A picture is worth . . . ?

[blazetailman 0]

I'm getting in this thread much later than I wish. I'm on assignment in Palau, in the South Pacific for 3 more weeks. I would have loved to get in a few professional ethics and standardsin on this one.

So on that, let me chime in a few quick points.

1)The first and biggest thing to kill an industry is price undercutting.

2)The skydiving indusrty is makeing money, not a lot but they are. Don't kid yourself about it. They have equipment. cars and bills that are paid for.

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I think the orginal post is very much about the rates and ethics of usage of the images in the sport. The rates need an increase, publishers and advertisiers need to accept that rates of "quality" images will go up. We can't stop the use of images for less than standard rates, but if they want quality shots for pros, we need to come to a number that is closer to a modern living rate.

The look of skydiving is really still in the 80s. Ads and magazines are behind main stream design and trends. Part of this reason is the use of amatuer art. The last year I'ves seen some great ads and pictures. Things are changing for the better and some of the design and photo work is outstanding.

It's not hard to translate the increase cost. We all balance that out every day. My cost go up when processing goes up, or the such. That's business and the selling and buying of photos is business.

If someone approches me for a photo and the negotitions start, I have my walk away price. I let them know I have cost and overhead I have to meet and those are my costs to produce quality work.

What needs attention is the person, who undercuts a professional job. the ole"i can do it for cheaper"

You pay for what you get.

A professional who has experience to get the shot and

Its up to us and no one else to sell our photos. The more I go out and push my work the more successful I will be.

My advive to someone thinking they want to get into selling there photos for money. Do some research on professional ethics. Your attitude reflects a lot of people.

www.canopyflightcenter.com
www.skydivesac.com
www.guanofreefly.com

[LouDiamond 1]

Just food for thought. Take a look at the current Backpacker Gear guide on page 47. One full color page of a woman in freefall with a corny caption of "she'll jump once but watch the video many times" for Visa card. The picture isn't anything special or even artistically pleasing just a woman in freefall smiling at the camera. Now you can bet someone got paid for that shot and if it's any indicator of the general marketing industry using skydiving pictures, I think fair market value or the industry standard is a must in this case. Settling for peanuts in this case just doesn't make sense to me.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[TroyK 0]

An excellent link on model releases:
http://www.danheller.com/model-release.html

Great discussion, BTW. Thanks for bringing this up, Paul. I actually found this thread after doing a google search to try and find the difference between "transitional" and "target" rates as used in the editorialphoto.com use fee estimation software. I had planned to start a thread on it, and, lo and behold, another skydiver beat me to the punch :)

For those interested, the difference is that "transitional" is the fee that an inexperienced negotiator might expect when negotiating with a magazine who is negotiating "in good faith", whereas the "target" rate is what an experienced negotiator would likely get.

Check out this pdf for more explanation as to the rationalle behind the rates reflected by the estimator: http://www.fotography.net/estimatorguide150.pdf

As for where I come down on this issue... I don't make my living in photography, but at the same time, I don't want to make it harder for those that do by undercutting their pricing. I think that compensation for images, be they for editorial or commercial use, needs to reflect the additional risk and expense that a skydiving photographer assumes.

I would like to see the magazines move towards a compensation model more in line with the rates calculated at editorialphoto.com. When you think about how many images are actually published in the magazine, it doesn't represent a significant increase in their costs to use the photos.

The benefit? Photographers get paid more what they're worth, and the quality of pictures in the magazines (which, after all, plays a significant role in driving their ad revenue) goes up.

TroyK

"Free your mind, and your ass will follow" - George Clinton

[Tinkerbelle 5]

Some evil guy in Reno sold some naked pictures of me with rich guys' airplanes for 1000$/each. I didn't get a single penny, nor did I sign the release form he sent me! Wish I'd had the money to sue him! I wish I could hire someone to break into his place and get the negatives, but his place is boobie trapped, and it would be life threatening! Just goes to show you, you can sell anything for anything to anyone, just depends on how dishonest and greedy you are!
Tink

Rehab is for quitters.

[quade 3]

Well, that's probably not the way to go about it.

If he doesn't have a model release you could easily sue him and I'm guessing that a lawyer would do it on a contingency basis.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[quade 3]

Bump.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Zee 0]

I'm sorry but I really have to chime in here - Is there no separation between a true "Professional" photographer and the rest of us mere mortals? How many people haven't you seen who have gone out and purchased a 10D without having the slightest clue of how to operate the damned thing or even a minute understanding of basic photography?

The first thing they do is post this question " I just bought this camera and I was just wondering what settings y'all use in freefall??? The next thing you know, they have a site on Shutterfly filled with off center and out of focus pictures and now they're a "professional" and they have to protect their images and their "rights" and they want the big $$$$ for their so called "art". What a crock.

I'm not saying that I'm a pro at this photography thing but I DO know and understand the basics and even some more advanced concepts of photography and I most certainly understand how to set up, sight in, and operate my own gear. I've made enough money from shooting tandem videos on the weekends to pay for all of my photo gear and skydiving gear many times over and yes, I too have received the ridiculously small checks from Parachutist for published work.

I do this work for personal satisfaction and because I truly enjoy being able to give back something to a sport that I've loved for many years (not to mention that I can't even remember the last time I paid for a jump ticket). I don't send in pictures to Parachutist or Skydiving Magazine because I need the cash - I do it because it's fun to share some very unique moments with others who share my love for the sport.

Real professional photographers have issues to deal with when it comes time to sell their work for fair market value because they have managed to acquire a talent that allows them to do this for a living and that's something I truly respect.

As for myself, I'm just happy that I've found a weekend job that pays for all of my jumps and all of my gear and in the end, still leaves me with money left over to pay for my trip to Rantoul.
Just my two cents -

Peace and Blue Skies,

Mike Zban

Action©Sports

[DLB 0]

OK, I'm one of those who's just bought a Digital Rebel. I've very little experience in cameraflying (100 jumps) and have only two jumps with the stills. I have got an average knowledge of photography and was able to capture some good shots (shown on another thread). There is a huge temptation to hand these round for free just to get the attention. They might even be used in an article in UK's Skydive Mag to promote the even I was at.

How would you all suggest I progress with my stills photography? I'm wanting to get into team video and Tandem jumping which would be dictated by the DZ but for fun jumps or for people requesting photos how should I proceed?

-----------------------------------------------
"It's always a nice day above the clouds"

[Zee 0]

Hey DLB,

First off, learn to use your equipment properly and effectively. There's no shame in coming down with a roll of mediocre pictures as long as you can understand what you need to change and adjust in order to make your work better.

Second, don't expect people to pay you a bunch of money so you can learn your craft on their skydive - It ain't right. What you can do is find people (a starting 4-way team is always a good one) who will cover the cost of your jumps if you'd like to practice filming theirs - I did that for quite some time and it's a GREAT way to learn.

If you want to learn how to shoot tandem video, ask some of the experienced video guys to give you some tips and teach you about the dangers involved with shooting tandems (there are many you haven't even thought of yet). Then ask the S&TA for permission to film some tandems at your own expense. Once you've got the S&TA's permission it's time to talk to the DZO and then finally, the Tandem Master. All of these people have to feel comfortable with you and your prior experience before they'll ever let you near a tandem.

Many times they'll make you do a few practice runs without camera gear just so you can show them you are as safe and capable as you say you are. After that they'll usually let you shoot some tandems at your own expense. See how this works - Once again, they won't pay for you to learn the trade, the money comes once you've learned enough to produce a product that will sell. The same goes for the pictures - Don't expect to cash in while your still learning the basics - show some good will and make a few friends - Once you've figured out how to produce some quality pictures people will happily pay to get a few copies.

As for shooting fun jumps - you'll figure out what your work is worth eventually. Personally, I like to film fun jumpers but I usually keep the stills myself. I still enjoy shooting slide film and it's not cheap so If they want some copies I'm more than happy to sell them. Often, I'll give one or two away just because it makes me happy to do so.

Don't get so hung up on the money thing just yet. If you practice and get good with the video and photography thing the money will come. For now I would seriously consider handing out a few copies and making a few friends.
Peace,
Z

Action©Sports

[jdhill 0]

Since you bumped it, I'll throw out a question for the group...

A photographer follows a team out to snap a few shots, they come out pretty good. The team likes them, and asks if they can send them in to their sponsor. The photographer says sure, but if they (the sponor) want to use them for anything they need to talk to the photographer first.

A few months go by and the photo shows up in an ad for said sponsor, with no prior consent from the photographer...

The sponsor and photographer have a conversation, followed by several emails, to which there have been no response... the ad is still running.

What does the photographer do?

J

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke

[quade 3]

Quote

What does the photographer do?

Depends on the relationships he wants to maintain.

Checks take time to be cut - sometimes a couple of months. So, ya gotta keep that in mind. Fortunately, you have all the evidence you need - right? (The original images and the published works.)

Are you getting free gear from the manufacturer? No? Compensated in any way from the manufacturer? No? Then consider at least a cease and desist letter. You're not going to see a dime any sooner, but at least you can stop them from screwing you by threatening legal action. Then, if you really think it's worth your time, energy and money -- sue them for Copyright infringement. It's a pretty serious deal and a slam dunk in the court as long as you have proof you shot the images. It's going to take a lawyer on your part, so, you really have to consider how much it would be worth.

As for the team . . . I doubt any of them are devious enough to actually be in some conspiracy to rip you off, but I probably wouldn't jump stills with them any more without some sort of agreement. And, obviously it probably goes without saying that you're not going to be giving them any more photos for free.

Let them know that some things are personal and some things are business -- this is just business.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[chachi 0]

hey Zee, the bottom line is they are producing images. Maybe they should not be full price but they should be selling them, and not giving them away for free. NO ONE SHOULD GIVE THEIR IMAGES FOR FREE, especially when we know every other aspect of the magazine or whatever is being paid top dollar. Graphic design, layout, these all get paid for and the photographer gets ripped off. Happens all the time.

~Chachi

[Zee 0]

What's up Chachi -

I understand and agree with the fact that we are the ones who make all of the sacrifices and take all of the risks involved in capturing these images and it's only fair that we receive fair compensation when a major publication wants to publish our work. Fully understandable and even more so when dealing with advertising.

But let's be realistic here. Take DLB's pics that he posted - He said that he's tempted to hand some around just for the attention - What's wrong with that? Look at those images and tell me he'd be better off waiting for Sports Illustrated to knock down his door?

I've been doing this a while now and one thing I've found out for sure; I get more satisfaction out of certain pictures by giving them away than I'll ever get out of the checks I get from Parachutist.

Peace,
Z

Action©Sports

[chachi 0]

I actually have no problem giving your friends pictures, you can do whatever you want. What I am talking about is any client type situation. If you give a tandem your pictures for free you devalue that service at your dz. If you give a magazine a picture for free, you continue to support it and they don't want to pay for it. We are already in that situation when even skydivers come to this board and ask for images for a magazine for photo credit. I just have a policy, unless it is my friend I never give it away, at least charge something, your cost? whatever. Just try and not contribute to this problem. This stuff happens to even regular photographers all the time, we being even more specialized should be chaging.

~Chachi

[Brains 2]

Quote

What does the photographer do?

Tell the team no more free pics. Hopefully they will understand that it is business and it won't ruin your relationship with them or the dz. And if it is the team and manuf. that i am thinking of that really sucks cause that ad is running everywhere now.

Never look down on someone, unless they are going down on you.

[Zee 0]

So if I send in a picture to Parachutist I'm contributing to the demise of the professional photographer? What professional photographer relies on a freelance income provided by Parachutist? For starters, Parachutist is a MEMBERSHIP PUBLICATION. It only exists to inform and share information with it's members. Do you see Parachutist on the shelf in the grocery store or the airport news stand? Does Parachutist sell more copies when a cover shot is provided by the likes of Mike McGowan, Norman Kent, or Tony Hathaway? The answer is a resounding NO. Comparing Parachutist with large volume commercial magazines is simply ridiculous.

In the case of advertisers and commercial publications I totally agree that the photographer should be fairly compensated for their work. But let me ask you this - How often do you see a skydiving picture in a magazine other than the industry related ones? The answer is not very often at all. The market just ain't that big.

In addition, if I were Josh Hill, I'd be mighty pissed off. Nobody has the right to take your work and design a half page ad around it without your prior consent. It may take months to cut a check but why would you get the impression that that was their intention when you didn't even negotiate compensation prior to the ad being published? I wouldn't threaten with a law suit just yet but, if they continue to ignore your e-mails and phone calls you should definitely move forward with some form of legal action. Otherwise they'll get the idea that it's ok to do it again.



Peace,
Z

Action©Sports

[lewmonst 0]

This thread is too important to photographers to let fall off the radar screen. With so many new camera flyers running around with digital rebels, lets all try to remember our worth here and not undercut eachother. If anything, talk to the other camera flyers at your dz so everyone has the same basic rate*. We'll never pay off our cameras if we keep doing people favors. And don't ever let any television show "use" your footage for nothing or close to nothing.

*edit to add, since that confused someone, i meant same basic rate for the same quality of the same type of photo or video. There are obviously different types of camera work which would draw different prices. I'm not saying price fixing, I'm just saying camera flyers should talk to eachother.

peace
lew

http://www.exitshot.com

[psw097 0]

Hm, price fixing - you don't see that in print every day. Maybe unionize and call for a nationwide walkout until better pay and chiropractor visits are standard. Its worked for.....well, no one lately.

[Deuce 1]

Quote

And don't ever let any television show "use" your footage for nothing or close to nothing.

How much per minute for a show like Discover, History, or Travel Channel?

[lewmonst 0]

Quote

Hm, price fixing - you don't see that in print every day. Maybe unionize and call for a nationwide walkout until better pay and chiropractor visits are standard. Its worked for.....well, no one lately.

That's not what I meant. I just meant to encourage camera flyers to talk to eachother and not make it a secret.

Really I just was prompted to bump this thread up because of the other thread: Looking for Footage...

peace
lew

http://www.exitshot.com

[lewmonst 0]

Quote

Quote

And don't ever let any television show "use" your footage for nothing or close to nothing.

How much per minute for a show like Discover, History, or Travel Channel?

Good question. Can anyone here speak to this, having sold/licensed footage for these shows?

I know Jason Bell has some good stories about dealing with TV shows wanting to license footage...

peace
lew

http://www.exitshot.com

[Deuce 1]

Quote

I know Jason Bell has some good stories about dealing with TV shows wanting to license footage...

I have heard some of those, and some stories that Greg Gasson has shared. Problem is, I doubt even those guys put their first broadcast footage out at union scale.

There is a difference between footage that a camera flier has "in the can" and stuff they go up to get under the direction of a production manager for a TV show.

Quade? I'm also curious about the reasonable fee to charge for the actual directed jumps, and then the fee to ask for broadcast seconds (or whatever the industry standard unit is).

[quade 3]

$700 per minute with a 1 minute minimum is not unreasonable to pay for -stock- footage.

Obviously everyone sets their own rates, but take a look at some stock footage rates from other stock footage houses and you'll get an idea of what is possible and what people should expect to pay.

http://www.inthewildproductions.com/footagerates.htm
http://www.weathervine.com/stockvideo.html
http://www.encountervideo.com/rates.htm

You can google others.

Directed footage should go for -quite- a bit more.

No, you probably won't get any residuals (money for multiple plays) unless you appear in the footage as talent and there's some sort of union agreement.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Deuce 1]

Thanks very much, Paul. That's really helpful.

JP

[The111 0]

Replying to a very old thread that I just read for the first time.

I think it's funny that most new camera flyers are told by "pros" (or whoever they go to for advice) that they should expect to do some work for free because their skills will not be worth money yet. But then the same "pros" who gave them this advice will be unhappy about beginners doing work for free and underselling them. Not pointing fingers at anybody in specific, but I have seen this happen. Truth is, beginners with no skills can come up with some pretty cool footage/photos sometimes.

I put cameras on my head for fun, the same reason I put a parachute on my back.

Although I did just get my first check from a mag and as pointed out in this thread, it is not much.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com