SportsCam

[quade 3]

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By the time I have a thousand jumps, competition will drive professional videographers to make more sophisticated videos, because many more jumpers will use cameras.

Or so you assume.

The argument doesn't make sense though because generally speaking experienced jumpers don't do a heck of a lot of tandems as passengers.

Tandem passengers generally want one thing and one thing only, their mug smiling in freefall. All the consumer sophistication in the world probably isn't going to change that. They don't need pmip-daddy special effect or intercut special POVs, they want to see themselves clearly enjoying the experience so that they can show their friends how cool they are.

Maybe you've heard the phrase, made the tandem, got the t-shirt . . .

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[MarBrock 0]

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The argument doesn't make sense though because generally speaking experienced jumpers don't do a heck of a lot of tandems as passengers.

The competition I imagine doesn't involve experienced jumpers doing tandems. It involves experienced jumpers with cameras competing to earn some lift tickets doing tandem videos. The students might be fresh off the street, but the dzos and tandem masters aren't. In time, they'll choose videographers delivering better production values, all else be equal. They already have.

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Tandem passengers generally want one thing and one thing only, their mug smiling in freefall. All the consumer sophistication in the world probably isn't going to change that.

You could have made this argument in the days when freefall stills were common and video was not, but video is now more common than stills. You could say that titles and synchronized music are superfluous too, since the student only wants his mug in freefall, yet I rarely see a tandem video without titles and music. Progress didn't cease when you entered the business.

[quade 3]

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In time, they'll choose videographers delivering better production values, all else be equal. They already have.

Depends on the size of the operation. As it is, some operations don't want to do anything more for the clients because it would take more time. The operation doesn't HAVE more time. They want the tandem passengers in, jumped and out the door.

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Progress didn't cease when you entered the business.

Generally speaking, the higher the volume of business, the less you're going to see in the way of "extras" that take up valuable production and post time.

Lemme tell you, if I was only doing one thing -- making a freefall video of the Bush twins for a TV special for example -- yeah, you're right, I'd probably be strapping cameras on just about everything in sight; the wing, the tail, an outside helicopter, a second camera flyer, the shoe of the tandem master -- you name it, it would be there.

However, editing that mess takes loads of time. Time a normal video operation just doesn't have and time a high volume video operation could never even begin to dream of having.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[MarBrock 0]

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Rumor goes that a DZ once decided it would be cool to wire up students with Microphones then match up the audio to hear the student in freefall. Everything was cool untill the day the mic and clip came loose and beat the TM up and cut his face.

The rumor doesn't ring true to someone who has heard audio from a mic in freefall. Why would this DZ expect to hear anything cooler than the roar of the wind?

My helmet camera has a wired mic that attaches to the camcorder's AV port, and I've worn it clipped to the collar of my jumpsuit. It wouldn't cut my face if came loose, because I don't leave enough wire free, and I thread the wire through my chest strap, but the mic is useless in freefall anyway.

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There is a reason that hooded sweatshirts are highly frowned apon on tandems... if the cords float they are going to beat the TM's face.

If a tandem master wanted his student to wear a hooded sweatshirt, he could certainly find a way to stow the cords.

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After taking my first student today... I don't know if I could deal with the extra stuff to make sure that their camera is on and focused and everything else and still be ready to make the skydive.

I don't imagine the tandem master doing it. It's the videographer's job. The videographer would plan it with the tandem master at some point, of course, but it could easily become routine.

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A tandem is not another Skydive... its a VERY complex skydive and as soon as you lose focus of that... bad things happen.

You're right, but no one is suggesting a reckless approach to the video. Any video at all adds an element of risk. In one tandem video from South Africa, another jumper actually stands on the tandem master's back and climbs up the drogue. I'm not defending this practice, but a camera on the student is hardly in this category of risk. If the camera is small enough and properly mounted, it adds practically no risk. Everything we do in skydiving requires careful preparation.

[PhreeZone 14]

From the moment a tandem student meets the videographer they will be off the DZ in an hour or less at my DZ. That has to allow time to gear up, climb to altitude, jump, fly the canopy, land and edit the video. The Videographer has to be responcible to do a ground interview, film the gear up, the inflight things, the skydive, land, film the landing and then do the editing. After they hand a tape off to a student and meet a new one they have to pack. Does'nt exactly leave that much time to be mixing from various sources.

Doing tandems was quite frankly... the most scared I've ever been in freefall. Under canopy was a total trip trying to take care of the canopy issues, stowing the ripcord, making the leg strap more comfortable, lossening the lower laterals, teaching the person to fly a canopy and then entering the pattern and landing. Its a VERY complex skydive that made me wish I had pulled at 6500 instead of 6000. The last thing I want is something there recording me under canopy. I was talking to my self about the stuck slider and was talking through the mal tree under canopy incase we decided to chop after all... I don't want a student getting a copy of that. If they remember it fine, most dont. There is the old saying if a student begs to do lots of flips most won't be able to tell you how many you did (even if you don't do any) due to the overload.

I've seen bellycams on tandems before and they always wanted the out side videograpers view more then the one that was on their belly since the outside view is more dynamic.

What do I know though... I've only got 2 tandems as the TM, and only a few dozen tandem video jumps....

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[MarBrock 0]

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Generally speaking, the higher the volume of business, the less you're going to see in the way of "extras" that take up valuable production and post time.

Titles and music are extras. I've jumped at large and small DZs, and I never see a tandem video without titles and music. It all depends on what's possible in the available time, and what's possible increases with advancing technology.

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However, editing that mess takes loads of time. Time a normal video operation just doesn't have and time a high volume video operation could never even begin to dream of having.

With digital editing, the time required is not so great. With practice, I'm sure I could digitally edit video from two cameras in less time than videographers once took to produce a video from one camera with analog equipment. Two streams require a little more time than one but not a lot more, not more than twice the time of one. I download video into my laptop while viewing it, mark clips I want to include in the video and then drop them into a storyboard in the proper sequence. This laptop plus DV board and software only cost $700. My DZO's first camcorder alone cost him three or four times as much, more if you account for inflation. Progress is good.

[MarBrock 0]

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From the moment a tandem student meets the videographer they will be off the DZ in an hour or less at my DZ.

Tandems can wait for hours at my DZ, so possibly we have more time to experiment. Even at the larger, tandem mills near Atlanta, turnaround time is typically longer than an hour.

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That has to allow time to gear up, climb to altitude, jump, fly the canopy, land and edit the video. The Videographer has to be responcible to do a ground interview, film the gear up, the inflight things, the skydive, land, film the landing and then do the editing. After they hand a tape off to a student and meet a new one they have to pack. Does'nt exactly leave that much time to be mixing from various sources.

Another source possibly doubles the editing time and adds no time to the other steps. If the student's camera is properly prepared, putting it on the student takes only a few minutes, no more time than the harness requires.

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Doing tandems was quite frankly... the most scared I've ever been in freefall.

I don't doubt it, but for an experienced tandem masters, it presumably becomes more routine.

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The last thing I want is something there recording me under canopy.

No one will hold a gun to your head and force you to do it, but experienced tandem masters might be more willing.

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I've seen bellycams on tandems before and they always wanted the out side videograpers view more then the one that was on their belly since the outside view is more dynamic.

They'll have both views edited together, like two guys conversing in a movie. The video can therefore be longer.

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What do I know though... I've only got 2 tandems as the TM, and only a few dozen tandem video jumps....

I have no tandems, not even as a student, and I've only lurked a few, only one with a camera, so you're way ahead of me, but I can imagine this video without the experience.

[quade 3]

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With digital editing, the time required is not so great. With practice, I'm sure I could digitally edit video from two cameras in less time than videographers once took to produce a video from one camera with analog equipment.

OK, come to Perris and prove yourself. I don't think you realize what you're talking about, but I'd be more than interested to see you try to beat one of the editors at Perris on analog equipment with whatever laptop digital system you think you can beat them with.

I'd wager good chunks of cash they'd be done before your had ingested all your material. Then again, what do I know?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[MarBrock 0]

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OK, come to Perris and prove yourself. I don't think you realize what you're talking about, but I'd be more than interested to see you try to beat one of the editors at Perris on analog equipment with whatever laptop digital system you think you can beat them with.

If you'll supply the plane ticket, I'll be the digital steam drill to your analog John Henry. I'd like to make a few jumps at your big city DZ anyway.

[quade 3]

Sorry man, the burden of proof is on you. You gotta pay your own dang plane ticket.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[MarBrock 0]

Maybe next year. I'm already committed to Rantoul this year. I'm looking at the Perris manifest, live, on the Perris webcam, right now. Someone over there has discovered the 21st century.

[quade 3]

Dude, you're hysterical.

To my knowledge, Perris had one of the first DZ webcams on the planet.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[nacmacfeegle 0]

"I'd be more than interested to see you try to beat one of the editors at Perris on analog equipment with whatever laptop digital system you think you can beat them with."

This is the truth of the situation, I'm a big fan of using a computer based NLE system for cool edits (I have been for about 5-6 years). But for tandem factories you simply cannot beat a good analogue mixing desk operator, even with a dogs bollocks real-time suite. Which as far as I'm aware doesn't exist for laptop applications right now. Or at least not within the realms of even prosumer's budgets. So you are talking about a desktop dedicated computer, with a real time hardware accelerated card for the time being.

On the camera issue, I would be reluctant to surrender the quality available from even my basic PC7 for what I see as marginal safety and comfort reasons. 3 words echo in my ears from my early days of editing, quality, quality, quality.

CCD development is moving along though, and with it the quality of 'spycams'. However I would rather see higher quality pictures than multiple camera mixes.

And strapping a camera anywhere but the video operators head will not compensate for poor camera flying. The quality of the final tandem video is not dependent on the POV shots, computer editing effects, or snazzy titles, even a stonkin' music mix. It is directly attributable to the flying ability of the camera operator.

"I'd wager good chunks of cash they'd be done before your had ingested all your material."
And....
"With digital editing, the time required is not so great. With practice, I'm sure I could digitally edit video from two cameras in less time than videographers once took to produce a video from one camera with analog equipment."
You obviously haven't thought this through, or have very little experience editing to a deadline, under pressure. It is physically impossible to NLE faster than a real time, old fashioned mixing desk. The NLE system requires 'capture time' (as a minimum) the mixing desk does not.

Good chunks of cash, c'mon guys, lets keep it reasonable....Multiple cases of green bottles puhleeeze. A fool and his green bottles are easily partied.

--------------------

He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[davelepka 4]

OK, OK, I aploigize for the harshness, BUT, the problem was that you wouldn't stop and listen to what people with 10 or 15 times the jumps you have were saying, you continued to come back with frequent and lenghty replies (wait, you still haven't stopped). WHATEVER the reasons may be (it could be the advice of Bill Booths psychic advisor for all I know) but the fact is that TM's don't use helmets on their students, Gath, Pro Tec or otherwise.

I'm not giving you greif about the sports cam. I don't care what sort of camera you use, your videos will suck. It's got very little to do with the equipment. When I started shooting video, Mini DV was some Japanese engineers wet dream. I shot SVHS or VHS-C, and while the picture quality sucked, the flying was solid, and the product looked good. Top camera flyers all use the best equipment they can because they are passionate about thier work, and once the flying is there, the only way to improve is the equipment. Keep looking around the net for small cameras, and editing on your computer, or reading your photo shop catalogs, and while you're doing that, you will miss the bus as some other guy is at the DZ with a $200 Samsung 8mm and an old ProTec, working on his exit timing, shot framing, and lighting, on his way to becoming the video flyer you think you can be. Thankfully once your super helmet is assembled, you will miss the exit count on your first tandem video, and take a shot from the drouge square on the chin, and hopefully that will convince you to shut your trap and listen to the people who have been doing this for a long time and lived to tell the storries of those who haven't survived the mistakes and mishaps that continue to thin our already small population. Blue skies....

[AndyMan 7]

Is there anybody who's advice you will listen to?

Sure wish I knew as much as you do....

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[KawiZX900 0]

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prosumer's budgets.

that's a bitch to work on, when you know what you want and need, but can't afford cause you're still somewhat "sumer" and less Pro.... I know that pain. I know it well. anybody want to (Star) in my indie no budget life is rough art film???

Accelerate hard to get them looking, then slam on the fronts and rollright beside the car, hanging the back wheel at eye level for a few seconds. Guaranteed reaction- Dave Sonsky

[MarBrock 0]

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Dude, you're hysterical.

To my knowledge, Perris had one of the first DZ webcams on the planet.

Dude, who ever denied it?

[MarBrock 0]

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But for tandem factories you simply cannot beat a good analogue mixing desk operator, even with a dogs bollocks real-time suite. Which as far as I'm aware doesn't exist for laptop applications right now. Or at least not within the realms of even prosumer's budgets.

I don't jump at a tandem factory, but we have analog editing equipment, and the videographers are freely switching to laptops with digital editing software. No desktop computer is necessary, and the developer of the software I use, Pinnacle, has won eight Emmy awards for technical excellence, according to its marketing blurb. Sophisticated editing software is not expensive, because developers perceive a mass market for it, and marginal cost on a unit of software is very low, so economies of scale are very great. Microsoft even includes digital editing software with Windows XP.

http://www.pinnaclesys.com/

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So you are talking about a desktop dedicated computer, with a real time hardware accelerated card for the time being.

No, I'm not. I use a $600 laptop with an $89 PCMCIA DV capture (firewire) card. The laptop has a 1.33 ghz processor. I can capture DV in real time as I view it from my camcorder, and I can control the camcorder from the laptop through the firewire connection, and I can cut and paste video clips into a storyboard very conveniently. I'm not sure what else I need. An analog editor must at least view the video as he edits it. I can do the same.

I don't worry much about copying the video back to an analog format, like VHS, at this point, because I'm more interested in streaming media. I expect it become increasingly important. I can copy to VHS though, and it doesn't add a lot of time. I can probably do it while the student views the video.

I got an unusually good price on my laptop, but even faster, somewhat larger laptops retail in the $1000 range. You shouldn't underestimate the remarkable progress in this technology. It hasn't ceased to amaze me in decades.

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On the camera issue, I would be reluctant to surrender the quality available from even my basic PC7 for what I see as marginal safety and comfort reasons. 3 words echo in my ears from my early days of editing, quality, quality, quality.

I've always acknowledged a price in video quality from the "spyware" cameras, including my helmet camera, but the quality is better than you might think and improving rapidly. Swain is a very experienced videographer, and he gets the quality he expects from his camera. Maybe you need to review the technology again.

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And strapping a camera anywhere but the video operators head will not compensate for poor camera flying.

Here's an example using a camera similar to Swain's.

http://www.knology.net/~marbrock/Skyball.html

The video quality in this streaming media is much less than the quality from a camera like Swain's, because the video is highly compressed for streaming; however, the resolution is not bad even at this compression level. I can easily see the skyball in flight, and I was nowhere near the other jumpers. I get closer as my experience improves. I catch a lot of newbie grief here, but I'm actually very cautious.

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The quality of the final tandem video is not dependent on the POV shots, computer editing effects, or snazzy titles, even a stonkin' music mix. It is directly attributable to the flying ability of the camera operator.

I completely agree. I've said as much myself in this forum. The videographer's flying skill is 90% of the story. I don't try to do professional videos primarily for this reason, although my DZ needs cameramen; however, professional videos have music and titles regardless, and I expect this progress to continue. Progress typically occurs on the margins. The flying doesn't become less important as a consequence, but videographers must compete on the marginal production values regardless. Flying skill becomes relatively more important as risk and expense associated with the equipment becomes less of an issue.

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You obviously haven't thought this through, or have very little experience editing to a deadline, under pressure. It is physically impossible to NLE faster than a real time, old fashioned mixing desk. The NLE system requires 'capture time' (as a minimum) the mixing desk does not.

I can capture full resolution DV to my laptop in real time, and I have plenty of disk space for this purpose. Typical laptops now have 30-40 gig drives, more capacity than a DVD, and a firewire connection can move the bits fast enough, and ghz processors are also plenty fast enough. You apparently aren't familiar with the most recent technology. I'm not speculating here. I already possess this technology, and I'm not extraordinarily wealthy. [I'm also a software developer myself, so I don't use this stuff exclusively for skydiving.] I probably can't beat an experienced editor using analog equipment, in reality, but affordable digital equipment is not fundamentally slower. I've seen both in action, and I've seen experienced videographers switching from one to the other in the last year. It's happening.

[PhreeZone 14]

An experienced videographer remembers exactly what they shot so its real time edit. 10 minutes of filming translates to 15-17 minutes till a finished product can be put in the students hands. In the time it takes to capture 10 minutes worth of filming on a laptop, the analog editor is 2/3's done. By the time it takes to sort out the storyboard the analog editor is done, then the digital editor has to do the storyboarding, the rendering of the scenes and the exporting of the final product to a medium that the end user wants. If they want it set up for streaming (only people on Broadband want this) thats a lot of time to compress the file to a streaming format.

I'm a very experienced Premiere editor, but there is no way I'd want to do tandem videos on it. I do a lot of streaming video for my website too... but I use the right tools for the right job.

We tried using Imovie a few years back at the DZ, the people using it were missing at least 1 or 2 loads a day compaired to the analog editors due to the increased edit time. Missing 4 loads in a weekend is the difference between Ramon noodles and spam for some videographers

For a DZ with videographers sitting around all afternoon, digital editing is a good possibiliy, but for some place like Skydive Chicago (where the videographers don't have time to edit and they have full time editors...) or Perris or any DZ with 20-30 tandems standing around at almost any time... they just don't have the time to capture and edit. Its an edit on the fly process.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[quade 3]

Wow. You sure do like to type, don't ya?

Anyway, it's not how much storage you have or how fast you can process the bits -- it's called turn around time.

Lemme break it down for ya.

In an analog system you have to ingest (back in the day we used to say digitize, but it's already digital so now we "ingest") in real time, trim, render, whatever and then output. Let's say the camera flyer shoots 10 minutes of stuff -- you can injest all 10 minutes at once or start, stop and fast forward to the next clip, but my guess is that it'll still take about 10 minutes to ingest the damn thing.

Then you need to edit, let's call it a simple standard cuts only thing with a couple of titles. Some systems render in real time (mine at work does, but that's serious change), let's assume you can afford that or that'll be available soon on the "pro" level (actually it is on the Mac's running the latest version of Final Cut Pro, but that's also some serious coin). Anyway, assume your editor makes a 5 minute tape out of the 10 minutes the camera flyer shot -- from the time the tape arrived at the editor to the time it got into the hands of the client a MINIMUM of 20 minutes elapsed.

Same product on an analog system -- about 7 to 10 minutes.

Ok, another 10 minutes doesn't sound like much does it? Well, it starts to add up really fast at a drop zone that does a high volume of tandems and AFFs.

Maybe you've never seen that sort of operation.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[MarBrock 0]

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OK, OK, I aploigize for the harshness, BUT, the problem was that you wouldn't stop and listen to what people with 10 or 15 times the jumps you have were saying, you continued to come back with frequent and lenghty replies (wait, you still haven't stopped).

I am responsive to other posters, and I've conceded several points already, but people with 10 or 15 times the jumps I have are not entitled to be right. I'm no more obliged to stop posting than you. If you don't like the game, don't play it.

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WHATEVER the reasons may be (it could be the advice of Bill Booths psychic advisor for all I know) but the fact is that TM's don't use helmets on their students, Gath, Pro Tec or otherwise.

I suggested a Gath as a place to mount a small camera on a student. I stated that a Gath is thin and flexible and does not add two inches or a very hard surface to a student's head, because the statements are true and responsive to criticism in this thread. Check the record. The statements are also undisputed.

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I'm not giving you greif about the sports cam. I don't care what sort of camera you use, your videos will suck. It's got very little to do with the equipment.

I've conceded this point repeatedly in this forum, once in this thread. No one who has tried it disputes this point.

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When I started shooting video, Mini DV was some Japanese engineers wet dream.

The equipment and methods videographers will use in a few years are someone's wet dream now. That's precisely my point.

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Top camera flyers all use the best equipment they can because they are passionate about thier work, and once the flying is there, the only way to improve is the equipment.

This is what I mean by "marginal production values".

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Keep looking around the net for small cameras, and editing on your computer, or reading your photo shop catalogs, and while you're doing that, you will miss the bus as some other guy is at the DZ with a $200 Samsung 8mm and an old ProTec, working on his exit timing, shot framing, and lighting, on his way to becoming the video flyer you think you can be.

I also work on my exit timing and shot framing. Why you think I don't is a question only you can answer.

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Thankfully once your super helmet is assembled, you will miss the exit count on your first tandem video ...

I've already had this experience.

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... and take a shot from the drouge square on the chin ...

But not this one, because I never get close to a drogue.

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... and hopefully that will convince you to shut your trap and listen to the people who have been doing this for a long time and lived to tell the storries of those who haven't survived the mistakes and mishaps that continue to thin our already small population.

In reality, I listen more to the experienced videographers here than they listen to me. I've heard the stories and read the incident reports. As I noted in another thread, my DZO is an experienced videographer, a rigger, an S&TA, a tandem and AFF instructor and a pilot. He helped me rig my "super helmet" and advises me on jumping with a camera and everything else I do in the sport. In fact, he wants a camera like Swain's himself and has offered to buy mine. I'm having my camcorder mounted on a Hawkeye now, because I think I'm ready for it. Another AFF instructor at our DZ also wants my helmet camera, and another jumper with thousands of jumps already has one. Other instructors and experienced jumpers at my DZ also advise me, without the condescension I routinely experience here. You guys impress only yourselves this way.

The population of videographers and potential videographers is growing rapidly in reality, because the cost of entry is falling, and safety issues related to snags and whiplash are disappearing as cameras shrink. As you say, flying skill will always be the most important distinguishing factor, but cost consciousness and risk aversion are less and less limiting.

[ltdiver 3]

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I suggested a Gath as a place to mount a small camera on a student. I stated that a Gath is thin and flexible and does not add two inches or a very hard surface to a student's head, because the statements are true and responsive to criticism in this thread. Check the record. The statements are also undisputed.

Ok, perhaps this part of your thread has been ignored because of your unwillingness to accept the advice from others more experienced here. You don't know us, and we don't know you (except from the words you have posted here).

I am happy to hear that you are able to learn from those you do know and trust at your dz.

In case I hadn't considered the whole picture of what you are presenting, in regards to helmets on students (not the quality of camera or the editing issues), I presented your proposal to several TM at Perris (all with several thousand tandem jumps to their credit). All are innovative and leaders in their field. Highly respected.

Here are some of their replies:

1) A hard helmet on a student's head can be injurious to a TM's jaw and teeth. (this has already been stated before). Even a Gath helmet (and I had one there for them to look at).

2) A hard helmet will interfere with a TM's ability to communicate with the student. (especially important in an emergency). Also, most TM's yell at the 'student' to pull at pull time (for learning affect and the pleasure of the student to brag that he/she pulled the rc).

3) Having a video on the student's head can jip the real cameraflyers out of their income (especially if the student -knows- that he/she'll get 'video' of their jump for themselves).

4) Having a video on a student's head is a distraction from the real reason they are there....to enjoy a 'thrill ride' for a couple hundred bucks.

5) In a tandem operation (like Chicago, Elsinore, or Perris) it is too time consuming to deal with 2 video takes per student.

6) A student wants a picture of themselves 100% of the time, not a video of the ground or countryside.

7) etc......

I'd be happy to hear directly from your TM's at your home DZ on their thoughts as well. Would it be possible for them to join this forum and give another viewpoint?

Also, let's see if Bill Booth would like to join the conversation. He is an innovator and it would be most interesting to hear his input as well.

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[MarBrock 0]

I'm not unwilling to accept advice in this forum, but if you expect unqualified agreement on each point, I can't oblige you. Every point in your list has been made in this thread already, but I'm happy to know that the Perris tandem masters are unanimous.

1 & 2) If no tandem master will accept a Gath helmet on a student, then no tandem student can wear a camera mounted on a Gath helmet. I acknowleged this point earlier and suggested a frappe hat or a "spycam" mounted on sunglasses. I'm not sure why this response doesn't count as "accepting advice", but it's on the record. I'm still willing to suggest a Gath to a TM regardless of your poll. I have discussed cameras on students with my DZO who does tandems and video, and he didn't react with kneejerk disapproval.

3) I don't imagine a camera on a student substituting for a camera flyer. I imagine editing two streams together. I've said as much repeatedly. I'm not sure what excludes this repetition from the "accepted advice" category either, but it's also on the record.

4) If a student camera is small enough, it's not a distraction, and cameras are already very small and getting smaller all the time. The spycam on sunglasses as well as Toshiba's solid state video cameras, requiring no separate camcorder, are responsive to this criticism. Apparently, only total capitulation fits properly in the "accepted advice" category.

5) I don't jump at an operation like Perris, so this fact is not relevant to me.

6) I can't speak for every student on Earth, but I took my camera on a tandem hang glider and recorded only what I saw and not my mug, so the planet has room for at least one exception.

7) etc...

You may conduct your poll with my DZO and other TMs I know through the forum at my home DZ's website at www.skydiveal.com. We're very welcoming.

Finally, I've experienced this routine before. When I first described my camera helmet, similar to Swain's, in this forum several months ago, the criticism was similar, and the experienced advisors dismissed me as a clueless newbie with a death wish, etc... Many of the criticisms in that thread, still on the record, are directly applicable to Swain's camera, but few of them appear in this thread, certainly not with the same degree of condescension. Anyone can verify this fact for themselves.

[LouDiamond 1]

Is it just me or does this old saying seem to be going through everyone elses head as they read all of this?


SOME PEOPLE YOU JUST CAN'T REACH....

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[MarBrock 0]

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him obediently parrot every word you say.