what to tell a newbie who's already strapped a camera to their head?

[dustin19d 0]

Very good advice!!!

[aarco 0]

It sounds like our community has some good thoughts on this topic. One might look at it from many angles. There are many types of people out there that can do many things at once. A lot of natural fliers. But let us still put the line in the sand. We still need to be shown. Not everything. But we still need to be looked after and training-wheeled to a point. At what point that might be for someone to get up on the flying video juggling act, is up to - BSRs...DZO/S&TA etc,rules...Comfort level of fellow jumpers...And at the end of the day, you the jumper might not want to be flying camera so much if every time you land you can't remember what it was you where filming and you still have a full role of stills in your camera. Look to the ones that are doing it right. Find the right people at your DZ. You can also go to http://www.normankent.com/advice.htm
Here Norman talks not so much to the first photo flier, but he paints a great picture as to what you are about to get into and where it can take you. Later. AC

Having something never beats doing (>|<)
Iam building things - Iam working on my mind- I am going to change this world - its what I came here 4- - -

[brenthutch 383]

A newbie that showed up the the DZ with a camera on his head and one of our staff members had the guy put on his camera helmet he then took a piece of supention line and whiped it around a snag point on the helmet and started pulling the guy around the packing area yelling "WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO? WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO?" The guy cut away and deployed his reserve before removing his helmet and ended up dying in this senearo.

[cloud_monkey 0]

To begin with, you're probably not the one who should be explaining the situation to the person in question. Ask someone from the DZ Staff (preferably the DZO or an experienced camera guy) to talk to them and explain the dangers involved with jumping camera gear. Just telling them that it’s dangerous isn’t going to cut it; you have to explain why it’s dangerous too. Riser slaps and entanglements are one thing but what most new camera flyers don't realize in the beginning is that initially, their attention will be diverted from the skydive (altitude awareness, proximity to other skydivers, approach speeds, etc..) and focused on the camera gear or the video. And that can be quite dangerous for someone with little experience who isn’t prepared for it.

[fundgh 0]

Is there (should there be) a list of skills or abilities that one should possess before strapping a camera on their head? Like canopy flying or starting to freefly, some people are more capable at lower numbers than others, true or false? What would be on the list of things to practice or skills to have before flying with a camera?

...FUN FOR ALL!

[jose 0]

Ya know, looking back at your post, I realized that I have to object quite strongly. First of all, how can you even have a grasp at the many different operations of DZ's out there? At your jump numbers how can you have a "D" license pending? No offense, but at 150 jumps, you don't know shit, just as I didn't at 150 jumps. I still dont know as much as ALOT of flyers out there, but you sure as fuck dont know anything about my flying skills and under what capacity my DZ works. Hey, if your DZ wants to require all camera flyers and TI's have 1000 jumps, thats fine with me. BUT, in no way does your DZ set the standard for camera flying, the SIM's do for USPA flyers. Which is what I belong to, and am a "D" licensed flyer. And no, unlike yours, its not pending.

Speaking of the SIMS, Section 6-8, no where does it say that I should have 1000 jumps to fly camera, only 50 recent jumps with same equipment. Well, how does near 200 jumps suffice? Still not a shitload of jumps, but meets and exceeds the requirements by a longshot. The SIMS also speaks of knowledge of the both the camera flyer and instuctors abilities and communication. Since I only fly tandem camera at my own DZ, I can safely say that this isn't a problem. Hell, these same tandem masters were my PFF instuctors when I was a CSPA student.

So before you go and spout off with your limited experience, you might want to check others memberships affiliations and rules governing such. That could help you create your posts more educationally, and prevent that embarrassing hole under your nose from making such a stench.

[PhreeZone 15]

Relative Workshop has requirements of 500 jumps, a tandem rating or an AFF rating in order to fly with a tandem or video a tandem. Something else to keep in mind.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[nacmacfeegle 0]

Hey Phree, just out of interest, what happens if the camera flier hasn't got that level of experience and something untoward happens?
Or is this merely a recommendation?

--------------------

He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[freefalle 0]

I think its just a recommendation. However I think most tandem masters, are a bit particular about who they allow to lurk their tandems regardless of wether or not they have a camera strapped to their pumpkin.

[nacmacfeegle 0]

"However I think most tandem masters, are a bit particular about who they allow to lurk their tandems regardless of wether or not they have a camera strapped to their pumpkin."

And rightly so in my experience.

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He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[PhreeZone 15]

Well, technically RWS can pull the tandem ratings for the JM involved. Back when they still had the waivers and were experimental they could ground the rigs by using "testing outside the design envelope" as an excuse so DZO's were watching to make sure their entire DZ worth of tandem gear was'nt grounded. I never heard of this happening, just the rumor that it was possible.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[fundgh 0]

I think this thread got hijacked by the Tandem Chasing topic...

...FUN FOR ALL!

[jimmytavino 16]

be careful...damn careful..

.....Be considerate of EVERYone in the air with you, since most of them will NOT be looking at you,,, or watching out for you,,, since they should be concentrating on their skydive..
Secure , wear, or stow the camera helmet for every takeoff,...even if it is running.
Make sure that your batteries and tape are good to go....and your camera to helmet connection is appropriate and intact.
Keep your hands AWAY from the zoooom switch..
..( and don't bump it against the ceiling of the plane either) ....
and very important,,, be sure not to record over "that great video" you just shot,,,,because you failed to keep your tapes properly cued up.....
...Use an audible,,, and set it a bit high....use an altimeter too....( VERY helpful during the climb to altitude so that you are not caught by surprise with ...." Door!!! "...)
Forego the possible "great shot" whenever you are under canopy,,,,,, IF it means that you'll be distracted from traffic or from the approaching 'terra firma'...things can happen real quickly in skydiving....
...ask questions AND listen to the answers..
..Have fun but be safe...... .... Fly a SONY...
.............. o[:-) jmy

[cloud_monkey 0]

Quote

Is there (should there be) a list of skills or abilities that one should possess before strapping a camera on their head? Like canopy flying or starting to freefly, some people are more capable at lower numbers than others, true or false? What would be on the list of things to practice or skills to have before flying with a camera?

It looks like the advice here is coming from all directions and some of it seems pretty hostile. So let me try to explain this without insulting you for asking what I think is very good question. The most important thing is that you’re very comfortable with skydiving itself. In other words, you have good awareness of not only altitude, and approach speeds but you’re also aware of the other skydivers around you. You can track, slide, slip, and move in any direction without consciously thinking about the act itself. How many jumps you need before you reach that level of experience will vary with your own natural abilities.

Next, don’t strap on a Flat Top Pro with two video cameras, a 35mm, and a flash the first time you jump with camera gear. START SLOW! Get some help with your camera set-up so you can avoid common mistakes and creating unnecessary snag points and then get comfortable manipulating the camera controls on the ground with the thing mounted on your nut. If you’re going to jump a camera suit, make a few jumps with it before jumping it with the camera rig. It takes some practice to learn how to fly a camera suit and you want to be comfortable with it before adding the camera helmet. A good rule of thumb: only add one thing to your arsenal at a time and get comfortable and proficient with it before adding more cool stuff.

Secondly, jumping camera gear (especially in the beginning) adds a whole new dimension of potential dangers and distractions to your skydive. Besides the usual stuff that you’ll here at every DZ like entanglements and riser slaps, there’s stuff like checking out the position of the sun relative to your target, the looks on peoples faces, broken swoop cords, things knocking on the side of your helmet, things flapping in your field of view ( usually just a piece of gaffers tape or Velcro but you don’t know and you won’t know until your on the ground) your cameye freakin’ out and you’re wondering if the camera is on or not, wondering how you can check your altimeter without getting the fucking thing in frame, wondering if your shutter switch is working or not, wondering if the jackass that can’t dock on a formation under normal circumstances is going to clock you from behind at mach 2 – there are a TON of things that redirect your attention and you and have to learn how to deal with it all at once without moving your head and keeping your subject in frame. And yes, unfortunately, it takes a lot of practice to gain that experience. So start slow filming a friend goofing off until you can center your subject, accurately judge distances, and fall rate changes and so one. Once you’ve acquired some comfort and proficiency with that, then you’ll feel safe adding equipment and filming different types of skydives i.e. 4-Way, Tandems, Free Flyers, and so on.

I’m pretty sure that most of the camera guys on this site would agree with me that we all thought we knew what we were getting into before we did and, once we got into it we realized that there is a lot more to camera work, good camera work that is, then meets the eye.

One more piece of advice- Don’t look at your pilot chute when you toss it while wearing camera gear – if you get whacked while wearing an extra 10 to 15lbs on your skull and your head is turned sideways, there’s a good chance you’ll break your neck – trust me on this one. Pitch, wait and check – if you don’t slow down, you’ve got a problem.

Best of luck to you and Blue Skies,
Z

[ltdiver 3]

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Next, don’t strap on a Flat Top Pro with two video cameras, a 35mm, and a flash the first time you jump with camera gear. START SLOW!

How TRUE!

The very first time I strapped a camera helmet to my head and climbed out of a Caravan I thought my head was going to rip off...or it was going to drag me off the plane! And it was only a daBomb with a TRV8 in a dbox.

Now, over 1400 camera jumps later, I don't feel anything on my head that's dragging or unusual....just a normal climb out and launch. Even with the digital still camera added.

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[Kid_Icarus 0]

Question, two really. IS there a difference between camera flying, ring sights, for production/tandem, and just having a camera "On" while you jump, not trying to "Get the shot" but just recording the jump? I understand the safety issue, but was wondering on the efforts to "get the shot" instead of just letting the tape roll.

Second question, what about the little lip-stick cameras (literally that size) with a small camera on your chest strap (the size of a chest-mount pillow)? Just wondering what peoples thoughts were.

No I don't plan on jumping a camera, and you won't find one on my heard for years, but just wanted to get some feedback.

________________________________________
"What What.....

[freakfly24 0]

I just wanted to chime in on this.
I agree with the other experienced jumpers in this fourm. It does take a reasonable amount of time to get comfortable flying your own body and equipment to a point that you can make corrections in flight without over thinking about what to do. I have around 700 jumps. I am just now starting to feel comfortable enough with my own skills to be prepared enough to put on a camera and go fly. Prior to doing this I have been trying to exhaust all my resources ( i.e internet, fellow fliers, professional camera fliers, other experienced jumpes, and ect.) in an attempt to prepare myself for the task soon to be at hand. Flying camera is a task that should not be taken so lightly by newer jumpers. There is a really good quote to describe the actions of the unexperienced:

"Fools rush in where angels fear to tread"

[ltdiver 3]

First, if you do a search on these topics you'll find oodles of stuff on both these topics. The advise hasn't changed through the years. Human nature is human nature.

1) IMHO, there is no difference in flying for hire or 'just along for the ride'....except that in one you're getting paid, the other not. A distraction is just that, no matter if you go up thinking "I'll just let the tape roll".

2) I don't like separate lens/camera set-ups. Just one more thing to hang-up in a cutaway scenario. Ever heard of KISS? (Keep It Simple Stupid!). There are others who have differing opinions.

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[cloud_monkey 0]

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1) IMHO, there is no difference in flying for hire or 'just along for the ride'....except that in one you're getting paid, the other not.

That’s like saying there is no difference in going for a Sunday drive and driving a car for a sponsored race team. The difference is that one is a hobby and one is a job. It’s ok to suck at your hobby. It’s not ok to suck at your job. Any freakshow with a few jumps can strap on a POV cam on their head – that does not mean they can do it for a living. When the camera is just along for the ride there is no expectation of results. If someone pays you to capture their first skydive or any other skydive for that matter, there ARE expectations. You have to be able to deliver a quality product to a paying customer – BIG DIFFERENCE.

[ltdiver 3]

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1) IMHO, there is no difference in flying for hire or 'just along for the ride'....except that in one you're getting paid, the other not.

That’s like saying there is no difference in going for a Sunday drive and driving a car for a sponsored race team. The difference is that one is a hobby and one is a job. It’s ok to suck at your hobby. It’s not ok to suck at your job. Any freakshow with a few jumps can strap on a POV cam on their head – that does not mean they can do it for a living. When the camera is just along for the ride there is no expectation of results. If someone pays you to capture their first skydive or any other skydive for that matter, there ARE expectations. You have to be able to deliver a quality product to a paying customer – BIG DIFFERENCE.

I was stating the fact of safety and nothing else in my reply. Think about it. I was not inferring what you supposed and replied with. That is a different topic altogether and -not- what he was seeking advice for.

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[cloud_monkey 0]

Quote

Quote

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1) IMHO, there is no difference in flying for hire or 'just along for the ride'....except that in one you're getting paid, the other not.

That’s like saying there is no difference in going for a Sunday drive and driving a car for a sponsored race team. The difference is that one is a hobby and one is a job. It’s ok to suck at your hobby. It’s not ok to suck at your job. Any freakshow with a few jumps can strap on a POV cam on their head – that does not mean they can do it for a living. When the camera is just along for the ride there is no expectation of results. If someone pays you to capture their first skydive or any other skydive for that matter, there ARE expectations. You have to be able to deliver a quality product to a paying customer – BIG DIFFERENCE.

I was stating the fact of safety and nothing else in my reply. Think about it. I was not inferring what you supposed and replied with. That is a different topic altogether and -not- what he was seeking advice for.

ltdiver

Ok...I'll get off my soap box

[fundgh 0]

Is it your position then, that someone who is freeflying with a small integrated camera helmet has the same safety concerns as someone with a full rack of equipment who's objective is to get video and stills of the jump? I don't want to leave any stones unturned. People need to know what they are getting into.

...FUN FOR ALL!

[ltdiver 3]

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Is it your position then, that someone who is freeflying with a small integrated camera helmet has the same safety concerns as someone with a full rack of equipment who's objective is to get video and stills of the jump? I don't want to leave any stones unturned. People need to know what they are getting into.

Why are people trying to dumb down the safety conserns by nit-picking?

Distraction in -any- form is a safety consern for all involved....not -just- the cameraflyer.

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[RevJim 0]

Quote

Is there (should there be) a list of skills or abilities that one should possess before strapping a camera on their head? Like canopy flying or starting to freefly, some people are more capable at lower numbers than others, true or false? What would be on the list of things to practice or skills to have before flying with a camera?

I find it strange that Quade hasn't chimed in to this thread yet, so I thought I'd link to his website. Best recomendations I've ever read.

By reading this page, combined with starting jumping a wingsuit, I decided to take the cameras off for a bit. It's good advice, follow it.

http://www.futurecam.com/beginningCameraFlying.html

It's your life, live it!
Karma
RB#684 "Corcho", ASK#60, Muff#3520, NCB#398, NHDZ#4, C-33989, DG#1

[ltdiver 3]

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By reading this page, combined with starting jumping a wingsuit, I decided to take the cameras off for a bit.

Well, with 2 jumps I'd -hope- you'd make this wise decision.

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon