economic ambitions for the greater good of the sport. I'm not talking about giving up any money; I'm just talking about agreeing to not get paid for something you probably weren't going to get paid for anyway. And although it's not the ultimate goal, doing this might lead to an increase in demand for this type of video footage, and that might lead to an increase in the number of media outlets looking to purchase skydiving footage and the number of paying gigs available to professional camera flyers.
I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.
"The only way for skydiving on TV to work is if those of us who love the sport and live off the sport can mutually agree to forgo our own economic ambitions for the greater good of the sport. I'm not talking about giving up any money; I'm just talking about agreeing to not get paid for something you probably weren't going to get paid for anyway. "
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This is not the only way. If we maybe had more competions my might have a chance. We were in the x games. Was our timing off and the people not ready for it?could freefly make it entertaining now? The venues are there we just are not getting asked bythe promoters.
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" I'm just talking about agreeing to not get paid for something you probably weren't going to get paid for anyway. "
"
I'm not giving up any footage for the greater good. That is a defeative additude of "you prbably weren't goinf to get paid for anyway"
Well, ya know its mine and if anyone wants to use it I will ask for compensation. If aoptional agreement can be arange and I'm comfortable I'll go with it. But its still mine.
BTW, when has anyone bought the camera flyer a beer or dinner for making them famous on the DZ or TV. UH? No matter which DZ, the most common thing I hear is "look at me" when the videos play. Only a handful of people acknowledge my work and dedication.
that might be why I have great footage of them.
Buy your camera flyer a beer some time. Because we can also get footage of you screwing up or maybe we move you out of frame......
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This is not the only way. If we maybe had more competions my might have a chance. We were in the x games. Was our timing off and the people not ready for it?could freefly make it entertaining now? The venues are there we just are not getting asked bythe promoters.
----------------
" I'm just talking about agreeing to not get paid for something you probably weren't going to get paid for anyway. "
"
I'm not giving up any footage for the greater good. That is a defeative additude of "you prbably weren't goinf to get paid for anyway"
Well, ya know its mine and if anyone wants to use it I will ask for compensation. If aoptional agreement can be arange and I'm comfortable I'll go with it. But its still mine.
BTW, when has anyone bought the camera flyer a beer or dinner for making them famous on the DZ or TV. UH? No matter which DZ, the most common thing I hear is "look at me" when the videos play. Only a handful of people acknowledge my work and dedication.
that might be why I have great footage of them.
Buy your camera flyer a beer some time. Because we can also get footage of you screwing up or maybe we move you out of frame......
www.canopyflightcenter.com
www.skydivesac.com
www.guanofreefly.com
www.skydivesac.com
www.guanofreefly.com
Douva 0
Quote"The only way for skydiving on TV to work is if those of us who love the sport and live off the sport can mutually agree to forgo our own economic ambitions for the greater good of the sport. I'm not talking about giving up any money; I'm just talking about agreeing to not get paid for something you probably weren't going to get paid for anyway. "
--------------------
This is not the only way. If we maybe had more competions my might have a chance. We were in the x games. Was our timing off and the people not ready for it?could freefly make it entertaining now? The venues are there we just are not getting asked bythe promoters.
But don't you think the best way to get people hooked is to "give them the first one for free?" Get it out there, get some people emailing ESPN asking when the next skydiving competition is going to be aired, and then maybe they'll start thinking it'd be worth their while to fork up the money to keep skydiving on the air.
Quote
----------------
" I'm just talking about agreeing to not get paid for something you probably weren't going to get paid for anyway. "
"
I'm not giving up any footage for the greater good. That is a defeative additude of "you prbably weren't goinf to get paid for anyway"
Well, ya know its mine and if anyone wants to use it I will ask for compensation. If aoptional agreement can be arange and I'm comfortable I'll go with it. But its still mine.
BTW, when has anyone bought the camera flyer a beer or dinner for making them famous on the DZ or TV. UH? No matter which DZ, the most common thing I hear is "look at me" when the videos play. Only a handful of people acknowledge my work and dedication.
that might be why I have great footage of them.
Buy your camera flyer a beer some time. Because we can also get footage of you screwing up or maybe we move you out of frame......
I know you guys are under appreciated, but the sport couldn't exist without you, and skydiving will never make it onto television without your support. It's the curse of the person behind the camera to always take a back-seat to the person in front of it, but I do hope you realize that there are those of us out there who understand and appreciate what you do. And if your team knew it was your footage that was going to make it onto ESPN, you can bet they'd care who's behind the camera. Hell, the going rate for a team camera flyer might even go up a bit.
I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.
ltdiver 3
QuoteBut don't you think the best way to get people hooked is to "give them the first one for free?
Tell ya what, Douva. You give your video away for the "hook 'em" angle and we'll do what others in the industry have written here as good business practice. Then we'll come back together in 10 years and see who's theory is valid.
ltdiver
Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon
lewmonst 0
QuoteBut don't you think the best way to get people hooked is to "give them the first one for free?"
And dropzones should give away 1st skydives, to get people hooked, so more people would jump and it would be good for the sport, right?
(yeah yeah, I know what you're going to say to that...)
Besides that, it's been on TV before, ESPN had skysurfing in the xgames. They've had their taste of it. We've all been over why it's not on xgames anymore and why in general, it is not a spectator sport for the masses.
How about asking Joe Jennings, Greg Gasson, Tom Sanders or any of those guys if they would let their footage air on ESPN for nothing?
I revert back to what I said earlier, which you left out in your last reply to me:
It's about principle and about being a professional.
It will cost someone a sale sometime. If they really want the footage, they should pay for it. If they refuse to pay for it, and get it for free from someone else, that's costing the professionals a sale.
So like Lori said, you can give them your footage for free, undercutting the real value of it, but I (and several others here) will stick to our principles for the betterment of all camera flyers in the long run.
And of all places, ESPN can afford to pay for it. Our footage is professional work and should be treated as such. Giving it away for free, especially to a big network, makes us and our sport look like ametuers.
peace
lew
http://www.exitshot.com
jdhill 0
Its funny, the only person advocating giving away footage is not a "professional" camera flyer, but rather someone who spends time in front of the camera... who does this benefit again?
J
J
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke
scottbre 0
You really can't compare someone who just flies camera giving their footage away to a professional camera flyer (at least a good one) selling their footage and related services. I have a camera, and generally I am more than happy to share my footage with others, as long as I'm given credit for it when it is shown to someone else, and as long as they want it to watch, not to use it to make them money. I don't consider myself a good enough of a camera flyer, to charge people for my footage, so if they want it, I will usually give it to them.
But saying that I'm undercutting a skilled camera flier by doing this isn't really comparing apples and apples.
I could go over to someone's house and help them do yard work, as a friendly gesture, but that doesn't mean that I'm undercutting a professional landscaping company that would have normally charged for yardwork and landscaping. The company that does it professionally can do it professionally because they are significantly better at it, and the results are much more polished.
Now it's entirely possible that my footage will get to the point where it is good footage that people should pay me for, and if that ever happens, then I will consider not giving it away anymore and trying to do it "professionally", but that is my choice and my decision as to whether I think my services are good enough to provide to people for compensation other than the joy of doing it.
The only people who should be whining about people giving away video are the "professional" camera folks who aren't really that good, and as a result are genuinely threatened by better amateur camera fliers who will give their footage away. To those people I say, get better! It's called capitalism, if your services are really worth what you are charging for them then people will pick up on that, and get a better product in the process. If they take free video that is easily inferior to your more refined product then be content knowing that they just got a subpar memory of a potentially once in a lifetime event. You get what you pay for.
If your video/stills aren't good enough to be noticeably better than Mr. I-Fly-Camera-For-Fun's, then you deserve to be losing business to their charitability.
EDIT:
I think the focus of what I've posted here is a little bit tangental to the original purpose of this thread, but it still applies, at least marginally.
"Your mother's full of stupidjuice!"
My Art Project
But saying that I'm undercutting a skilled camera flier by doing this isn't really comparing apples and apples.
I could go over to someone's house and help them do yard work, as a friendly gesture, but that doesn't mean that I'm undercutting a professional landscaping company that would have normally charged for yardwork and landscaping. The company that does it professionally can do it professionally because they are significantly better at it, and the results are much more polished.
Now it's entirely possible that my footage will get to the point where it is good footage that people should pay me for, and if that ever happens, then I will consider not giving it away anymore and trying to do it "professionally", but that is my choice and my decision as to whether I think my services are good enough to provide to people for compensation other than the joy of doing it.
The only people who should be whining about people giving away video are the "professional" camera folks who aren't really that good, and as a result are genuinely threatened by better amateur camera fliers who will give their footage away. To those people I say, get better! It's called capitalism, if your services are really worth what you are charging for them then people will pick up on that, and get a better product in the process. If they take free video that is easily inferior to your more refined product then be content knowing that they just got a subpar memory of a potentially once in a lifetime event. You get what you pay for.
If your video/stills aren't good enough to be noticeably better than Mr. I-Fly-Camera-For-Fun's, then you deserve to be losing business to their charitability.
EDIT:
I think the focus of what I've posted here is a little bit tangental to the original purpose of this thread, but it still applies, at least marginally.
"Your mother's full of stupidjuice!"
My Art Project
lewmonst 0
QuoteYou really can't compare someone who just flies camera giving their footage away to a professional camera flyer (at least a good one) selling their footage and related services. I have a camera, and generally I am more than happy to share my footage with others, as long as I'm given credit for it when it is shown to someone else, and as long as they want it to watch, not to use it to make them money.
Right, but we're talking about ESPN here, and they would be using it to make money. We're not talking about just showing footage to our friends.
I agree it's an open market. That person who asked me to shoot them for free also said "well so-and-so will do it for free" and I said "Great! There you go, get them to jump with you."
peace
lew
http://www.exitshot.com
jdhill 0
The bottom line is that if something is going to be on a network like ESPN or ESPN2 there is money changing hands, and a fair amount of it (Network pays producer (say uspa or DZ), advertisers pay network, etc)... the producer should not get a free winfall... the talent, and crew should get something, and it appears that "credit" does not fly with the experienced folks. This is not some schmuck with a video camera filming his buddy on a skateboard ramp.
And if something like this did make it to air, what do you think it would be comprised of? My guess is it would be 80-90% (if not more) Open classes... where the video guys are, more often than not, "professionals".
J
And if something like this did make it to air, what do you think it would be comprised of? My guess is it would be 80-90% (if not more) Open classes... where the video guys are, more often than not, "professionals".
J
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke
Douva 0
Let me ask you all this: Is it really more about the principal? I mean, if USPA agreed to pay a small stipend to anybody whose footage is used, would you be satisfied that your work wasn't being used for free, even if the amount was well below what you might get for selling footage in other venues? What if USPA waved their annual renewal fee for any camera flyer whose footage is used in a broadcast of Nationals? Or what if they gave you $25 for each jump of yours that its used in the broadcast? Would you be satisfied in knowing that you weren't being used without reimbursement, or would you not be satisfied until USPA was paying you the $500/minute somebody suggested in the other thread? My goal is to keep the production cost low enough to make this feasible. If USPA has to pay $15,000 for jump footage, on top of all the other expenses, it will never work.
I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.
lewmonst 0
QuoteLet me ask you all this: Is it really more about the principal? I mean, if USPA agreed to pay a small stipend to anybody whose footage is used, would you be satisfied that your work wasn't being used for free, even if the amount was well below what you might get for selling footage in other venues? What if USPA waved their annual renewal fee for any camera flyer whose footage is used in a broadcast of Nationals? Or what if they gave you $25 for each jump of yours that its used in the broadcast? Would you be satisfied in knowing that you weren't being used without reimbursement, or would you not be satisfied until USPA was paying you the $500/minute somebody suggested in the other thread? My goal is to keep the production cost low enough to make this feasible. If USPA has to pay $15,000 for jump footage, on top of all the other expenses, it will never work.
USPA could easily afford $15,000 for jump footage if ESPN paid the USPA what they should for the 30 minute show.
ESPN already knows skydiving on TV does not draw a big audience, therefore it would not draw advertisers to support the segment. I hope this changes in the future, but I don't see it happening.
You'd have a better chance probably with a smaller more specialized company like AdrenalineTV. Then again, you'll have a better chance of being on tv if you race lawn-mowers.
Why do you want to be on TV so bad?
peace
lew
http://www.exitshot.com
Pendejo 0
I think it would definitely depend on the circumstances.
At our Dropzone we had a reality TV show come and make tandems with us. The program aired both locally and nationally, and the DZ received a lot of plugs throughout the show. They repeatedly said both the DZ name and town that the DZ is in all throughout the 2 show series. The DZO came to the video concession and asked if we would shoot the freefall footage portion of the show (which we did). The DZO then made sure that all the vidiots involved were taken care of very well (no that doesn't mean more video work, we have plenty of that as it is). In that situation where its a great benefit to the DZ (and to the video concession) we were glad to give them a copy of the video (payment to the concession was $1.00). Since that time we have seen an increase in tandems as well as videos in general. I think it was worth it to both the DZ and the video concession (which I run) to have the footage run in the local market. That being said... If there wasn't going to be a plug for a specific DZ in that DZ's local market I doubt I would even consider doing it for free.
Pendejo
He who swoops the ditch and does not get out buys the BEER!!
At our Dropzone we had a reality TV show come and make tandems with us. The program aired both locally and nationally, and the DZ received a lot of plugs throughout the show. They repeatedly said both the DZ name and town that the DZ is in all throughout the 2 show series. The DZO came to the video concession and asked if we would shoot the freefall footage portion of the show (which we did). The DZO then made sure that all the vidiots involved were taken care of very well (no that doesn't mean more video work, we have plenty of that as it is). In that situation where its a great benefit to the DZ (and to the video concession) we were glad to give them a copy of the video (payment to the concession was $1.00). Since that time we have seen an increase in tandems as well as videos in general. I think it was worth it to both the DZ and the video concession (which I run) to have the footage run in the local market. That being said... If there wasn't going to be a plug for a specific DZ in that DZ's local market I doubt I would even consider doing it for free.
Pendejo
He who swoops the ditch and does not get out buys the BEER!!
I don't see a reason to change what the norm in a professional business practice. I shoot, I sell. They want they must buy.
If i want to use footage of someone they must sign a model release for me to use in a project or advertisemnet. If I sell a picture I own the copyright and the client pays for limited useage at standard rates, or the pay big bucks to own the image.
Thats the cliff not end of the legal side of the busniess. Why change it? If they say they would like the footage for reason above and beyond the nationals video then they need to compensate the photgrapher. Simply that.
I'm not trying to bust your balls on this but you are really being vocal on this that can really effect someone's pocket book. Like mine and a lot of others. The broadcast indusrty has money. They can pay standard rates for our footage.
And its all about principle.
Do you pay your camera flyer?
If i want to use footage of someone they must sign a model release for me to use in a project or advertisemnet. If I sell a picture I own the copyright and the client pays for limited useage at standard rates, or the pay big bucks to own the image.
Thats the cliff not end of the legal side of the busniess. Why change it? If they say they would like the footage for reason above and beyond the nationals video then they need to compensate the photgrapher. Simply that.
I'm not trying to bust your balls on this but you are really being vocal on this that can really effect someone's pocket book. Like mine and a lot of others. The broadcast indusrty has money. They can pay standard rates for our footage.
And its all about principle.
Do you pay your camera flyer?
www.canopyflightcenter.com
www.skydivesac.com
www.guanofreefly.com
www.skydivesac.com
www.guanofreefly.com
QuoteYou really can't compare someone who just flies camera giving their footage away to a professional camera flyer (at least a good one) selling their footage and related services. I have a camera, and generally I am more than happy to share my footage with others, as long as I'm given credit for it when it is shown to someone else, and as long as they want it to watch, not to use it to make them money. I don't consider myself a good enough of a camera flyer, to charge people for my footage, so if they want it, I will usually give it to them.
But saying that I'm undercutting a skilled camera flier by doing this isn't really comparing apples and apples.Quote
I agree with you here. I do a lot of jumps paying my own slots to flim the fun jumps, sunset loads and xxxth jumps for my friends. I'll give them a fire wire/dvd/vhs. They are my friends. I know a lot of camera fliers that do this for free.Quote
The only people who should be whining about people giving away video are the "professional" camera folks who aren't really that good, and as a result are genuinely threatened by better amateur camera fliers who will give their footage away. To those people I say, get better! It's called capitalism, if your services are really worth what you are charging for them then people will pick up on that, and get a better product in the process. If they take free video that is easily inferior to your more refined product then be content knowing that they just got a subpar memory of a potentially once in a lifetime event. You get what you pay for.
If your video/stills aren't good enough to be noticeably better than Mr. I-Fly-Camera-For-Fun's, then you deserve to be losing business to their charitability.
Rarely are you going to find that. The pros are usually given the higher profile jumps. But I have to say that I find your quote of that a bit insulting saying that some of us posting about sound professional practices who have been doing it longer than you state your jumping years, are "Whining"
I think you and douva should do a little more research and really sit down and talk to your local camera fliers. See what their opinons are.www.canopyflightcenter.com
www.skydivesac.com
www.guanofreefly.com
Douva 0
I'll try to let this be my final word on the subject.
I respect the hell out of anybody who can strap a camera to his or her head and keep the subject tightly in frame through every backslide, side slide, fall rate change, etc. I have just enough camera jumps to recognize that this is a very difficult discipline that takes a long time to master. For my first couple of hundred jumps, I even thought camera flying was the discipline I wanted to pursue. I'm in awe of guys like Joe Jennings and Norman Kent, and I'm only slightly less in awe of some of the incredible camera flyers at my own drop zone. I say all this because I don't want anyone getting the impression that I don't appreciate what you do or that I'm trying to undercut your livelihood. I am simply trying to look at the long-term future of competitive skydiving.
I think it would benefit the competitors and the sport in general to have increased exposure through the mainstream media. The only way I can foresee any television network taking a chance on skydiving is by keeping the cost to the network very low. High overhead was the determining factor in the failure of skydiving in the X-Games. Because most camera flyers are already being paid by the team they fly for and because competition footage is not a very marketable commodity, I do not think it would be unreasonable for camera flyers participating in Nationals to allow the use of that footage for a televised broadcast. If televised skydiving turned out to be a surprise ratings winner for the network, USPA could then demand more reasonable fees for future events, and the camera flyers and other technical personnel involved in the production could be paid reasonable fees for their services.
I do not pay my cameraman because he is part of my team. Skysurfing is a little different, in that respect, from most competitive skydiving disciplines. His skill is judged for an equal portion of our score, and he competes for a medal, just like I do. But I appreciate that this is not the case in other disciplines, and I respect that most camera flyers look at flying for a team as simply a job. However, it is my belief that if more camera flyers would look toward the long term benefits of exposing the general public to competitive skydiving, they would see the merit of using this footage they've already shot and probably won't sell as bait. And I don't believe granting that kind of latitude to the USPA would serve as a precursor to free tandem videos or free boogie videos or free record attempt videos or anything like that.
In a sport as small as ours, we need to work together toward a positive future. I understand why many of you may disagree with my plan, but please do not assume that I am discounting the investment of time and money it took you to reach this point in your careers or that I simply don't care whether or not you earn a living. I am simply trying to look at a bigger picture.
Blue skies,
Douva
PS. And don't think that because I don't pay my cameraman I don't appreciate the hell out of him. After all, he is one half of L.A.S.T.
I respect the hell out of anybody who can strap a camera to his or her head and keep the subject tightly in frame through every backslide, side slide, fall rate change, etc. I have just enough camera jumps to recognize that this is a very difficult discipline that takes a long time to master. For my first couple of hundred jumps, I even thought camera flying was the discipline I wanted to pursue. I'm in awe of guys like Joe Jennings and Norman Kent, and I'm only slightly less in awe of some of the incredible camera flyers at my own drop zone. I say all this because I don't want anyone getting the impression that I don't appreciate what you do or that I'm trying to undercut your livelihood. I am simply trying to look at the long-term future of competitive skydiving.
I think it would benefit the competitors and the sport in general to have increased exposure through the mainstream media. The only way I can foresee any television network taking a chance on skydiving is by keeping the cost to the network very low. High overhead was the determining factor in the failure of skydiving in the X-Games. Because most camera flyers are already being paid by the team they fly for and because competition footage is not a very marketable commodity, I do not think it would be unreasonable for camera flyers participating in Nationals to allow the use of that footage for a televised broadcast. If televised skydiving turned out to be a surprise ratings winner for the network, USPA could then demand more reasonable fees for future events, and the camera flyers and other technical personnel involved in the production could be paid reasonable fees for their services.
I do not pay my cameraman because he is part of my team. Skysurfing is a little different, in that respect, from most competitive skydiving disciplines. His skill is judged for an equal portion of our score, and he competes for a medal, just like I do. But I appreciate that this is not the case in other disciplines, and I respect that most camera flyers look at flying for a team as simply a job. However, it is my belief that if more camera flyers would look toward the long term benefits of exposing the general public to competitive skydiving, they would see the merit of using this footage they've already shot and probably won't sell as bait. And I don't believe granting that kind of latitude to the USPA would serve as a precursor to free tandem videos or free boogie videos or free record attempt videos or anything like that.
In a sport as small as ours, we need to work together toward a positive future. I understand why many of you may disagree with my plan, but please do not assume that I am discounting the investment of time and money it took you to reach this point in your careers or that I simply don't care whether or not you earn a living. I am simply trying to look at a bigger picture.
Blue skies,
Douva
PS. And don't think that because I don't pay my cameraman I don't appreciate the hell out of him. After all, he is one half of L.A.S.T.
I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.
I don't do a lot of posting but thought this was a least a healthier topic to give my thoughts.
I also see the big picture that you are trying to make. Greater exposure for skydiving.
I think the middle ground is hiring a media/marketing person/firm by the uspa to make it happen.
If they need footage the will be able to find it from the camera fliers and compensate them for it. The money is there. being paid will give the camera fliers the means to keep their gear maintained and up to current satndards. Cameras and skydiving gear.
I get paid for 4 way jumps. Nothing to get rich off. For Guano the freefly team I'm on I cover my slot as part of the team. All the competion training costs us a lot. Well worth it. The best jumps I do all year.
There is a happy middle ground, when asking for footage, find a budget that makes each party happy.
I also see the big picture that you are trying to make. Greater exposure for skydiving.
I think the middle ground is hiring a media/marketing person/firm by the uspa to make it happen.
If they need footage the will be able to find it from the camera fliers and compensate them for it. The money is there. being paid will give the camera fliers the means to keep their gear maintained and up to current satndards. Cameras and skydiving gear.
I get paid for 4 way jumps. Nothing to get rich off. For Guano the freefly team I'm on I cover my slot as part of the team. All the competion training costs us a lot. Well worth it. The best jumps I do all year.
There is a happy middle ground, when asking for footage, find a budget that makes each party happy.
www.canopyflightcenter.com
www.skydivesac.com
www.guanofreefly.com
www.skydivesac.com
www.guanofreefly.com
Ron 7
QuoteI feel the need to close by suggesting that in the future you refrain from making comments or giving advice on subjects you obviously know very little about.
Does that also apply to you and your thoughts on making skydiving popular?
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
Ron 7
I agree....
I have a question however.
How do you feel about the USPA taking your footage and giving it to someone to make money?
It is what they did in Lake Wales.
Opinion?
I have a question however.
How do you feel about the USPA taking your footage and giving it to someone to make money?
It is what they did in Lake Wales.
Opinion?
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
Douva 0
Quoted from the related Bonfire thread:
Quote
Ron, you are more interested in winning a fight than discussing the issue of promoting skydiving. Your latest post doesn't contain a single supporting argument for your case nor does it elaborate on any of the points you've made in previous posts. Its entire purpose is to insult and discredit me. Apparently I missed the USPA meeting that set the line between infallible skygod and naïve newbie somewhere between seven and eleven years in the sport. I don't know why you take the suggestion that skydiving could be successfully promoted on television as a personal affront, but I will not continue this discussion with you as it turns into a mud slinging competition. Good day.
I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.
Believe me, I know well the problem of amateurs undercutting professionals. I saw it when I was doing video production, and I saw it when I was doing a lot of production assistant work--People always expected me to work for free. Anytime people know you enjoy what you do, they're going to try to screw you on your fee.
But that's not what we're talking about here. I'm not suggesting anyone do a TV show or a movie for free. Undercutting professionals only applies to a situation where there is competition for the work. This is about handing over competition footage that you've already shot and have no chance of selling. Obviously only a team camera flyer can provide the team competition footage. You giving it away for free isn't preventing some other camera flyer from getting paid to do the work.
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