SportsCam

[skychic68 0]

Has anyone seen the latest ad in Skydiving of the SportsCam setup? Mike Swain developed it. Basically a camera hooked up to a "lipsticl" camera mounted to the helmet via a cable. The camera is tucked away in a pouch that is belly mounted to the harness. Has anyone used one of these getups? I'm curious about the quality. Man it would be nice to save your neck every day.

Que sera sera

[PhreeZone 15]

You normally use a lot of the crispness and functionallity of the camera since you are using cheaper optics and electronics to record via. I have'nt seen ther ad that you are refering to but split systems used to be the only option years ago, smaller cameras have allowed direct mounting recently.

Nice thing is that you could use a cheap cheap camera since all its doing is acting as a VCR and you would'nt need that much in terms of optics since the remote camera is now the lowest quality piece of the system.

Drawbacks are usually you are stuck with just one lens, they don't normally make wide angle lens in the 20mm size the cameras tend to be. You also need to create a system to ditch the helmet in case of a snag. If you just release the helmet, its still attached to you via the wire to the recording deck. Also the signal going to the camera has always in the past been lower quality then a normal camera.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[voodew1 0]

go to helmet-camera.com-----neat deal changeable lens for $20 --480 lines resolution drawback is lots of wires running down your body and a big bag on your gut. It does a good job though.

The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid

[AndyMan 7]

I saw this at Chicagoland a few monthes ago. The concensus was that it's a few steps forward because of the size and weight, but a step backwards because of the externally mounted VCR unit.

I'd like to see something similar, with wireless, and bigger optics.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[MarBrock 0]

The web address is www.helmetcamera.com (no hyphen). The marketer is a biker rather than a skydiver, but the "lipstick" camera is probably the same hardware, and his price is less than half of Swain's. [The manufacturer calls it a "bullet" camera, and you can also find it at "spy equipment" sites.] Swain's mount is interesting, but you pay a lot for it. The helmetcamera includes a very rugged housing for the lipstick. I don't know about Swain's.

I have a helmetcamera, and despite some grief in this forum, I've used it successfully many times. I'm not sure a cutway feature is really necessary, but I cut the cable, stripped the wires, wrapped the ends back together and wrapped electrical tape around each wire and more tape around the bundle. The cable holds together well in freefall, but I can easily pull it apart. Someone in this forum suggested this approach using a jack and plug soldered to the ends of the cut cable, but the soldering job exceeded my patience and skill thresholds.

The camera's viewing angle is fixed but acceptably wide. The video quality is ok for recreation or coaching or streaming video, but the camera is not suitable for professional work. Here's an example.

http://www.knology.net/~marbrock/Skyball.html

Because you wear the camcorder in a pouch on your waist, an external control for the camcorder, like the CamEye Sport, comes in very handy. I think Swain includes one with his system, but the helmetcamera does not. You can get one at www.jumpvideo.com for $65, so the helmetcamera is still much less expensive.

Finally, if you don't have a camcorder already, PhreeZone is right about the incredibly shrinking camcorder. The Sony MICROMV fits easily in the palm of your hand, is less than 2.5" wide and weighs 14 oz. The price of slightly larger models is dropping fast. By this time next year, 2kcomposites will probably make a one-piece helmet enclosing these cameras, hardly bigger, heavier or riskier than the helmet you wear now without a camera. [If money is no object, they'll probably make one for you now.]

http://www.2kcomposites.com/html/ffx.html

A lot more skydivers will jump with cameras in the future. Flying with a camera will soon be routine, and the quality and sophistication of professional video must increase as a consequence. Tandem students will wear cameras, and the tandem video will mix the student's point of view with the videographer's, for example. Digital editing is becoming very inexpensive too.

[mmswain 0]

Hi, I'm Mike Swain the developer of SportsCam. To answer your question, the quality of the picture is great. I'm using the prototype every weekend for commercial tandem videos. By the way, it is not a "lipstick" camera but miniature video camera that acts as a remote lens. You can compare still frames from video tape or look at a SportsCam video clip on my website, http://www.endlessfall.net. You can e-mail questions directly to me at [email protected]
Thanks for your interest.

[quade 3]

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A lot more skydivers will jump with cameras in the future. Flying with a camera will soon be routine, and the quality and sophistication of professional video must increase as a consequence. Tandem students will wear cameras, and the tandem video will mix the student's point of view with the videographer's, for example.

I sure as heck hope not.

It would be a shame if a student's first experience with skydiving were somehow tained and distracted with his attempts to do anything with video -- like having to hold his hand a certain way in order to capture footage of his face or wear anything "extra" beyond the already totally unfamiliar gear. Heck, a lot of tandems I have seen, in fact the majority of them, don't even wear helmets. I'd much rather have a person just enjoy the experience and leave the distractions to the professionals.

That's not to say that a wrist mounted camera isn't appropriate for the tandem master, but for the student to wear one would be . . . I don't know, just not right.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[chuteless 1]

Jason::::Voodoo1 : If you look at the actual recording unit on Swain's website, you will see it is extremely small. Hardly requires a "BIG" bag around your gut. Be realistic. As for "LOTS" of wires....hardly. You are right on though for great quality.

[ltdiver 3]

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Heck, a lot of tandems I have seen, in fact the majority of them, don't even wear helmets.

Helmets aren't worn by tandem students to prevent injury to the tandem instructor's face. Likewise, a camera on a student's hand would be a possible hard impact device if the student whipped their hand around in freefall or especially on opening!

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I'd much rather have a person just enjoy the experience and leave the distractions to the professionals.

Couldn't agree with you more...

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[MarBrock 0]

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I sure as heck hope not.

It would be a shame if a student's first experience with skydiving were somehow tained and distracted with his attempts to do anything with video -- like having to hold his hand a certain way in order to capture footage of his face or wear anything "extra" beyond the already totally unfamiliar gear. Heck, a lot of tandems I have seen, in fact the majority of them, don't even wear helmets. I'd much rather have a person just enjoy the experience and leave the distractions to the professionals.

That's not to say that a wrist mounted camera isn't appropriate for the tandem master, but for the student to wear one would be . . . I don't know, just not right.

I'm not thinking of a wrist mounted camera on the student or the tandem master. A student could wear a small, lightweight helmet, like a Gath, with a small camera mounted on the helmet, as I do. The student's camera sees roughly what the student sees, and the student is hardly aware that it's there. I wore my camera this way on a tandem hang glider last year.

The student's camera does not replace the videographer. The tandem video combines video from this camera and the videographer's camera. The videographer does all the video work here. He provides the student's camera and edits video from both cameras into a single stream, cutting back and forth between his perspective and the student's perspective. With a laptop computer, this sort of editing is now very easy and not very expensive.

A tandem master could wear a wrist camera for a third perspective, but I don't imagine the tandem master being involved. He must focus on flying the tandem rig.

[MarBrock 0]

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Helmets aren't worn by tandem students to prevent injury to the tandem instructor's face. Likewise, a camera on a student's hand would be a possible hard impact device if the student whipped their hand around in freefall or especially on opening!

I agree about a camera on a student's hand, but I doubt that a helmet would do more harm to your face than a skull. A skull is much harder than my Gath helmet in fact. I expect the helmet would protect your face from an impact with my skull, as well as protecting my skull from your skull. The cameras we're discussing are very small and getting smaller. You could probably mount one on a frappe hat, and I've even seen a video camera hidden in a pair of sunglasses, so a helmet isn't necessary, but I doubt it poses a significant hazard for the tandem master.

http://www.spooktech.com/bodyworn/videosunglasses.shtml

I hope to make some videos this way before the end of the summer, so we'll see.

[ltdiver 3]

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A student could wear a small, lightweight helmet, like a Gath, with a small camera mounted on the helmet, as I do.

I restate....a tandem instructor does not want his student to wear any kind of hard helmet. A frap hat is the most covering they would want them to have donned.

Just one wack from a student's head when they exit the plane, or try to arch for the first time, or the double pump on opening... could remove the tandem instructor's teeth! Or render him/her incapacitated.

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[MarBrock 0]

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Hi, I'm Mike Swain the developer of SportsCam. To answer your question, the quality of the picture is great. I'm using the prototype every weekend for commercial tandem videos. By the way, it is not a "lipstick" camera but miniature video camera that acts as a remote lens. You can compare still frames from video tape or look at a SportsCam video clip on my website, http://www.endlessfall.net. You can e-mail questions directly to me at [email protected]
Thanks for your interest.

Your mount looks like an improvement over what I use, but it's expensive. Also, your web site says that the camcorder must be a Sony for the LANC port, but I use a less expensive Canon from the ZR series (ZR45MC, last year's model) which also has a LANC port. I use the LANC with a CamEye Sport and it works well. Since your system doesn't use the Sony's optics, a less expensive camcorder in the bag seems like a selling point. You can still find the ZR45MC in the box online for less than $400, and it's as small as cameras in the Sony TRV line.

[MarBrock 0]

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I restate....a tandem instructor does not want his student to wear any kind of hard helmet. A frap hat is the most covering they would want them to have donned.

Just one wack from a student's head when they exit the plane, or try to arch for the first time, or the double pump on opening... could remove the tandem instructor's teeth! Or render him/her incapacitated.

ltdiver

O.K. I'll also restate. If my head hits your face hard enough to dislodge teeth, my head can dislodge your teeth with or without a helmet. I doubt the helmet makes much difference, but it might protect my head and probably protects your teeth too.

A skull is much harder than most helmets. I've seen complaints about flimsy Gath helmets, for example, but a Gath helmet is not designed for a very forceful impact and is supposed to break on impact. It absorbs the impact by breaking.

Many helmets are designed to break this way. Bicycle helmets, for example, are often only a thin layer of plastic over a layer of styrofoam. On impact, the plastic is supposed to break as the impact compresses the styrofoam. Some helmets are styrofoam only. The plastic doesn't add much protection. It's only cosmetic. Even motorcycle helmets are designed to break on impact.

http://www.flamesonmytank.co.za/helmets.htm

"Most people think that it is the helmet's outer shell that protects the head. (If this were the case we would all be wearing steel army helmets from World War II). Instead, protection is provided by a combination of 'crumble zones' involving both the outer and inner layers. Therefore a helmet is actually a fragile item designed to break on impact. This fact has serious implications when it comes to topics like how to care for your helmet."

On the other hand, I don't want my skull breaking on impact with your face, and you don't want your face breaking on impact with my skull either. I suspect that both student and tandem master are safer if the student wears a Gath helmet.

[quade 3]

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I suspect that both student and tandem master are safer if the student wears a Gath helmet.

Suspecting something doesn't nessasarily make it so and what you can do in a hang gliding situation doesn't always translate to a safe situation in skydiving.

Maybe you are right, but don't you think it would be wise to do some research by asking tandem masters about all the different aspects about it before making the claims?

I mean, I don't know jack diddly about tandems and I wouldn't ever assume I know what is or is not safe to do as a tandem master.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[PhreeZone 15]

Having just gone through my tandem training... a helmet is HIGHLY avoided. With flesh you can have the hair and skin give before the bones contact, with a helmet there is nothing to give. Read the RWS manual and see why they only reccommend Frap hats or nothing. For gods sake to video tandems your to either have an AFF rating or a tandem rating...

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[AndyMan 7]

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O.K. I'll also restate. If my head hits your face hard enough to dislodge teeth, my head can dislodge your teeth with or without a helmet. I doubt the helmet makes much difference, but it might protect my head and probably protects your teeth too.

Most tandem students heads are not big enough to take out teeth, or break a jaw bone when the students head slams back. Head and teeth just don't line up.

Adding a helmet can add up to two inches to the "height" of the head, which will put it into range of the TM's jaw-bone with many students.

Hard helmets are strongly discouraged by all the tandem manufacturers.


Many tandem students aren't even aware enough to pull a rip-cord when an instructer is shoving an altimeter in their face. I'd hate to add more responsibilities. Also, I would hate to have a tandem student thinking they are photographers who need to concentrate on getting cool video. I would much rather see them just have fun.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[MarBrock 0]

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Suspecting something doesn't nessasarily make it so and what you can do in a hang gliding situation doesn't always translate to a safe situation in skydiving.

You're right. That's why I used the word "suspect". If I had meant "necessarily so", I would have written those words instead. A hang glider certainly is not a tandem parachute, but my experience with the tandem hang glider convinces me that a student can wear a camera and hardly be aware of it. The camera adds no burden on the student.

The effect of a student camera on the tandem master is a legitimate concern. I'm not oblivious to the problems, but if people never sought solutions to problems like these, we'd have no freefall video of any kind. We'd have no tandem parachutes. We'd have no sport skydiving at all.

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Maybe you are right, but don't you think it would be wise to do some research by asking tandem masters about all the different aspects about it before making the claims?

The claims I made about helmets are based on research. I haven't suggested a conventional camera helmet or a Z1 or a Bonehead or any similar helmet. I suggested a Gath. I know that a Gath doesn't add two inches to the height of my head, because I wear one myself. I also know that a Gath is not a hard helmet. The shell is very flexible.

I've also agreed already that a frappe hat might work as well as a Gath helmet for this purpose, and no helmet at all is necessary with the sunglass mounted camera I linked. This camera is not science fiction and is not extremely expensive. I am listening to the concerns expressed in this forum, and I am addressing them.

Clearly, I won't be doing anything I've discussed here without the cooperation of a tandem master, but I must speculate long enough to devise a method a tandem master may consider. If I'm arranging the video and want video from the student's perspective, I must propose this method. That the tandem master is in charge of a tandem jump goes without saying. He needn't permit any video at all.

[MarBrock 0]

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Most tandem students heads are not big enough to take out teeth, or break a jaw bone when the students head slams back. Head and teeth just don't line up.

Adding a helmet can add up to two inches to the "height" of the head, which will put it into range of the TM's jaw-bone with many students.

Hard helmets are strongly discouraged by all the tandem manufacturers.

Again, I have suggested only one type of helmet here, a Gath, and I know that a Gath does not add two inches to the height of my head. It probably doesn't add half an inch, and it is not a very hard helmet.

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Many tandem students aren't even aware enough to pull a rip-cord when an instructer is shoving an altimeter in their face. I'd hate to add more responsibilities.

The camera I imagine adds no responsibility for the student.

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Also, I would hate to have a tandem student thinking they are photographers who need to concentrate on getting cool video. I would much rather see them just have fun.

I hardly expect a student to think of a camera at all, any more than the student thinks of the tandem rig or his goggles. In principle, the student need not know the camera is there. I don't see how a pair of sunglasses could make the student a self-conscious cameraman. That's how small these cameras are becoming.

[MarBrock 0]

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For gods sake to video tandems your to either have an AFF rating or a tandem rating...

Large DZs might enforce this requirement, but even at the larger DZs in my area, most video flyers do not have an AFF rating or a tandem rating. For smaller DZs, this requirement makes many tandem videos practically impossible. At this point, my home DZ has only one experienced video flyer meeting all of the requirements mentioned in this forum, our DZO. He can't do everything. Often, he is the tandem master himself. Sometimes, he must pilot the plane.

How many of the video flyers posting here have an AFF or tandem rating?

[ltdiver 3]

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How many of the video flyers posting here have an AFF or tandem rating?

I have my AFFI rating and got it before ever flying video with tandem students. I have also worked with tandem instructors (ground crew) since my own student days.

At my home dz (before Perris) we tried putting an additional video camera on the tandem instructor's head. Our thoughts were that it would be really neat for the student to see his flying perspective on tape.

We were wrong on that account. All of the students, when interviewed, weren't interested in that perspective. They were only interested in seeing themselves in the picture 100% of the time. The skydive was 'all about them' (as it should be). So, we nixed the program and stayed only with the traditional cameraflyer. Made it alot easier for dubbing anyway...

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[PhreeZone 15]

>How many of the video flyers posting here have an AFF or tandem rating?

I'm getting my rating just to make me availble to do tandem videos in the future.

Rumor goes that a DZ once decided it would be cool to wire up students with Microphones then match up the audio to hear the student in freefall. Everything was cool untill the day the mic and clip came loose and beat the TM up and cut his face. There is a reason that hooded sweatshirts are highly frowned apon on tandems... if the cords float they are going to beat the TM's face. After taking my first student today... I don't know if I could deal with the extra stuff to make sure that their camera is on and focused and everything else and still be ready to make the skydive. A tandem is not another Skydive... its a VERY complex skydive and as soon as you lose focus of that... bad things happen.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[davelepka 4]

Seriously dude, give it up. With a hair over 200 jumps, and your home DZ (and frame of reference) only having one multi rated jumper, maybe it's time to defer to the judgement of those with a little more expereince. I would suspect that some TM's in Perris probably do close to 200 tandems a month in their busy season, and if they (and every other TM I have ever met or seen) would opt for a bare headed student over a helmet, they may be on to something. Think about logging off the computer, doing another 1000 jumps, including some tandems and some video, then come back and see if you feel the same way.

[quade 3]

Harsh man, harsh.

It's all true, but still harsh.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[MarBrock 0]

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Seriously dude, give it up. With a hair over 200 jumps, and your home DZ (and frame of reference) only having one multi rated jumper, maybe it's time to defer to the judgement of those with a little more expereince.

I misspoke earlier. We have two AFF instructors who do video, maybe three. Only our DZ is always there. I have carefully considered the experienced advice here, but I have no reason to give anything up, because the advisors haven't presented the reasons. I won't be overloading a high performance canopy any time soon, but advancing technology allows me to experiment with video more safely.

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I would suspect that some TM's in Perris probably do close to 200 tandems a month in their busy season, and if they (and every other TM I have ever met or seen) would opt for a bare headed student over a helmet, they may be on to something.

The tandem masters at my home DZ typically don't put helmets on their students either, but if they examine a Gath helmet, they'll see for themselves that it doesn't add two inches to the student's head and that it has a flexible shell rather than a hard, rigid shell. If the tandem master doesn't want a Gath helmet on his student's head, that's obviously his call, and I must explore other options, like the sunglass mounted, pinhole CCD camera I linked earlier. I can also obtain the camera alone, the size of my thumbnail, and mount it to a frappe hat or something similar. The cameras are not very expensive. Some even have optics and a wireless link to the recorder. I'll link the web sites if you like.

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Think about logging off the computer, doing another 1000 jumps, including some tandems and some video, then come back and see if you feel the same way.

Seriously dude, I needn't log off the computer or do another 1000 jumps to experiment with cameras. I received similar grief a few months ago over a helmet camera very similar to Swain's. Now, an experienced videographer with over 2100 jumps sells a similar device, and I'm not such an oddball newbie anymore, not on the helmet camera issue anyway. I need the cooperation of a tandem master to put a camera on a student, of course.

If I leave this forum, you should assume that I'm proceeding with my interests despite your disapproval, but I'll more likely be back, because I value the feedback. Most of the advice here is reflexive naysaying, but that's fine. Skepticism is a good thing. Tandem parachutes must have evoked strong skepticism in the early days. The whole idea of a tandem parachute is subject to criticism of this kind, but the designers of tandem parachutes were not deterred, and videographers now have work as a consequence.

By the time I have a thousand jumps, competition will drive professional videographers to make more sophisticated videos, because many more jumpers will use cameras. The rapidly falling size and price of the equipment makes this outcome almost inevitable, and I already see it happening. A few years ago, I might not have considered flying with a camera at this point, because the cost and size of the equipment and related safety issues might have deterred me. On the other hand, in the sixties, a jumper with two hundred jumps and a D license was rated for instruction and exhibitions and practically anything else jumpers could do. Turf guarders didn't invent this sport, and I don't expect an established videographers union to slow the progress much now, not in my neck of the woods anyway.

In a year or two, even smaller cameras will record digital video directly to solid-state memory with sufficient resolution, frame rate and image stability for a freefall video. These cameras will mount with no with wires and add very little weight or snag potential. It's only a matter of time, and the time is short. The Panasonic SV-AV series is close to the mark now. The smallest digital tape recorders will also be small enough.

By the time I have a thousand jumps, helmet cameras suitable for tandem video will be hardly detectable and add no significant risk. Evidence of this trend is already irrefutable. Professional videographers will meet this challenge by innovating. I'm not a professional camera flyer now and don't pretend to be, but as I prepare for the possibility, I want to prepare for next year's technology, not last year's technology. I edit digitally on a computer for the same reason.