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Magistr8

Helmet cameras

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Believe it or not, one year is kind of a long time in the video world. In the next year, a lot of what specifically said here might be moot. With that in mind, I'll speak in very general terms.

Most folks are using Sony products. Right now, they're the most reliable cameras out there but that could all change over the course of time. When you're actually ready to buy a camera you can check back again.

Most people are shooting miniDV. There are a number of reasons for doing this, but these could all change in a year or two.

For the most part, people have two basic choices as far as basic styles go; top mount or side mount. It's debatable what is "better" but there is no doubt that the top mount stuff is less expensive.

If I was going to recommend a camera that a person could buy today with the idea that they -might- jump it in the next year or two, it'd probably be the Sony DCR-TRV18 which retails for about $800. If they decide that they -won't- jump it, because they eventually learn about a lot of evil nasty things about jumping camera, then they won't be out a lot of cash.
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

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Of course you you are right I really had no intention of flying a camera soon. What I didn want however was to get a feel for what kind of questions I should be asking at my DZ and what sort of things to look for when i finially do fly my own videos


"Impossible is a word to be found only in the dictionary of fools." Napoleon Bonaparte

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What I didn want however was to get a feel for what kind of questions I should be asking at my DZ and what sort of things to look for when i finially do fly my own videos



Well, that's something entirely different.

Probably the best thing to do is find a good "old" camera flyer at your DZ, buy him a beer or two and pick his brain. Ask him what he thinks are the bare minimums as far as flying camera at that DZ are or -should- be. Ask him what kind of equipment he's using. Ask if there's any real reason behind it or if he's just following the crowd.
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

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For the most part, people have two basic choices as far as basic styles go; top mount or side mount. It's
debatable what is "better" but there is no doubt that the top mount stuff is less expensive. ***

I agree completely with the exception of that "Less Expensive" statement.

I design and build my own high-end helmets. I have made side mount brackets, belly mounts, airplane mounts (just to name a few) and have a few different video helmet setups but by no means are my top mounts the "less expensive" versions, my side mounts are by far.

My 3 chip VX-2000 comes in at around $2900 ea and is way to big to side mount, the only cameras I consider side mounting are the PC series (PC-100, 101, 5 etc.) Sony cameras (I too am a Sony fan) but they come in around $900-$1800 ea. (I personally have a PC-100 for side or top).

In my opinion for the average side mount system most folks have invested around $2000 (helmet, sight, video, and 35mm still), while the average top mount system is going to be well over $6000 (helmet, sight, video, 35mm still, + medium format or...).

The top mount systems offer more mounting room and you can use much higher end cameras and more of them.

What are you getting at with that statement, I am curious as to your viewpoint?

Michael

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Most top mount systems for the weekend jumper around my DZ seem to be a TRV series that costs 750-1200, then a flat top helmet at 600, box is 200. Sight and cameye is about 2200 total for a middle of the line TRV style. The Side mounts costs 1200-1800, 250 for a helmet, 250 for a box, then the sight (most don't have them here) and goodies is about 2000 for a low end PC series setup.

I can see where on stills and medium format the top mount comes in way ahead.
Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

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If you're a camera novice, like me, I suggest you try something different, a small helmet camera with optics and CCD only on your helmet and a camcorder in a pouch around your waist. www.helmetcamera.com sells the camera, and I've had good luck with it. A friend at my drop zone bought one soon after seeing mine, and he seems happy with it too. The price is right at $259, but you also need a camcorder. The price is lower than I expect for skydiving equipment, because the seller markets the camera primarily to bikers, rather than skydivers, and bikers are a larger market. The camera housing is extremely tough. You could literally drive a truck over it without damaging the camera.

The helmet camera adds very little weight to your head and has a very low profile, so your risk of whiplash or entanglement is small. The video quality is not comparable to a good camcorder, but the quality is very good. For amateur freefall video, it's fine. I have a video online at www.knology.net/~marbrock/Skyball.html. Of course, the video quality directly from tape is better than the streaming media.

Since you won't wear your camcorder on your head, you can choose a larger model, to save some bucks, but I'd still get a digital video model. I use a Canon ZR-45 MC, which is reasonably small, and I'm very happy with it. I could wear this camcorder on my head with the right helmet, but if I were buying a camcorder to wear on my head, I might choose something else. Shop online for your camcorder. You'll save hundreds over brick and mortar stores. I paid $525 for my Canon at dbuys.com, and I have no regrets. Dbuys had a special on Canon's five hour battery when I ordered, and I recommend this option. The standard battery lasts only two hours (less for recording), and you'll want a spare.

You don't need to spend big bucks on a helmet for camera work. I wear my camera on a Gath helmet, which you can buy from a skydiving site for less than $100. I have a picture online at www.knology.net/~marbrock/HelmCam.jpg. The helmet camera package includes a heavy-duty, velcro fastener to attach it to a helmet, and the camera vendor says it'll hold the camera at speeds of 200 mph; however, I haven't tested the claim. I also secure the camera to my helmet with small bungie cords to be safe. The Gath helmet has small slots on the top which are well suited for attaching the bungies, but I needed to drill two additional holes to place the camera far enough back on the helmet for the right camera angle. My friend uses duct tape instead of the bungie cords.

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Can you say snag hazzards with that camera? With the bungee hooks its just asking to snag a line with an unstable deployment and same with the front edge of the camera having the gap in it. In the case of a snag and need to chop the canopy and helmet the wires would not let the helmet go any where. The canopy would still streamer off of the helmet and camera wire untill it either broke or till you chop it and the waist mounted camera provided you could get it off before you bounce. Thats one reason that hand mounted still releases fell out of favor with camera jumpers, the need to ditch the equipment in an emergency was too complicated. (Reach inside jacket, unplug wire, chop... etc)

There is a reason that a good skydiving camera setup is not cheap. It takes planning to make a set up with the least amount of possible snag spots as possible. With the money you spent on that belly mount set up and the extra lens, you could have bought a PC 9 that would serve almost any purpose you could think of in skydiving and in general video needs.
Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

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I thought about entanglement. The bungies don't expose much on which to snag. Most of the helmet mounted camcorders I see expose much more, but it's worth considering. I could rely more on the velcro attachment and cover some exposed gaps with duct tape. The camera could then peel off easily enough. I could be going overboard with the bungies, so I mentioned my friend who uses tape.

A Sony PC 9 sells for nearly twice the price of my Canon, and I'd need a mount and probably a new helmet to wear it on my head. The lowest price I find online for a PC 9 at the moment is $999, and that price is already higher than both the helmet camera and Canon. I'd have more weight on my head and a higher profile if I wore any camcorder top mounted. The world is full of good video options, but a Canon ZR-45 is quite good for general video needs.

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What are you getting at with that statement, I am curious as to your viewpoint?



Pretty simple really. My comments were directed at a guy that was just starting out and would more than likely be just flying a single video camera for awhile. As a matter of fact, this guy isn't even completely certain he's going to jump camera yet.

With that in mind - without a doubt -- the TRV18 is less expensive than the least expensive PC style video camera.

Make sense?

I mean, SURE, if I wanted to create the MOST expensive system, it would probably also be a top mount, but that's not where I was going in my responce. ;)
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

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Look newbie, I'm going to let that one slide because you probably don't know any better. But you should understand that there's a heck of a lot of folks here that don't think a person with a limited amount of skill and knowledge ought to be handing out advice about anything, let alone advice about one of the most dangerous things you can do in skydiving -- namely -- jump camera.

Further, we do in fact have a few rules around here. I didn't make them up but if you look over my name, you'll notice that it's green which means it's my job to enforce the rules. Telling -me- to piss up a tree and calling -me- an old man -- just ain't smart.

So, wanna rethink some stuff?
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

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Go piss on a tree, old man.



Umm, dude... You may just want to listen to what the man has to say. Keep in mind the fact that Paul knows a hell of a lot more about photography (in the air or on the ground) than you probably ever will.

At your experience level, it really isn't wise to be giving camera advice. Especially since a lot of DZ's won't even let their jumpers touch a camera until they have over 200 jumps.

Also, what you said was a personal attack and is not tolerated on this forum.

Kris
Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and
Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™

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Look newbie, I'm going to let that one slide because you probably don't know any better.



Look, more experienced skydiver, I have plenty of respect for experience, but I don't need your condescension. I've made no secret of my skill level, as your own quote clearly demonstrates, and I don't pretend to offer the advice of an experienced camera flyer. I suggested an alternative the initiator of this thread probably hasn't considered before. That's all.

The helmet camera I'm using does put less weight on my head and does have a lower profile than a camcorder. I have already discussed the subject with several experienced camera flyers, including the DZO at my home dropzone, who encouraged me and expressed interest in the device himself. The friend I mentioned is also a very experienced skydiver.

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Further, we do in fact have a few rules around here.



Enforce any rules you like. I saw your moderator designation. I'm not threatening your turf.

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So, wanna rethink some stuff?



What am I supposed to rethink, specifically?

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Umm, dude... You may just want to listen to what the man has to say.



When have I not listened? How is one supposed to respond to "Uh . . ."?

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Keep in mind the fact that Paul knows a hell of a lot more about photography (in the air or on the ground) than you probably ever will.



I have every respect for Paul's experience, but "Uh . . ." doesn't express very much of it.

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At your experience level, it really isn't wise to be giving camera advice.



I described a particular, novel alternative which no one else has discussed, and I provided an example of its use. I don't pretend to give experienced advice. I've gone out of my way to avoid pretending experience.

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Also, what you said was a personal attack and is not tolerated on this forum.



I call it a "good natured jab", the sort of thing skydivers exchange all the time in my experience, but you may characterize the remark however you like, and Paul may ban me if he likes. I hope he won't, because I'm sure I have a lot to gain from his experience.

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What am I supposed to rethink, specifically?



I thought I made that perfect clear in my last post.

Beyond that . . . let's discuss the camera you've suggested.

While it is "interesting", separate cameras and recorders have been used for skydiving applications before. For instance, see THIS. Over the years, most experienced camera flyers have abandoned the concept because it creates several issues -- none the least of which is that while there may be a small chance of entanglement, if it does occur, there is the possibility of the helmet not fully clearing even when jettisoned because of the connecting cables. Further, believe it or not, one helmet set-up such as the one you've described has been considered responsible for a camera flyer forgetting to put his rig on and exiting the aircraft without one! Odd but true! So, in fact, there are some issues . . .

I would not suggest something like this to a person just starting out camera flying for a number of reasons, but since it works for you, heck, continue on and let us know how it works out in the long run -- like over the course of a couple of years. I don't think that in the long run you'll be very happy with the quality of the video both in terms of it's format (analog) and resolution.
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

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I'm quite new to this site, but most of the "good natured jab(s)" I've seen have some sort of :),B|,:P,:D,:ph34r:, or B| included. And NONE of the ones I have run into have told anyone to "go piss" on, over or up anything.
I'll share a piece of advice I got from a Dropzone member... he said something like, hang around and gain as much as you can from the conversation because you can often learn more by listening to others. pax, matt

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I thought I made that perfect clear in my last post.



The clarity escaped me. "Blah... and Uh..." weren't beacons of enlightenment either, Mr. Manners.

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While it is "interesting", separate cameras and recorders have been used for skydiving applications before.



I know. Another skydiver at my dropzone already uses an older version of the concept. His helmet camera is only slightly larger than mine, and his detached recorder is not a camcorder. It's a small VCR with no optics. His system retailed for over two grand when he bought it.

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... while there may be a small chance of entanglement, if it does occur, there is the possibility of the helmet not fully clearing even when jettisoned because of the connecting cables.



Most of the helmet mounted camcorders I see don't appear to jettison easily anyway, but the setup I use can be improved in this respect, and I've already acknowledged the fact. The camera in your example is much larger. The cable attaching my camera is very small, requiring little force to break it from the camera. Technology improves.

I also considered a Panasonic SV-AV10, which is even smaller and lighter than a PC 9, uses solid state memory and requires no tape or moving parts at all. The SV-AV10 doesn't quite have the necessary resolution, frame rate or storage capacity for this application, yet, but it's very close to the mark. Within a year or two, I expect solid state technology to improve enough to be useful for freefall photography. At that point, one could build the camera completely into a helmet without wires, adding little weight and almost no entanglement risk. I've already seen these helmets, in fact.

As this technology improves, freefall photography becomes less expensive, safer and more accessible to less experienced skydivers. Old-timers will still have an advantage, because most of the skill in skydive photography is flying skill, but free fall photography is becoming more accessible, and this progress is a good thing.

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Further, believe it or not, one helmet set-up such as the one you've described has been considered responsible for a camera flyer forgetting to put his rig on and exiting the aircraft without one!



I've heard the story. I'll watch myself.

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... since it works for you, heck, continue on and let us know how it works out in the long run -- like over the course of a couple of years.



Thanks. I'll let you know.

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I don't think that in the long run you'll be very happy with the quality of the video both in terms of it's format (analog) and resolution.



I've already noted a slight decrease in video quality compared with a camcorder alone, but I'm very happy with the video quality. I linked an example. The recording format is mini-DV, not analog. The detached camera uses the sort of optics and CCD which digital camcorders use, although the signal isn't digital between the camera and the camcorder. I'm most interested in streaming video, so I wasn't looking for the highest possible video quaility, but the quality with the helmet camera is better than my first camcorder alone.

The optics and CCD are not the most complex, expensive or fragile elements of a camcorder, so detaching those elements from the recording elements offers many advantages. I've seen pinhole cameras the size of a button built into sunglasses which would fit under a full face helmet.

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And NONE of the ones I have run into have told anyone to "go piss" on, over or up anything.



Welcome to America.

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... he said something like, hang around and gain as much as you can from the conversation because you can often learn more by listening to others.



I am listening, dude. I'm also interacting as I listen. In my experience, this approach is much more educational than listening alone. Welcome to the web. If you don't want interaction, share your expertise in a book.

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Deuce, Is this thread cracking you up as much as it's cracking me up? But before I get flamed, yes, it's a serious topic, but the interactions (web based) are quite amusing...or maybe it's my lack of sleep. Oh well, at least I'll be videotaping a nekkid Tandem in 4 hours. TIGHT!
--Jairo
Low Profile, snag free helmet mount for your Sony X3000 action cam!

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