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jdhill

So you want to video tandems...

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This started over in the General forum (here).
What do you think are the minum requirements that a jumper should have before being able to do tandem video?

My thoughts... 500 jumps, 100 video jumps (not FF with a camera, dedicated video), and some demonstrated skills (exits, flying under a subject, landing accuracy, etc).

What are you thoughts?

Josh
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke

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Surely the only question is whether you're safe? Getting a decent video isn't really part of the equation.

My thoughts? Approval from the TM who needs to know who you are. If I were the TM and I didn't know you it wouldn't matter how many jumps, how many dedicated video jumps or how many demonstrated skills you had I'd be very unlikely to invite you along.

Gus
OutpatientsOnline.com

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Most of the time it is not a matter of an invite... if you have a tandem staff and a video staff, you may not get to pick and choose who you jump with. So how does the operator of a video concession set some guidelines for evaluating a potential staff member's qualifications?

If you use some manufacturer's guidelines (although they admit they did not have video in mind when drafted - but they are still there) you need a rating.

IMO, There needs to be something more quantifiable than "I know you and your pretty safe, so let's go"; but more realistic than needing a rating.

Josh
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke

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Fair point. If you're operating a video concession then you're making that "I know you and your pretty safe, so let's go" decision on behalf of the TMs so you need to know the cameraman, preferably you've jumped with him and at the very least they've come with a recommendation from someone you trust. The skydiving community is small enough that you'll probably know someone that knows the new guy. If in doubt take him out on some kind of evaluation jump?

Gus
OutpatientsOnline.com

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Surely the only question is whether you're safe? Getting a decent video isn't really part of the equation.



I would say getting a decent video is definately part of the equation. But we all have to start somewhere. I started lurking with tandems at a safe distance. Then after many video jumps (maybe 200, mixed freefly, RW), I started practicing video of Tandem's on jumps with experienced passengers. And after many practice video jumps, I slowly got comfortable to be close enough to get a good video. Once you've proven you are safe, with practice and familiarity with the TI, it is all about getting a good video.

peace
http://www.exitshot.com

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At some busier DZ's there is a fairly constant stream of new video guys/gals that want to get in the tandem rotation, either home grown or from other DZ's... Where is the point that it is worth the time to give them an eval jump or tell them, "Sorry, come back when you have xyz"?

Josh
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke

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I know people out videoing tandems that can't get an exit count right, that can barely fly themselves to the tandem to get them in frame, but since they have a camera and are willing to do it they are allowed to video tandems.

In addition to just being a safe flyer I think people filming tandems need to have a basic understanding of a tandem system and how a tandem skydive works. A lot of AFF people have never felt the trapdoor effect of a tandem or even know why they need to avoid it at pull time on some rigs. I've seen a very experienced videographer get low on a tandem and about get kicked at pull time when the tandem droped towards them.

I like min of 250 jumps, at least 50 with camera and at least 25 of those RW over the top jumps. If you can't hang on top of a formation and shoot decent video you have no business playing with a tandem. Plus I'd like to see a briefing structure that covers all the things they need to know about the tandem system including some of the mals that they can see externally (like a pin about to pop or other simple things) plus what they need to do if the tandem gets in trouble and how to avoid getting the TM in trouble.
Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

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make all the rules you want, jump #'s ect, as soon as at dz is short handed in video, they take anyone who has a camera strapped to their head seen it way to many time at every dz I have ever worked for, funny how the "rules" fly right out the window for the dollar!

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I've seen it to, with less than popular results... IMO its better to have no video go out the door than one that looks like s**t go out and represent the DZ poorly (and drive future business to a competitor)...

I've also seen places push the concession to have so many full time camera staff so that on the rare occasion that they need 5 videos on one load they can do it... the rest of the time when there is 1 or 2, there are alot of camera folks sitting on the ground making no $$$.

Josh
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke

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I think that there needs to be a jump minnimum, but on top of that the jumper should be able to pass a skills eval. One idea is for the wannabe video guy to film an experienced camer flyer wearing a camera suit. The experienced jumper could present some reasonable changes in fall rate, a little sliding around, maybe screw up the exit count, the usual stuff. If the jumper can stay with him, and film the whole thing, he passes to shoot video. Sure it would cost $50 (two slots + a few bucks for the base), but you could make that back in an hour shooting tandem video. In comparison to the cost of a tandem or AFF rating, it's a bargain. Of course I'm opposed to the idea of a video "rating", this is idea is a way for the prudent DZO or consession operator to qualify an up and coming camera flyer. The other idea is that the DZO could buy the existing camera guys some back up rigs, hire an editor, and just get the experienced guys on every load......

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It's a tough one. Jump #'s don't mean much really. A person could have 1000 jumps, but 900 of them be CRW - how much will that help with Tandem video.

Before I videod a Tandem, I had probably chased 50, and learned the ideosyncrasies of how they fly. I would ALWAYS leave early to make sure I was NEVER above them, and for the first 10 or 20, I wouldn't get closer than 10 or 15 feet. As I got more competent I started docking on the passenger, orbiting around, etc. By the time I actually had the opportunity to video one, our tm's were totally comfortable with my ability to fly safely and closely to a tandem.

Seems like a logical progression to me.

By the way, I did have over 500 jumps before I strapped a camera to my head.

Canuck

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I like min of 250 jumps, at least 50 with camera and at least 25 of those RW over the top jumps. If you can't hang on top of a formation and shoot decent video you have no business playing with a tandem.



This is where I was at when I started. Exactly. So, I'm a proficient camera flyer and I get good tandem video. As of today I have 455 jumps, 260 with video, about 100 tandems.

I had to lurk my video concession owner, and then lurk some tandems and AFF, and then I shot video of tandems where the instructor was comfortable with me out there. I sold some of the "spec" video, and once I was consistently getting exits, close ups, and openings, I was allowed into the rotation. I'm still on the JV, cause the other camera flyers have over 6000 jumps each, but I'm an accepted member of the team by the other camera flyers and the tandem masters.

Most of the tandem masters were good coaches too. They are used to seeing where the camera flyer is supposed to be, and would signal "lower, closer" to help out at first. I get three or four a week now on the weekends, when it warms up I'll get up to 10 a day.

JP

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This is a great question! I find myself in an interesting situation. The DZ where I have shot video at closed its doors last weekend. I found myself at a new DZ about 2 hours away from my home. The DZO welcomed myself and the other fun jumpers with open arms (much better reception than the cessna dz less than 1 mile from my home). When I asked if they needed video for tandems they told me there is a 500 jump min. and other requirements. I felt that was a much better than just being told "sure... we would love to have you, can you make the next load?" I think both safety and performance are important. If your un-safe people get hurt and thats bad for the DZ. If your performance is bad, then thats bad advertising for the DZ. Both are of the same importance.

Pendejo

HE WHO SWOOPS THE DITCH.... OH WAIT... THAT PLACE IS NO-LONGER THERE....

Pendejo

He who swoops the ditch and does not get out buys the BEER!!

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Unless the DZO doesn't care about how his operation is represented through the tandem videos that are sold and just wants to make the extra $$$ off of crap video. Unfortunate that some jumpers will play along with this game.

At the DZ I jump at, there is no jump # standard; some of our video guys have 2000+ jumps, one had 600 or so when he got into the tandem rotation, but he's good. I believe the standard is 10 sec. to catch the tandem and then 18 sec. of in-frame footage, jumping from a Cessna from 10,500'.

Is this a fairly common standard? Hope so - hosing first-timers that don't know better with crummy video seems terribly unfair.

Martin

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What do you think are the minum requirements that a jumper should have before being able to do tandem video ??

Josh



:)"outside of yourself".... We all begin our jumping career with a "Me, Me,Me" approach to the sport..
And Yes at the begining we must concentrate on ourselves,,, since our destiny is in our own hands,,, and confidence needs to develop around personal accomplishments....:)BUT there should come a time when a jumper learns the concept of "Expanding Awareness"... That means being on skydives, and seeing ALL of what is going on,, or at least ALMOST all of it...It means flying your own slot properly while at the same time being capable of "monitoring" the rest of the jump.....How many times have you been on a group skydive,,,,and upon landing you hear people talking about things which occurted on the dive,,, that you Never even SAW.!!!:o[:/]:S....
People can get so carried away in "doing their job" that they develop tunnel vision and all that matters to them,, is what is occuring in their own little world of that particular skydive....
Camera people need to be able to step aside,,,,from the jump,,, yet still be "in the right place" to capture the story..... An unseen participant
in the ballet of the air,,,,Whose focus has become the subject jumpers.....This means understanding exit timing, fall rates pre- drogue and post -drogue,
Aerial awareness concering the spot, the exit point, and the type and degree of traffic, on the jump...
When a jumpers' flying abilities have grown to the point where they can skydive while not being the focal point of the jump,,, then they are developing the right profile to be a videographer..... ... You must be willing to be a witness, and must be confident in your ability to assure correct positioning
of yourself, relative to the sun, and subject....
You must be VERY knowlegable about your Jumping equipment, and confident in your abilities to use it.....before introducing both the complexity of a helmet/camera rig.. and the responsibility of assuring that a proper and high level product is provided to the customer... ( the student)....
Jump numbers alone are not an indication that a person is ready for cameras.(but more jumps are better than fewer jumps,). Nor do capabilities in other areas of our sport..translate to capability with video..
Camera people,, in order to develop experience,,,need to fly camera..:$
Before joining a tandem or AFF jump,, shoot a bunch of fun jumps....I have never been turned down when I ask a small way,, or a big way "would you mind if I went along and videoed?".
Most people are happy to be video subjects.... Like many things,, start small,,, concentrate on what you are doing,,, review your footage frequently, in order to self critique,,,, and make the corrections which you deem needed. .. Little by little your framing will improve, your positioning will improve, your anticipation talents will improve,,,,and your videos will improve.....Fly your camera often,,, ( In the past
8 seasons I have made approx. 925 jumps and have shot video on over 900 of them.....) While some people may just want to shoot tandems or Aff or 4 way ONLY,,,, I personally have found great satisfaction in videoing skydives that I have been a part of, as well as skydives which I am witnessing....
When IN a formation,, I simply energize the cameras pre- exit,,, and then just concentrate on being in the jump... ( whatever video I get ... I get...) I will be flying my slot,, while at the same time looking around alot,, to catch the expressions on the faces of my friends.... I also sometimes will
attach one video camera,,, facing aft..... for some interesting shots...if people are docking on my legs,,..So like many other things,,,practice practice practice.......
.But just because you can "buy" a video camera,,,,doesn't mean you can "fly" a video camera,,,,At least not for hire...at least not immediately..... Be patient...practice, ask questions,,:S listen to the answers,,,,:o;)
learn,,,,,, then earn.......:|

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