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bigfritz

When to start flying with a camera?

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I was just mounting my Pro-Dytter onto my BG Guner helmet and I was thinking about my Sony DCR-TRV-27. It doesn't cost anything to run and I barley use it so I was wondering how many jumps I should have before I jump with a camrea? I currently have 42 jumps.

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Freefly, baby.

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I am also thinking of that soon. I have herd from some to wait until 500, others said around 100 should be ok. I don't want to mount still camera for awhile but I do want to put on a little camcorder. I am also curious to peoples opinions on this, mainly people who have been flying camera for awhile.

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200 at a minimum is the recommendation in the SIM. You won't find any reputable camera flyer that recommends anything less then that.

There is a lot more to jumping a camera then just screwing it on and hitting record. Cameras are major distractions and you won't find a single camera flyer out there that has'nt gone low since they were worrying more about the video or have gotten themself into a tight spot simply since they were filming.

You should be at an advanced level of the decipline that you want to film before you put a camera on. If you want to film freefly you better be rock solid in a sit and HD. Trying to learn HD with 5 pounds on the side of your head directing you all around is one of the worst ideas ever.

I hope you mounted the Pro-dyter inside the Gunner or else there is a high probibility that you will be buying another one shortly after the riser removes that one from the helmet.
Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

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200 at a minimum is the recommendation in the SIM. You won't find any reputable camera flyer that recommends anything less then that.

There is a lot more to jumping a camera then just screwing it on and hitting record. Cameras are major distractions and you won't find a single camera flyer out there that has'nt gone low since they were worrying more about the video or have gotten themself into a tight spot simply since they were filming.

You should be at an advanced level of the decipline that you want to film before you put a camera on. If you want to film freefly you better be rock solid in a sit and HD. Trying to learn HD with 5 pounds on the side of your head directing you all around is one of the worst ideas ever.

I hope you mounted the Pro-dyter inside the Gunner or else there is a high probibility that you will be buying another one shortly after the riser removes that one from the helmet.



Thx for the info man, I will wait awhile!

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Post a poll in Gear and Rigging and see how many people have lost their dytter.. its higher then you might think. And they usually lost them on a flat surface, not the wide extruded on a Gunner. Also note a lot of people have them ziptied on now.

It makes me mad to see people jumping with potentially letal projectiles on the outside of their helmet and not taking every procaution to minimze the risk to people on the ground. >:(
Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

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Also note a lot of people have them ziptied on now.


My pro-dytter came with a mount and 2 zip ties for both sides of the mount.



So did mine, especially noticeable when it went past my face at 5000ft as the riser took it off. Oh, same thing at 2500ft when the front of my camera was taken off.

If there is a better place to put it, which reduces the likelyhood of snagging or losing, then use it.

Why do you think we switched to internal pockets for audibles?

Think about it and listen to the advice. Just cos it hasn't happened doesn't mean it wont.........;)

Bryn
Journey not destination.....

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Why would you mount it on the outside when there's a internal pocket?!! I also have lost a pro-track from the pimp-mindwarp. You might make hundreds of jumps and not loose it but why take that risk.


The only people who currently make helmets with external mounts are skysystems and bonehead for the Havok. The skysystems helmets have recessed pockets to keep the riser strike off the dytters

As far as your question about when to start with the camera, remember you now have a high risk of getting something tangled on your head. Last summer a cameraman with 3000 jumps had a line caught on his helmet and couldn't get free. Now that can happen to anyone, but just remember you're adding one more problem in the mix.
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- Does this small canopy make my balls look big? - J. Hayes -

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Also note a lot of people have them ziptied on now.


My pro-dytter came with a mount and 2 zip ties for both sides of the mount.



I think he meant an extra ziptie to keep the pro-track in the mount. I have mine secured with a velcro band.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

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Most poeple need 3 or 4 zip ties to keep their Dytter on. 2 to put the mount on the helmet and another 1 or 2 to keep the dytter in the mount. My plastic mount cracked after only a mont of use. Luckly mine was inside a pocket so it could'nt go anywhere.
Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

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In my opinion there's no jump no. you have to have before you're able to jump cam! It all depends on your personal skills and training. Get an experienced cam flyer / instructor at your dz to give you a good briefing, go through all possible dangers and emergency procedures (entanglement, etc.) and if people tell you you're not ready to jump with a camera then ask why not and work on that.

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200 at a minimum is the recommendation in the SIM. You won't find any reputable camera flyer that recommends anything less then that.



You do presume a bit much with such a superlative statement. I agree with USPA's recommendations as to have a "D" license before adding the complication factor of jumping with a video camera, or still camera. There is no substitute for experience.

With that said, there is more to gaining experience than strictly jump numbers.

Case in point: Your DZ has a "D" license requirement to land on the airport. You go out and make 100 hop and pops to go along with the 100 you already have to get your numbers up, take all the tests and you are a "D" license holder. Does that mean you know everything you need to know about aircraft traffic patterns, the heat generated by black asphalt and what it does to your canopy, landing when a plane is taxiing etc. etc. NO! You need to study the situation you are about to subject yourself to, and get the experience you need. You need to study and learn from reputable sources (DZO, S&TA, Instructors, etc.) and not a “skydiving teen” on their way up.

If you were to do a poll of when some highly experienced camera flyers started jumping cameras you may be quite surprised as to the result. I started jumping a camera at 74 jumps and Mini-DV did not exist back then. The cameras were HUGE and very heavy for the most part and the gear was very different. I know of a bunch of others (I wont mention their names) that started at that level as well. I am in no way recommending that people go out and try when I did, rather I am recommending they ask what they need to learn to survive and then they learn it.

Having a mentor that has the experience to teach them what they need to know is more important than just jump numbers. If someone has trouble with altitude awareness or stability weather they have 60 jumps or 300 the advice that they would get form a reputable camera flyer is the same "You are not ready yet" etc. But I would hope that just because they reach their "D" license they do not assume they are ready to "give it a go"! The reverse may be true in some cases, just as they may be ready to learn prior to having their D. It depends on the individual, the skills they poses, and their willingness to listen and learn.

The most important advice I could give a fledgling video person is simple. Never "Assume" anything… Ask! Seek out the knowledge from reputable sources of everything that can and does happen. Have that reputable source go over the gear you intend on jumping well before you show up at the DZ to jump it. Lastly "Know your cameras inside and out" before you intend on jumping them.

Education will save your life and others.

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There is a lot more to jumping a camera then just screwing it on and hitting record. Cameras are major distractions and you won't find a single camera flyer out there that has'nt gone low since they were worrying more about the video or have gotten themself into a tight spot simply since they were filming.



I've never gone low or gotten in a tight spot because I was filming.


peace
lew
http://www.exitshot.com

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This was 2001 where 3 of 32 fatalities where directly related to lines entangling with helmet/camera.
From here

Three jumpers have died this year when an entanglement occurred in some way with their helmet/camera combination. Two entanglements were with the main during/after a malfunction+cutaway, and one was with the reserve bridle after a cutaway. Only the person in the latter situation manage to remove the helmet before impact. If you jump with a camera helmet which has any snag points (such as a ring-sight, or camera mounting bracket) you are taking a substantial additional risk. If you further do not have some type of quick release, you are adding even more risk. At a minimum, you should have, built in to your malfunction plan, the intention of removing your helmet in case of an entanglement. Of course, this slows down your malfunction procedure, so deploying slightly higher in general is probably necessary to keep this from adding more risk as well. Weigh your options, think carefully, and consider modifying your helmet to reduce the chance of snags in the first place.


I also could swear that in looking this kind of stuff up months ago I found a quote that indicated as a group camera flyers account for a disproportionate number of fatalities.

Just because it hasn't happened to you doesn't mean it doesn't happen or won't happen.


"Truth is tough. It will not break, like a bubble, at a touch; nay, you may kick it about all day like a football, and it will be round and full at evening."
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes

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Just because it hasn't happened to you doesn't mean it doesn't happen or won't happen.



Shawn,
this much i do know very well. My point was just to Phreezone that it's innapropriate for him to make blanket statements about every camera flyer.
I knew personally one of those fatalities you are refering to.
And i know too well that shit can happen...

peace
lew
http://www.exitshot.com

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Michael --

With the recent "upgrade" to the USPA licensing structure also came a slight change in the USPA recommendations for camera flying. Currently and among other things, including seeking guidance from more experienced skydivers, they recommend 200 jumps and "C" license.

For the entire SIM section on camera flying recommendations, see: http://uspa.org/publications/SIM/2004SIM/section6.htm#68
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

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Oops, I knew they were going to change the requirements for a "D" soon. Thanks Paul!

But as for the 200 jumps specifically I do not see where that is a recomendation in the new SIM. Section 6-8 states two things (that I see). "A USPA C license is recommended." and "The jumper should have made at least 50 recent jumps on the same parachute equipment to be used for camera flying." Can you show me where it states 200 jumps?

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The 200 jumps is a requirement for the C License, so, obviously if they recommend you have a C License, they recommend you have at least 200 jumps.

I simply restate the jump numbers for those that may have not connected the dots on that.

Current licensing requirements here:

http://uspa.org/publications/SIM/2004SIM/section3.htm#31e
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

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Just adding my point of view. I recently started jumping a camera and I aggressively sought and heeded to advice from experienced camera fliers. Their experience is invaluable. Personally, I went so far as to conduct ground training with an individual I respected and trusted and waited for him to say he thought I was ready. I started jumping the camera around 200 jumps. I conducted training in the suspended harnass for emergency procedures with the camera.....significant difference from without a camera. You must be comfortable with your emergency procedures with the camera. I evaluate every jump I plan to take the camera and stay well within my limitations. I always remember that other people's lives depend on my actions, not just mine. There is a lot to think about, getting the shot in frame, position of the sun, your position relative to a formation or another skydiver, exit sequence, breakoff plan, emergency procedures, and on and on. Experience fliers make it look easy......it ain't. Don't get in a rush. Again, I have very limited experience, but just wanted to add my perspective. I'm still learning, but I'm still taking it very slow, staying within my limitations. Establish guidelines for yourself.....stick to them.....be safe.
Nathan
Blues,
Nathan

If you wait 'til the last minute, it'll only take a minute.

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For one, I disconnected my RSL, not that makes any difference in procedure, but because of additional snag possibilities, that's the choice I made.

Procedures before were make decision, look, grab, pul, pull

With the camera, it's make decision, look, grab, pull, ensure snags clear, if clear pull,

if not clear, clear snag (hook knife) then pull

if still not clear cutaway helmet, pull

Of course, keeping in mind must maintain altitude awareness and not pass through hard deck without deployment, if all else fails get nylon out.

So the main, difference is dealing with potential snags, not that those aren't possible without the camera, but are more likely with the camera.

Nathan
Blues,
Nathan

If you wait 'til the last minute, it'll only take a minute.

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