Friday the 13th 2 incidents

[Unutsch 0]

This weekend was held the Slovenian national championship in FS 4-way and 8-way. The winners were Hudièki from Andromeda Skydiving in national 4 and 8 way competition; in open 4-way team AK Zagreb 1, in open 8-way team Bridgestone Birdman.

But that's not what I wanted to share with all of you.

On Friday the 13th (what a good day for skydiving) happened two incidents, which could easyly ended a lot worse then they did.

1. under canopy collision: the 4-way jumped out the airplane, the exit didn't go off as planed, only 2 team members got together, the other 2 were somewhere in the sky. The 2-way was filmed by a camerman that was more experienced then all the others together. At deployment altitude the 2 braked away, the cameraman opened his parachute looked at it, and as he looked down, he flew throu the parachute of a girl with 120+ jumps that wasn't in the 2-way. She was fine, the cameraman got hurt on his face and legs, his suit burned. He could continue jumping.

2. On an other jump of the team the same girl couldn't open her main, AAD opened the round reserve at the same time as she managed to open her main (RAVEN II). Both canopies opened, but the main wasnt' flying allright (it spinned, pumped...). She landed and is OK, jumped again on Sunday.

The 1st incident is in my opinion fault of the cameraman. He, as the most experienced jumper in the team, should know where everyone is, not only the 2 who he could film and make great footage of. After the jump he got very mad at the girl, almost screamed at her. The poor thing got more scared then she was during the collision.

Check out the site of the Fallen Angels FreeflY Organisation:
http://www.padliangeli.org

[ernokaikkonen 0]

>The 1st incident is in my opinion fault of the cameraman.

Absolutely not.

The job of the cameraflyer is to film the 4-way doing their stuff. If some of the jumpers on the team aren't in the formation, their job is to get to the formation, and if they can't, at least find out where the formation is, and not deploy under the cameraman!

If at deployment altitude you're not sure there is no-one above you, check!. A simple barrel roll would have alerted the girl of the fact that the cameraman was above, and she could have deployed lower.

If the experience level of the jumpers doing the 4way does not allow them to keep track of each others whereabouts in the sky, they should be doing 2-ways instead.

Erno

[flyhi 24]

I have always been told that you try to get into the formation until the designated break off altitude, then track to the minimum opening altitude, clear, and pull. I have run into a lot of lower time jumpers who, if they don't get in by 5 or 6 thousand feet, they track and pull higher than normal, maybe as high as 4 grand. Dangerous stuff. One fatality at a world record attempt may have occurred for this very reason. If this team had done that, the videographer would have begun his opening sequence at 4 grand (assumed break off altitude) and the team member would have started at 2.5 to 2 thousand feet. Even if there was no horizontal separation, the vertical separation would probably (assuming no excessive snivels) be enough to avoid this situation. We seldom talk about what happens if someone doesn't get in. We probably should.

Plan the jump and jump the plan, all the way from the top to the bottom.

Shit happens. And it usually happens because of physics.

[Unutsch 0]

>The 1st incident is in my opinion fault of the cameraman.

Absolutely not.

The job of the cameraflyer is to film the 4-way doing their stuff. If some of the jumpers on the team aren't in the formation, their job is to get to the formation, and if they can't, at least find out where the formation is, and not deploy under the cameraman!

You're right. But he was in a kind their instructor, therefor he should be aware of where the whole team is.

Check out the site of the Fallen Angels FreeflY Organisation:
http://www.padliangeli.org

[PhreeZone 15]

>You're right. But he was in a kind their instructor, therefor he should be aware of where the whole team is.

When I'm filming I'm worring about the framing, the light, the angle above the formation, stuff like that. If the group gets split I pop up a bit to get more viewing area, but if the group takes off on me I'm going to the base and waiting on the group to reform. Camera has the center at deployment and you better track your ass off or we'll have words on the ground. I've ripped at least one person for short tracks and dumping in my face.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[ernokaikkonen 0]

>You're right. But he was in a kind their instructor, therefor he should be
>aware of where the whole team is.

If four people are spread out all over the sky, there's no way one person can keep track of them all.

If he was coaching the team, he should have known that the teams abilities are not up to competition 4-way.

As flyhi mentioned, if everyone had deployed at a predetermined altitude, the vertical separation would have probably been enough. This team seriously needs to learn some basics on 4-way jumping and separation in general. The video-guy needs to re-assess his attitude concerning coaching. Lowtimers(and even the more experienced people) fuck up royally sometimes. Screaming at their faces will not improve the situation. Calmly explaining the errors, and ways to prevent them, would be a much more costructive approach.

I've done both. I've tried to kill the cameraman of my 4-way team by not tracking on a bad spot. I've screamed at another (lowtime)cameraman for cutting me off during approach.

I hope I wont repeat either mistake.

Erno

[Bruno 0]

I agree with Erno
The girl made a terrible mistake, no one must be UNDER the formation, is the place where a videoman deploys his main in a 4-way FS, all others must track away from the center at break off altitude.
One question: Way the videoman didn't see the person straight below him?
Bruno

[PhreeZone 15]

Id guess if she was that low under the formation she was probally not aware of where it was and was moving around trying to find it. There was good video of something like that happening posted last summer on here. Basically a low experienced jumper was on a big way, he missed the dock, went low, tumbled, tried to get back up by hugging the ball. When they hugged the ball they put their feet out and took off like a bottle rocket. Under the formation at least 2 times trying to get back up. If this girl was doing the same the video person might not have seen her until after he threw out. Another explaination is she was just that low and could'nt be seen untill after the video person tossed and he rushed up to meet her opening canopy.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[Unutsch 0]

Screaming at their faces will not improve the situation. Calmly explaining the errors, and ways to prevent them, would be a much more costructive approach.

Well, that's exactly why I posted the thread. The girl made a mistake, she learned from it a lot, but she learned NOTHING from the cameraflyer-instructor (but to yell on everyone who will ever make a mistake on her), from whom she should leartn the most!

Why she was exactly under the cameraflyer as she deployed - no one will ever know.

Another cameraflyer on the championships was also filming a team with jumps ranging from 80 - 120. They to got thrown apart and were everywhere in the sky, but this cameraman didn't do the same mistake - he went up (way up) to see them all (he had them all in the frame, little dots that were) and even deployed a bit higher to avoid a impact. That's why I think that it is the cameramans fault. He should known better.

Check out the site of the Fallen Angels FreeflY Organisation:
http://www.padliangeli.org

[PhreeZone 15]

Ok.. this entire thread is telling me that the teams did'nt have the experience to be in a Champianship if they could'nt maintain proximity. That was the first error: Putting too little experience on a complex jump. The next error was sticking a videographer above an low experienced formation. Most video people stick with the base and assume the formation will rebuild. If the jump turns into 4, 1 ways... I'd quit filming just since I know something like that could happen. In comps its bad form on the videographer if they cause a bust on a point since it was off frame. I'd be hard pressed to pop up high to get a stragling 4th person in my sight and possibly cost a point to the team if they are just out of my vision. More errors in my opinion include not making it clear of what to do if it tumbles apart and what every one is to do on the bottom end. Also making it clear of pull altitudes is part of the problem. Either the video guy pulled low, or the jumper pulled high.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[Jessica 0]

Quote

Calmly explaining the errors, and ways to prevent them, would be a much more costructive approach.

This is very true. Getting screamed at makes someone think, What a shithead, but a calm, serious talking-to makes him or her think, I'm a shithead.

In the latter situation I'll take the advice/warning/reprimand/whatever very seriously. You just don't have any credibility if spit is flying and your face is red.

Skydiving is for cool people only

[ifallout 0]

I am pretty much with everyone else here, the camera guy did what he was supposed too and the girl did not follow the dive plan.

It does sound like she should maybe reconcider her abilities and correct their actions accordingly. Maybe do nationals in a couple of years and lots more jumps.

I also agree that the camera guy probably should not have yelled at her, but he was just nearly killed so i will give him a pass on losing his temper.

Bill

have fun, love life, be nice to the humans

[SkyMissy 0]

Quote

Why she was exactly under the cameraflyer as she deployed - no one will ever know.

If everybody lived, I would suggest they get back together and figure out why. That is the only way anything positive will come of this.

________________________________________________
Mike

[skybaby 0]

It sounds more like these people are not trained to jump in 4-way...In no way is a camera person responsible for a team. If you can't fly it and be safe...Don't do it. Why are such low number jumpers all on one team? This just does not sound safe.

[Luminous 0]

Quote

Quote

If everybody lived, I would suggest they get back together and figure out why. That is the only way anything positive will come of this.

This is the MOST sensible response so far. Great idea that should be followed by those particpants.
IMO

'In an insane society a sane person seems insane.' Mr. Spock

[RichM 0]

Quote

Why she was exactly under the cameraflyer as she deployed - no one will ever know.

She should, and if not someone should help her work out why - she nearly killed the camera man. Canopies flown by camera flyers general snivel for a thousand feet, it saves them having their neck broken by the rapid deceleration of 50lb of camera gear attached to their head. The cameraman normally deploys in place, that column of air is theirs.

Was she low on the formation and dumped in place and above normal pull altutude? That might have killed the formation members too. Was she off to the side and couldn't see the formation, tracked in a random direction and ended up under the camera man? There are lots of possibilities.

Whatever the cause, the result clearly suggests that she is not ready to be part of a 4 way team. But it is important to gain the learning value from this experience.

I agree the cameraman yelling does not help her, but she nearly killed him. He was probably very scared and shaken and emotional. Near death experiences do that to most people.

If you know her see if you can figure out what happened for her. Good luck.

Rich M

[Spy38W 0]

Quote

Canopies flown by camera flyers general snivel for a thousand feet, it saves them having their neck broken by the rapid deceleration of 50lb of camera gear attached to their head...

You write for a newpaper, don't you?

--
Hook high, flare on time

[PhreeZone 15]

>Canopies flown by camera flyers general snivel for a thousand feet, it saves them having their neck broken by the rapid deceleration of 50lb of camera gear attached to their head. The cameraman normally deploys in place, that column of air is theirs.


A few points here: the 1000 foot sinvel is about as common as pictures of ghosts. 50 pounds of camera gear is Imax camera range, no neck can stand up to that. anything over about 15 should be mounted inanother way. I complain at 2 pounds for a DV camera.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[jimmytavino 16]

Wow, I know some camera people have been elevated to Saintly status,,, and probably well deserved, but FIFTY pounds is funny, and 800 foot snivels I can live with, but 1000 footers is almost extreme,,, but thanks for the smile,,When people,
especially non jumpers, see my helmet set-up,(with a Sony VX-1000, side by side with a Sony DCR-TRV7,
and a Canon Rebel 2000 35mm on the front) they sometimes ask me, "Is THAT heavy???" I say, "In freefall,,, its weightless,,,, but at opening it's 4 G's" !!!.. jimmyt

[RichM 0]

Hehe, ok I might have exaggerated a bit with 50 lbs, my kit probably wieghs less than 10lbs . But my crossfire has 1000ft snivels everytime which is why I chuck at 3200ft

Rich M

[Bruno 0]

lesson in this thread:
before competing
Before join a 4 way team
before doing RW bigger than 2 way, there is a lot to learn, in safety and technique.
Don't be in hurry for hot skydive, till your skill and safety knowledge are at the right level.
Bruno

[howardwhite 4]

"50 pounds of camera gear is Imax camera range"

Do a Google search on Imax skydiving to see how it has been done by several people.

HW

[alan 1]

Quote

But my crossfire has 1000ft snivels everytime which is why I chuck at 3200ft

Man, I've explained this one sooooo often. Have someone video your opening and watch the time on the camera. Do you chuck at 3200' or is that what you perceivce your altimweter reading to be at the time you decide to chuck? How do you define a snivel? Chuck until slider down or canopy out of bag and slider down? How about slider 3/4 down, which is generally taught as a good canopy? Do you realize you are moving at 176'/sec while you look at the alti? Do you know that there is a lag of a hundred or twohundred feet on your alti in freefall?I've seen/video'd a few tandem *openings* that have taken a thousand feet, but they have been pretty rare in my experience. I have yet to see anyone verify 1000' "snivels every time" on video, but then I've only been doing this for over ten years and have only been on a few thousand jumps, more than just a few on several different Crossfires.

See if this scenario fits.

Assume you have the pc in your hand and are
"waiting" for 3200'
Look at alti and "see" 3200' (after you have tracked
and waved off)
Possible parallax error, lose 50' to 100'
Brain processes image, lose another 50'
Lag in altimeter catching up with descent, lose
100'to 200'
Actually decide to release the pc, lose 50'
Line stretch and canopy out of bag, lose 100'
Actual "snivel" portion of deployment, lose 500'
Get "squared away" and check alti, lose 50'

Using the conservative side of the numbers that gets you "in the saddle" at about 2300'. Maybe you get a 600' snivel and your alti lags 200'. At any rate, you are sure going to "see" something that looks a lot like a 1000' snivel, especially if you are a newer jumper, although I see some very experienced people do the same thing. Hell, maybe you pitch at 3200' and are in the saddle at 2000'. You may have travelled 1200' during your opening, but the actual snivel would still only be around 800'.

I'll bet you've guessed by now that this 1000' "snivel" thing is a pet peeve of mine. It is a pet peeve because altitude awareness is....well, you know how important that is. Have a good one and sometime try to get a few vids of your whole opening. It'll be fun to analyze.

alan

[RichM 0]

Hehe, sorry to trigger your relapse

But now you put it like that, you're very probably right. Fwiw, I'd not thought about it in that detail, I just have slams, normals and snivels; these being approximated by the altitude lost between starting the reach and looking at the alti under an inflated canopy; rather than a measure of how long the canopy has the slider up.

I completely accept my error and I sure wish I hadn't posted that paragraph now . Now where's my beer!

Rich M

[AndyMan 7]

Quote

"50 pounds of camera gear is Imax camera range"

Do a Google search on Imax skydiving to see how it has been done by several people.

You're right, it has. However it hasn't been helmet mounted, but chest mounted, attaching to a large ring on the harness, plus a belly band.

You do NOT want to put 50 pounds on your head.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.