Videos of 4-way camera flyer exits

[jtiflyer 0]

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So knowing whether to lead, trail or other comes after getting experience with a team and knowing how they exit?

What do you do before that point though?

If you are filming a new team that you've not really jumped with before for training jumps is there a "better" exit to do when you don't know anything about how the exit will be - flat or steep? As I'm a newbie camera flyer, any team I film will fall into that category, so just want to know if there is a "better" exit to use? Like I said, all I've done so far is leading exits, and they seem to have gone ok. Best to just stick with what I'm comfortable until I get to know the people and how they go? Kind of answering my own question here I think!

trailing is safer for beginner teams. Harder to miss a count when you trail, also they will usually take a while to break the first point, which gives you time to get into position.

[Zlew 0]

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What are the benefits of doing a trailing exit? It just seems to me like you stand a good chance of the formation being more or less side on at the early stages so more likely to bust a grip. Or is that less likely than messing up a leading exit completely and making more busts?

Timing is much more simple on trailing, and t he risk of leaving too early or hitting the formation on exit is lower. Main drawback is it is easy to miss grips on steep formations and with teams that are turning points quickly on the hill.

It is a good one to have in your toolkit though. I use trailing "when in doubt" or when things are not working out correctly. If things are not going to plan on climb out, you can always trail.

[rehmwa 2]

Leading - I've been burned more than once with newer teams, not only is the count a gamble, but they seem to launch flatter instead of a nice steep presentation (noted above) - but this is another thing newer teams do - forget the air and try to flatten too soon - it makes a lead exit even trickier.


Leading or peeling, there's one bit of advice that's helped me also (more so for leading exits which I prefer). While waiting for the count, I keep my aim pointed low and outside - the wheel of the Otter for example. The team will tend to more easily just drop right into frame and gives me one less thing to think about in terms of keeping them in frame. I tend to leave between set and go unless the count is really slow. then I just try to anticipate the go and pop my wings early. If someone is leaving, that's a pretty good indication it's my turn too...

Edit: But I do wonder if there is a set expectation of what needs to be in frame on climbout. I'd not want to bust because I'm "too far out" - you can still see motion...Anyone comment on this?

BTW - I'm an outside center. There is absolutely no good reason for "most" exits for the Outside center NOT to give a big ol count with his leg (presenting) leg. It helps the vidiot, it helps the exit. Our camera guy always asked for "more Cowbell" - i.e., a big ol' leg count. he got it every time - even on head jams. It's only too big a count if you literally pull the point out of the plane with his grip on that leg - even then, they should just toughen up and keep the grip (yes, Steve, I'm talking about you).


lastly - got a lot of hints when I started from Quade's website - you might need to do a search on 'futurecam' and 'quade' and 'skydiving'

If it's still there.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Zlew 0]

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Edit: But I do wonder if there is a set expectation of what needs to be in frame on climbout. I'd not want to bust because I'm "too far out" - you can still see motion...Anyone comment on this?
.

From the SCM- Working time starts the moment any team member (excluding the videographer) separates from the aircraft, as determined by the judges; if Judges cannot determine the start of the working time, the following procedure will be followed:
a. Working time will start as the videographer separates from the aircraft; and,
b. A penalty equal to 20 percent (rounded down) of the score for that jump will be deducted from the score for that jump.


****
That's for comp. Beyond that your team/coach may have specific requests so they can debrief the exits. They will want to see as much of that first second as possible to figure out where any issues/problems from exits are coming from.

[PhreeZone 14]

Leading works great if you have a leg count but if you are working with a "shake" team it is extremely easy to get burned since what you see as a shake might just be a leg adjustment and then you end up leaving way to early.

When in doubt - trail.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[rehmwa 2]

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From the SCM- Working time starts the moment any team member (excluding the videographer) separates from the aircraft, as determined by the judges; if Judges cannot determine the start of the working time, the following procedure will be followed:
a. Working time will start as the videographer separates from the aircraft; and,
b. A penalty equal to 20 percent (rounded down) of the score for that jump will be deducted from the score for that jump..

Thanks, focusing low and out (at least like I was taught) still shows the team and the exit clearly.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

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Leading works great if you have a leg count but if you are working with a "shake" team it is extremely easy to get burned since what you see as a shake might just be a leg adjustment and then you end up leaving way to early.

When in doubt - trail.

It's always good to talk very specifically to the vidiot and key out exactly how the exit stages - and his input should be very primary whenever possible (IMHO). We knew there is sometimes adjustments, etc. So we went with the OC leg went out very slowly and become very still (drying your crotch in breeze)...pause...then the BIG count.

new teams, absolutely, if there is any doubt, I'd always hold for the trail - not as pretty, but if they are not predictable, there's usually time to get the shot.....or the funnel and recovery....as applicable....

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[degeneration 5]

Another question about the flight after the exit.

What steepness of angle is preferred? Directly overhead or slightly angled? With the former I've noticed I encounter the burble, so have not been as comfortable getting in that close. When slightly off, I've been more comfortable getting in closer, but then there are obvious problems with potential missed grips due to the angle.

In general, what's the preference? Should I just zoom my main camera in a bit more and stick with where I'm comfortable directly above? Or get closer?

Sky Switches - Affordable stills camera tongue switches and conversion adaptors, supporting various brands of camera (Canon, Sony, Nikon, Panasonic).

[Zlew 0]

This should be a simple answer, but it is not.

The ideal frame is pretty steep and pretty close. If you get too steep (on top of them) all the wing in the world can't keep you from falling on top of them. Obviously, the closer you are the higher the risk is as well.

It is all about judgeable video. You need to be close enough and steep enough that you can see all the grips.


For rookie teams, many times you may need to fly a little further out as they tend to move, and "breathe" during blocks and between formations (Blocks like 1 ,13, 15, 20, and 22 can take up some major real-estate when learning them). Not only taking up more space on the points, but also sliding around the sky a bit during the skydive. More experienced teams can do almost all the blocks and stay in a space similar to a wind tunnel and tend to fall right down the tube (which is great for you!). I set up my cameras/ring with these distances in mind with my current team

My first year with my team my goal was to have at least 50% of the vertical frame filled with the team at all points during the skydiving. This year I am shooting for 75%, and the videos that I drool over keep them in the 80-90% range.

I'd be careful with zooming, as it will amplify shake/vibration and may make exit frames difficult.

For most camera jumpers, you start a little too high, and a little too far out, and work your way in as your skill (and your teams skill) increase.

With my main lens (.8) I try to fly about 12 (edit- 12 is on the high side. 9-12 usually is best for me)feet up with my head about 1-2 feet off the feet of whoever is below me. With my .5, to get the same frame I have to be several feet closer. Try to pay attention to the dirt dives to anticipate how people will move, and what formations you may need to give a little more space to.

[Zlew 0]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BmKtl_b28M

[degeneration 5]

This question almost certainly belongs in the camera and video forum, but since it is related to your post I'll ask here anyway.

I currently have a 0.43x lens on my cx115. That obviously makes it quite wide angle. So I'd just been zooming it in to narrow the FOV. I had the thinking that a zoomed 0.43x would be the same as a non zoomed 0.6x or whatever. I assume this isn't a great idea?

So what sort of lens should I have? Is the 0.8 that you mention optimal for 4 way? Or being less experienced should I be going for someting wider?

Sky Switches - Affordable stills camera tongue switches and conversion adaptors, supporting various brands of camera (Canon, Sony, Nikon, Panasonic).

[Zlew 0]

This is another one where if you ask 10 camera guys you will get 10 answers. I have seen great video (4way) shot with things as wide as a GoPro to as narrow as a CX without a wide angle lens.

Trunk has a page somewhere that has several lenses listed and the pro/con of each one (will look for the link). *edit- adding url http://www.gethypoxic.com/reviews-tests-hacks/camera-insights/61-cx100.html

I started with the .55 because it was super low profile, and that is what I used to shoot tandems with. I found it did really well for exit shots, but for me it was a little too wide for freefall; was easy to have the team too "small" in the frame. Not as much as with wider/fisheye type lenses, but while it is more forgiving in some ways by being "wide" it can be less forgiving in others, as smaller changes in your distance to the target with a wider lens will cause a bigger change in how "close" the subject appears compared to a more narrow lens.

I got the .8x on a whim. It is a sony lens, light and low profile and cost under 100 bucks. I couldn't find anyone who had jumped it, so I thought I'd give it a shot. I am really happy with it so far. It is a little tight on exit, but overall I really like the framing I can get with it. Very clear with enough wide angle, but not over the top. For now I use this lens as my standard one camera lens, and then use the .55 as my backup for competitions. I do my rangefinding for the .8x and then the .55 can back me up and pick things if I mess up and have something go out of frame with the .8 (not really a problem, but I like the idea of the backup being wider... esp. for some rally long exits like block 1).

Trunks link also talks about which lens you can zoom and which you can't... I'll try to track it down.

Get some jumps on what you have now and review your own work. You should have an idea of the type of framing/angle you are looking for. If you get to the point where you think the lens is one of the things you can change to improve...try some other lenses. But I bet early on you will get more mileage out of really working on your exits and your ability to fly around your head and always stay in proximity.

[degeneration 5]

Will do!

Weather and people to film... been lacking in both recently! But will be trying to sort out the latter asap.

Cheers for all the info and advice. It is very much appreciated.

Sky Switches - Affordable stills camera tongue switches and conversion adaptors, supporting various brands of camera (Canon, Sony, Nikon, Panasonic).

[loudtom 5]

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Cheers for all the info and advice. It is very much appreciated.

Even by those sitting on the sidelines getting ready for the season too. This thread and my discussions with my friends have given me a direction and an opportunity to be the best I can for my team.
Thanks!!!

tom #90 #54 #08 and now #5 with a Bronze :-)

[degeneration 5]

Did my first team training filming jumps at the weekend. First time filming a proper 4 way.

Advice from here helped a lot, but putting it into practice was difficult at times!

I got better throughout the 8 jumps we did. I got more comfortable getting closer, so I was able to rely less on the zoom to get the team nicely in frame (the zooming in did result in noticeable wobble in the video).

My current comfort position is WAY closer than where I thought I would be!! And the zoom on my CX is more out than I was expecting too. So I'm very pleased with my progress.

Exits are the main thing I need to work on.

Once I've got the video of the jumps edited to just the jumps, would one of the experienced camera jumpers on here mind giving the videos a bit of a debrief for me? Wasn't able to find anyone at the DZ to do that as most people had left by the time we left!

Sky Switches - Affordable stills camera tongue switches and conversion adaptors, supporting various brands of camera (Canon, Sony, Nikon, Panasonic).

[loudtom 5]

Thanks for the update. I am waiting for the team to get together with some good weather to experience what you have. This thread has helped a tremendous amount and I too hope I can put into practice what I have envisioned hundreds of times already.
lt

tom #90 #54 #08 and now #5 with a Bronze :-)

[degeneration 5]

Well, here's the video of the 8 jumps we did at the weekend.

Critical feedback welcomed from experienced camera flyers please!

The 2nd jump I used the footage from my secondary camera, as the zoom on the primary on that jump put some people out of frame.

Some of the wobble in the video I believe is due to my primary camera shaking slightly during the jumps, as comparing its footage with the secondary camera's, the secondary has negligible shake or wobble. I originally thought it was all down to me not keeping my head still, but the secondary's footage for the latter jumps showed that it was staying quite still.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VkOU-bb0wOI

Sky Switches - Affordable stills camera tongue switches and conversion adaptors, supporting various brands of camera (Canon, Sony, Nikon, Panasonic).

[loudtom 5]

Looks like great fun and you did pretty good I would say. You know what they say is the best way for us to get better...
lt

tom #90 #54 #08 and now #5 with a Bronze :-)

[jtiflyer 0]

Overall all pretty good for a newer 4-way team. Just some quick stuff

1. No matter what anybody says Caravan exits are not the same as an otter. The air is just different possibly due to prop location.

2. Gotta let go of the door sooner and trust your grip on the bar. Sooner or later they will pin your hand in the door, and that sucks.

3. I don't know what kind of suit you are flying or your body type. But as soon as you let go of the bar you need to start tracking up the hill. The horizontal distance from the team on exit is crucial, it will dictate if they are in frame and if you are in danger of hitting their burble on the hill.

4. The freefall footage was very solid. If you are used to shooting tandem video you usually are lifting your chin. 4-way is the opposite, you usually want to tuck your chin a little. The way I think of it is putting whoever is in the bottom of the frame more towards the center. It helps keep everybody in frame. Also if the top person is starting to leave frame its easier to lift your chin a little.

5. Learn the point of no return when flying over them. Only way to know it is to find it. Let the team know you might land on them once or twice to find where not to be. Best thing to do when you do find it is not to try to stay up but instead just track through the burble.

6. And of Course Jump, Jump, Jump. Only way to get better is to keep training.

[degeneration 5]

1. We'll be doing most of our training from a Caravan, then the Nationals will be from a G92... won't find out what it is like until the day unfortunately!

2. Yeah, was noticing that. Was always waiting until someone else was out to deflect some of the prop blast. Will make more effort to let go sooner in future jumps.

3. Got a 2 piece camera suit. Front of legs and torso is slick fast fall material. Bottoms have booties. I'm about 10.5 stone and am wearing 8lbs of lead on these dives. Will definitely work on tracking up hill sooner, or rather immediately.

4. I'm not used to shooting anything. These were my first proper dedicated camera jumps. I've used camera when filming FS students, but that is just flying in my normal belly position. Will work more on tucking my chin in and framing the bottom person more in the middle.

5. I was getting closer with each jump, pretty much. Jump 1 and 2, I was compensating for distance away by having the camera zoomed in more. 3, 4 and 5 it was zoomed out a bit, then 6, 7 and 8 zoomed out further again. I'm still off centre when flying with them, so I'm not feeling their burble. Should I therefore be a bit more above them and close enough to feel their burble?

6. 25th may is our next training weekend, so a bit of a wait unfortunately.


thanks for the feedback. It is much appreciated!

Sky Switches - Affordable stills camera tongue switches and conversion adaptors, supporting various brands of camera (Canon, Sony, Nikon, Panasonic).

[Zlew 0]

Some good info for sure.

Caravans are very different IMO. More prop blast for sure, and on the caravan I jump, the step is significantly closer to the door (making it harder to get back for the best exit frame).

If he is going to stick with the leading exit (which is fine), the timing and getting back on top of them tips about tracking up and not leaving too early is really important. It is very easy to miss grips (get busts!) in the transition (when you are looking at the side of their rigs).

I would really focus on the shake in the camera. Check your mount to the helmet, the box or whatever he is using to attach the camera to the camera, and the camera itself for the right settings/zoom/ firm lens etc. Also make sure the helmet fits snugly, and focus on keeping your head steady.

Overall, not bad! keep working on it and you will be fine!

[Zlew 0]

also, zooming in will increase shake.

Try walking around looking through binoculars, the more you zoom in the more any movement will be amplified in the image.

[gearless_chris 1]

See if you can get the team to give you a nice, "Shake Shake Shake, Ready, Set, Go" for the count, and do it at a consistent speed. I cut off the "Shake Shake Shake" of the 4 way exit, but you can see it in the 8-way exit around 2:30. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NL9FKe8XokI&list=UUthB5kWQ5inWhTV3YMnzEcg&index=11

"If it wasn't easy stupid people couldn't do it", Duane.

My momma said I could be anything I wanted when I grew up, so I became an a$$hole.

[Zlew 0]

That's one of the reasons I do the exit that I do now (leaving with them, not leading them). A good visible exit count is fantastic when you can get one, but it isn't always possible. More and more teams give the count from Inside Center, and depending on what they are launching it can be very difficult if not impossible to see the shakes or the count. With my current team, and my team from last year, most of their exits, I just see Outside Center and Tails butts sticking out the door. Everything and everyone else is inside the plane.

You also run the risk of "ready set no" leaving you in freefall looking up at your team poised beautiful on the plane. Leaving at the same time allows you to forget about the count all together. Just go when they go.

[Remster 24]

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That's one of the reasons I do the exit that I do now (leaving with them, not leading them). A good visible exit count is fantastic when you can get one, but it isn't always possible. More and more teams give the count from Inside Center, and depending on what they are launching it can be very difficult if not impossible to see the shakes or the count. With my current team, and my team from last year, most of their exits, I just see Outside Center and Tails butts sticking out the door. Everything and everyone else is inside the plane.

You also run the risk of "ready set no" leaving you in freefall looking up at your team poised beautiful on the plane. Leaving at the same time allows you to forget about the count all together. Just go when they go.

Even Tails sometimes "misses" the count see at 1:28: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10151516282124165&set=vb.202137893432&type=2&theater

Remster