superstu 0 #26 January 31, 2012 Someone was nice enough to put the article on their website, for those interested: http://pyrodan.privatedata.com/skydive/stu-schoenfeld-report.pdfSlip Stream Air Sports Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GLIDEANGLE 1 #27 January 31, 2012 I was the guy in slot 2 on the other side of that attempted 30-way CReW formation who got wraped at the same time as you did. Laszlo's images of your cutaway are REALLY scary. Perhaps he would let you link to them here. There are lessons in those images for non-CReW dawgs. One of the many issues is the relevance of an AAD for even the skilled jumper who is on his game. All I can say is when I finally looked down after getting the canopy off of me and saw how far below us your inflated reserve canopy was..... I knew that there likely was a scary story waiting to be told.The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #28 January 31, 2012 Maybe this will answer your question? Much of it is a summary of what Dave has already said but.... We don't talk about it much because it's not part of current standard procedures to try to counteract the effects of rapidly developing rotational forces. We train to avoid the problem and immediately cutaway and deploy the reserve in HP, high-speed, spinning mals. I don't think many, if any, skydivers facing this situation would be willing to agree to modify EPs for this problem to include AGSM. Besides, they probably already do something similar anyway just naturally so why give them something else to think about. ME? If I tried it, I'd probably shart. Good stuff that you're thinking, though. So many don't. Keep it coming! My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ferrarimv 0 #29 January 31, 2012 very good thread...learned a lot from here... mal.... = cut away asap & deploy reserve ;):::Skydive - Preacher ::: ~~Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born from above he cannot see the kingdom of God~~ (Jn3:3) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dthames 0 #30 February 1, 2012 Quote We train to avoid the problem and immediately cutaway and deploy the reserve in HP, high-speed, spinning mals. I don't think many, if any, skydivers facing this situation would be willing to agree to modify EPs for this problem to include AGSM. Besides, they probably already do something similar anyway just naturally so why give them something else to think about. Pops, I will pretend you are really baiting me to respond.Mr. Schoenfeld was quoted (Parachutist article mentioning high G malfunction) to say, “Now, when I exit, my right hand goes right to that cutaway handle. It’s right there, just in case.” Not his EP but post deployment proceedures to be more ready for a similar event. You said yourself that many jumpers most likely do something similar (to AGSM) naturally. I would suggest a jumper in the high risk group (small canopy or someone jumping with fireworks equipped Airtwardo) might see value in learning AGSM and then a person could Arch, Reach, Throw, one, two, whisper HOOK (closes glottis), strain while your hand is on the cutaway,.......ALL just in case something unexpected happens. If it goes bad, do what you would always do, your EPs. But you are better prepared. The blood is staying up in your brain more. Why would I care? Why would I post when it is not a threat to me? Well, years ago I copied some video tapes for our F-4 pilots after they went to the centrifuge training for the F-16 conversion. They would ramp them up to 4 or 5 Gs then quickly on up to 7. Boom, just like that most would pass out. If they were not straining hard already they passed out, very quickly (like blink of the eye). But after a few tries, they learned to be more on top of the game. By the end of the training they could look over their shoulder and handle 9Gs for a few seconds. Being able to hang in there maybe one more second (if better prepared) trying to pull the handle might make the difference between getting the handle pulled or not getting it pulled. In skydiving I keep hearing that people should work to manage the risks. If you "might" be exposed to a high G situation, you "might" want to know how to manage it better.....maybe.......Na.Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!” Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pchapman 261 #31 February 1, 2012 I do think your suggestions would be going too far in skydiving normally. We generally aren't subject to conditions where a G loading during a spinning mal is going to cause loss of consciousness really quickly -- straining in anticipation or having a hand near the cutaway handle. We don't need to be quite that primed to cut away. Even under small canopies, we're typically better to be primed to deal with an off heading opening and conflicting traffic. And I'm saying all that as someone who has an interest in G loads, and thinks that having skydivers know about the idea of straining against G would possibly be a handy extra thing to know as advanced knowledge, for those in poorer physical condition or those getting into higher performance canopies. I'm a very hazy on my high G physiology now, but we'd normally go from low G to some higher G and have those 4-5 or whatever seconds of oxygen still available in the brain as a reserve. (Using the classic g vs. time consciousness boundary chart.) Greying out due to the blood pressure loss against the eyeballs would help give warning, just as for aerobatic pilots. So there should be a few seconds in which to react and strain. I'm not quite sure how that differs when going from a steady 5g up to 7g. Not sure if the few seconds of reserve time still applies. Or maybe it is just that if ones AGSM & breathing cycles are poor, it may be easier to miss noticing that one isn't keeping up with requirements, and after those 5 seconds, lights out. (It's been 15+ years since I read all the G load articles I could find in the Aviation,Space & Environmental Medicine journal...) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #32 February 1, 2012 Quote Pops, I will pretend you are really baiting me to respond. No, my friend...not baiting you. Just discussing and relating my opinion. That doesn't say yours is wrong...not at all. Quote I would suggest a jumper in the high risk group (small canopy or someone jumping with fireworks equipped Airtwardo) might see value in learning AGSM and then a person could Arch, Reach, Throw, one, two, whisper HOOK (closes glottis), strain while your hand is on the cutaway,.......ALL just in case something unexpected happens. All well and good. The point I'm making is: If I am in that situation and my hand is already on the handle, then I'm going to use it and not screw around waiting. Just that simple. If my hand is NOT on the handle, maybe I should get it there very quickly before it spins me so fast that I can't lift my arm to get to it instead of wasting time squeezing my butt cheeks together to see if I can keep some blood in my head. But, yes, I can see where training the ASGM could be beneficial in non-worst case situations. Worst case being not being able to get my hand to the handle. Now, in the article, Mr. Schoenfeld was quoted to say, “Now, when I exit, my right hand goes right to that cutaway handle. It’s right there, just in case" and that's fine for Mr. Schoenfeld. I would say that few HP canopy pilots actually do that...even the ones who have already experienced high-speed spinners. Quote If it goes bad, do what you would always do, your EPs. But you are better prepared. The blood is staying up in your brain more. OK...we differ. If it goes bad, I'm not going to sit around practicing AGSM. While you are doing that, I'm already gone. That's what my current EPs tell me and that's what I will do. Quote Why would I care? Why would I post when it is not a threat to me? It very good that you do and my hat is off to you for thinking about ways to make skydiving safer. Quote Being able to hang in there maybe one more second (if better prepared) trying to pull the handle might make the difference between getting the handle pulled or not getting it pulled. Hanging in there "one more second" may put the situation out of your control. That's the problem. Quote In skydiving I keep hearing that people should work to manage the risks. If you "might" be exposed to a high G situation, you "might" want to know how to manage it better.....maybe.......Na. Agreed. If I was in a situation that allowed me to do it, it would be good to know how to do it, yes. And I think that is all you are saying...train for it in case you need it. Right? I wouldn't argue against that.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SethInMI 145 #33 February 1, 2012 stu, does this awesome mspaint image get close to your orientation during the spin? Thanks for posting the article by the way.It's flare not flair, brakes not breaks, bridle not bridal, "could NOT care less" not "could care less". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trae 1 #34 February 1, 2012 in reply to "In about one second I can take a partial breath and bear down (fighter pilot’s grunt) to help keep more of the blood in my brain. This will increase (to some degree) G tolerance. In all the mention of G related incapacitation talk, I have not noticed anyone mentioning using this technique to better manage the emergency. Is this ever brought up to students as something that might help them out? " ................................................. Good point you're making here. High G's DO happen in our sport, very good idea to know how to minimise the effects. Lately I've been subjected to some extended G's while a newish pilot was turning just a bit too sharply for just a bit too long. I noticed the heavy drinkers and smokers as well as a tandem passenger on the load taking it a bit tough. I remembered the grunt tactic and it worked . Thanks . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #35 February 1, 2012 Quote Good point you're making here. High G's DO happen in our sport, very good idea to know how to minimise the effects. Lately I've been subjected to some extended G's while a newish pilot was turning just a bit too sharply for just a bit too long. .... I remembered the grunt tactic and it worked . Thanks . It certainly worked for me when my brother took me for an aerobatics ride. 8.5 and the world got really small and dark. The good news was that there really IS a dim light at the end of the tunnel. My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
superstu 0 #36 February 1, 2012 lol, nice pic. yea that is how i was orientedSlip Stream Air Sports Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #37 February 1, 2012 Quotestu, does this awesome mspaint image get close to your orientation during the spin? Thanks for posting the article by the way. FYI: "NegativeG" has nothing to do with your picture. You are in acceleration if you are spiraling with a canopy in whatever position or orientation you have. "NegativeG" is what you feel on a glider or a roller-coaster when you are taken up and dropped.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pchapman 261 #38 February 1, 2012 Phoenix: The problem is that the article about Stu's incident suggests his face was exposed to negative G, due to the facial hemorrhaging. The difficulty is in figuring out how that happened in what is normally a positive G malfunction (unless you are upside down in your harness). The article postulates hyperextension of the neck -- head back like the MS Paint drawing. It is a bit of a stretch, so to speak, but what alternatives are there to explain the injuries? I had suggested head forward, although in the article Stu had reported being able to see the mal during the incident, which suggests head back. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
holie 0 #39 February 1, 2012 We should keep going "on the subject" and the definition from the Stu article was: "... When subjected to positive forces along the z-axis, blood is pulled from the head to the lower extremities. In negative G situations, blood is directed toward the head. ..." Simple that ;-) even if it would also not be my definition ;-) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
