4 Way exits - scratch team

[nigel99 143]

I'm curious to see what the consensus is. This weekend we have competitive 4 way, but due to a couple of issues we have ended up with a scratch team. Experience in the team ranges from about 250/300 jumps to 1500 jumps.

Conventional wisdom says you take out the first point, but it means that every exit is going to be different, and the likelihood of a funnel is high.

What is the view on taking out a solid simple exit and then just transitioning to the first point? The reason I like this approach, is that it will build consistency during the day and is less likely to get messy. Specifically I'm thinking of something like the stairstep diamond or meeker. Coaching novices the stairstep holds on the majority of the exits.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[jtiflyer 0]

Most common exits are "E"(meeker), "H"(bow), and "P"(sidebody).

I just finished the US Nationals with a pickup team (great group of guys). The used "P" all 10 rounds with great success.

Of course this all depends on what plane you are exiting from.

[Skydivesg 6]

I agree that you should simplify the dives by taking out one or two easy - solid exits and transition quickly to the first point. The more confident the team gets as the meet goes on, the quicker the move to the first point. The exit sets the mood for the entire dive.

I disagree on which exits. I have found that the meeker can be very challenging for younger jumpers especially if the outside center is not used to that position. The diamond can provide the same issues, as the OC has to take the knee of the tail and thus lends himself to poor presentation.

I've had the best luck with newer jumpers using H & O - Bow and Satellite.

BTW Airspeed won a world meet in the 90s using only two exits from a right hand door.


Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be.

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Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be.

[nigel99 143]

Skydivesg

I agree that you should simplify the dives by taking out one or two easy - solid exits and transition quickly to the first point. The more confident the team gets as the meet goes on, the quicker the move to the first point. The exit sets the mood for the entire dive.

I disagree on which exits. I have found that the meeker can be very challenging for younger jumpers especially if the outside center is not used to that position. The diamond can provide the same issues, as the OC has to take the knee of the tail and thus lends himself to poor presentation.

I've had the best luck with newer jumpers using H & O - Bow and Satellite.

BTW Airspeed won a world meet in the 90s using only two exits from a right hand door.


Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be.

.

Ok thanks for the feedback guys. BTW the plane is a Caravan. I can see Bow being a good one.

If the rest of the team agrees, I'm going to push for us to go with the one exit (Bow - H). We are unlikely to get more than 5 rounds in, and I am sure that swapping exits around is going to result in a 50/50 funnel rate.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[Remster 24]

Quote

I've had the best luck with newer jumpers using H & O - Bow and Satellite.

Agreed. I don't like E's either. B's and P's I don't mind tho, but the P works best with a headjam, and that can make some new jumpers apprehensive (no reason for it, but you don't want to do something completely new like this on a comp jump IMO)

Remster

[NWFlyer 2]

nigel99

Ok thanks for the feedback guys. BTW the plane is a Caravan. I can see Bow being a good one.

If the rest of the team agrees, I'm going to push for us to go with the one exit (Bow - H). We are unlikely to get more than 5 rounds in, and I am sure that swapping exits around is going to result in a 50/50 funnel rate.

I was just on a team for Nationals that was pretty much a pickup team - a couple hours of tunnel and 15 training jumps (11 from a Caravan, and 4 from an Otter the day before the comp). Our tail was a fairly new jumper, and as OC I was flying a new slot (my limited 4-way experience has almost all been as IC). IC and Point had a moderate amount of 4-way experience and were in their normal slots.

We tried a few different exits (B, D, E, F, H) in training and wound up settling on F as our "happy place." I mentioned that to a few four-way rock stars at Nationals and they were surprised (since F can be "hinge-y"), but it really worked for our group. For 8 of our 10 jumps at Nats, we used the F, for the other two we used the E (we figured for the jump where E was the first point, we had to go with it!). Launching a rock-solid exit really set the tone for our jumps, and we were 10 for 10 on clean exits at Nationals.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[rehmwa 2]

When I coach rookie teams, I go with H and P

No head jams required for either, but I do ask OC (P) and Tail (H and P) to prioritize holding onto the plane with the left hand and taking the right hand grip in the jam. Better leverage and timing. They can pick up the left hand on go, or even slightly before, frankly.


etc:
On H, it's legal for the point to take a grip on the OC if that helps - at least on the exit if the OC isn't very strong in the door.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Zlew 0]

IMO, launching the first point every time is great if your skill level is high enough to do each one, rock solid each time. We did a lot of review of our exits and in most cases found that if the exit wasn't rock solid (presenting perfect, no rotation etc.) it was better to launch a sure thing and grip switch to the first point.

They key is time to the first point , followed closely by time to the second point. So it is fantastic if you get a great exit that doesn't need time to un-fuck itself, and has no momentum and allows you to cleanly move to the 2nd point. But if you Frisbee an exit out of the plane and tail goes flying out when you break grips... or if it gets cut in and has to unfold so you can see the grips...or you go flying away from camera because it balls up or gets cut in... you are doing more harm than good.

We had a comp this year where we launched an H and everyone else launched the M. We timed it, and we beat every team (even in the division above us) to the second point because they all rotation and/or stability to deal with.

H and P seem to be the way to go for exits you don't have time to train/practice.

E's can be hit or miss. Some teams nail them from their first attempt, and others struggle with them.

Edit to add- Remember, if you blow the exit up, you typically will lose ~1/3rd of your working time.

[Zlew 0]

NWFlyer

We tried a few different exits (B, D, E, F, H) in training and wound up settling on F as our "happy place." I mentioned that to a few four-way rock stars at Nationals and they were surprised (since F can be "hinge-y"), .

That's really cool that you ended up with the F. That isn't one I would have guessed. What is your team name? I might want to stalk the Omniskore vids.

[NWFlyer 2]

Zlew

***

We tried a few different exits (B, D, E, F, H) in training and wound up settling on F as our "happy place." I mentioned that to a few four-way rock stars at Nationals and they were surprised (since F can be "hinge-y"), .

That's really cool that you ended up with the F. That isn't one I would have guessed. What is your team name? I might want to stalk the Omniskore vids.

Yeah, pretty much everyone had that reaction. One reason it worked well for us is that I (OC) have had some left shoulder issues lately, so holding on with both arms helped me quite a bit.

Team was The Diplomats. I believe we used F for Rounds 1-7 and 10. It gave us a pretty reasonable transition for a lot of first points in the comp.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[mrvagher 0]

A bit of interesting info - the team that won Nationals this year in intermediate launched an H every time- even when the first point was an E.

[Zlew 0]

mrvagher

A bit of interesting info - the team that won Nationals this year in intermediate launched an H every time- even when the first point was an E.

And their camera guy is sexy as hell!

[Remster 24]

Zlew

***A bit of interesting info - the team that won Nationals this year in intermediate launched an H every time- even when the first point was an E.

And their camera guy is sexy as hell!

mmm... Results may vary.

Remster

[mrvagher 0]

Did not know you were on the team - Congrats. You guys turned conventional wisdom upside down...sure got me to thinking. We are always told new teams learn a few exits like E,P,H and then you need to learn more exits if you want to advance. Really?? You guys won nationals and used a single exit - kudos for thinking outside the box..

[Zlew 0]

Remi thinks I'm sexy, don't let him fool you.

Thanks for the congrats! It was a great adventure for sure.

For the sake of the story- we didn't train for every exit, but did train quite a few (a dozen or so) and by the end of the season had a list of exits we felt strong enough about to use at Nationals. The all H thing was kinda happenstance, and a little bit of strategy. H is usually rock solid for us and a quick transition for many points. The way the draw worked out, we were planning on H for most of them (not all....) but then when the comp got under way and things started to unfold it seemed like the best strategic move. When things were close we had to consider the risk/reward of maybe gaining a point best case...vs risking 3-4 worst case. The 6 in round 10 was a good example. He have a good 6 exit, but had a nice (but not unbeatable) lead going into round 10. It seemed smart to take the H and risk giving up a point on the hill, but limit our risk of losing 3-4 (and maybe the lead....) if the 6 went wonky.

So we didn't go into nationals only training for, or only planning on using a single exit....but it worked out quite well for us.

[Ron 7]

I'd do in order:

Bow (H)
Sidebody (P)
Meker (E)
Diamond (B)

Honestly the bow transitions just as well as the P. The E is easy, but I would not try it if you have never done it before. The B is easy, just let it roll out.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[nigel99 143]

Ron

I'd do in order:

Bow (H)
Sidebody (P)
Meker (E)
Diamond (B)

Honestly the bow transitions just as well as the P. The E is easy, but I would not try it if you have never done it before. The B is easy, just let it roll out.

Thanks guys. We took H out for all rounds (funneled it once) and end result was Silver medal for State championships

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[elightle 8]

Thanks for this post! I learned a thing or two about exits. Guess I'll move the H exit up the list a bit. :)

[Travman 6]

I often use F's with a new group to emphasize flying your slot. H is an old favourite as a solid exit. E is highly reliant on the OC nailing the exit, which as others have said can be hit and miss.

I've always been taught to take the first point as the exit but are more teams are focussing on tunnel as their training tool I see them using a handful of exits and transitioning.

[elightle 8]

Travman

...more teams are focussing on tunnel as their training tool I see them using a handful of exits and transitioning.

I believe the team who won Intermediate at last year's USPA Nationals did an H exit for the entire competition. Of course, that's not gonna win in the Open class.

[NWFlyer 2]

elightle

***...more teams are focussing on tunnel as their training tool I see them using a handful of exits and transitioning.

I believe the team who won Intermediate at last year's USPA Nationals did an H exit for the entire competition. Of course, that's not gonna win in the Open class.

See post 11.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[elightle 8]

NWFlyer

******...more teams are focussing on tunnel as their training tool I see them using a handful of exits and transitioning.

I believe the team who won Intermediate at last year's USPA Nationals did an H exit for the entire competition. Of course, that's not gonna win in the Open class.

See post 11.

Yea, I forgot about that post. Haven't visited this tread for a while.