Videos of 4-way camera flyer exits

[degeneration 5]

Not sure if this is the right forum, hopefully it is.

I'm looking to do a bit of studying of some video footage. Does anyone have links to a video that shows good 4-way cameraman exits?

I'm wanting to improve my camera flying, but with the shit weather we've been having, I've not had much/any practice in a while. So I've figured watching good examples of what to do on exit would be a decent thing to do in the downtime.

I realise that there won't often be video footage of a cameraman filming a team, but I'm sure there is some out there somewhere!

So any links would be appreciated.

Sky Switches - Affordable stills camera tongue switches and conversion adaptors, supporting various brands of camera (Canon, Sony, Nikon, Panasonic).

[Remster 24]

Just to be clear: you want outside video of the 4way and the videot, showing the videot's exits?

And I use the term "videot" with the utmost affection. Some of my best friends are videots! I even had one home for dinner once!

Remster

[degeneration 5]

Yeah, I was hoping to see videos of seeing the entire 4 way + videot exiting. i.e. there would be 2 camera flyers on the jump - one filming the 4 way, the other filming the 4 way and the videot.

I know there aren't many cases where this would happen, but I have seen on some promo vids for teams and places jumps where there is a 2nd camera man filming the whole thing. So I'm just looking for any videos that people know of that show good exits of the cameraman so I can study what they do, so I can have the visualisation side of things done well.

Weather's been shit, so had any practice in the air for quite a while.

Sky Switches - Affordable stills camera tongue switches and conversion adaptors, supporting various brands of camera (Canon, Sony, Nikon, Panasonic).

[Zlew 0]

depending on the exit style...it will be hard to get. Few 4 way teams have inside (inside the 4 way) video that would show the video guy in position.

Best bet would be a DZ that has a wing cam...but I can't think of any off hand.

You can learn a lot by just watching 4 way video and trying to figure out where/how the video guys are climbing out. I watched tons of videos from Nationals/World meet from the top teams to see the ways that the best out there were exiting. That's how I came up with the technique I'm using now.

Watch the videos and look to see what you like the best. What is the proximity, angle, view that you are comfortable with and also makes for the best and most judgeable video.

Different exits have different pros/cons. Sometimes you might need to learn different exits for different formations.

Things to watch for-

IMO, the 3 most important things are- where you are after climb out. When you leave, and where you go/how you leave the airplane
What type of exit are they using - Leading, trailing, or leaving at the same time. What does that timing look like (when are they going).

Where are they? Hand in the door, Both hands on a handle, one hand on a handle? leaning back? leaning forward? Standing high on the step? Down lower?

Exits really can be an art/science. There are a million ways to do them, and everyone has their own ideas about what the "best" way to do them is. And the best way for a rookie team might be very different than the best for a seasoned team.

Watch lots of video. Watch for mistakes... use slow motion. Talk to people!

Z

[Zlew 0]

Also- most of the promo videos for my teams have been shot with the other video guy diving out after our team. On most planes it wouldn't be possible to get another camera guy out on the step in a way where you could really see the primary camera guy (and not mess up his normal exit).

[degeneration 5]

Will do. Will get watching the top teams' videos and see what I can get from them.

What I was hoping to get was things like body position on the hill, how inflated the wings were, angle of the body with respect to the plane/team on the hill. I've heard that some camera flyers try to get their body under the plane to stay out of the team's burble, so was wanting to see how that is done. Some of these things can probably be inferred from the POV footage, I guess the rest will have to come from speaking to people, coaching and practice!

I'm new to camera flying, but want to be serious with it as I envisage that's the discipline I'm going to be focusing on over the next quite a few seasons, so just want to learn/understand as much as I can.

Sky Switches - Affordable stills camera tongue switches and conversion adaptors, supporting various brands of camera (Canon, Sony, Nikon, Panasonic).

[Zlew 0]

Mod types- this might get more feedback in the photo/vid section.

Omniskore would be a great place to start. They have all the rounds for Nationals posted (let me know if you need links)

For body position, it depends on a lot of things and there isn't one right answer. It depends on what type of exit you are trying (leading/trailing/same time), the formation the team is pulling off, and how things are going in that exact moment (sometimes you will be wings collapsed arching like hell, other times giving as much wing as you can to get that separation to keep them in frame right off the plane. Trailing exit body position is different than the others.

As far as getting under the plane (disclaimer...this is just me, how I do things...others will disagree). I try to exit at the same time as the team (not leading or trailing), and I dont try to get under the plane, but I try to stay right next to it. When I exit I think step BACK, not step out. *edit- I also try to get as far back and away from the door when I am on the step. On most exit points, the team has enough momentum that they will end up a few feet out (towards the wing tip) and as long as I go directly back I have my own clean air to fly in. I exit back and have a specific exit frame I shoot for that keeps me looking at their backs the entire time (will post some pics when I get home) and as I rotate on top of the hill, I make a 90 degree turn and I am right over them and never in the burble.

None of that really applies when doing a trailing exit (but that is IMO the easiest to learn and a good one to have in your toolkit).

[loudtom 5]

Thanks you guys. I am going to be doing video for former students of mine that are forming a four way team this year to compete locally. While I have done video for Aff while taking students and I have exited with tandems from the video step I imagine teams have their own dynamic with each jump. This thread has been a great start to a great summer. Thanks again. I enjoy reading newer jumpers express themselves with intelligent questions and show interest in learning the correct techniques, and I have gained a lot of new knowledge from the responses myself.
Tom

tom #90 #54 #08 and now #5 with a Bronze :-)

[Zlew 0]

I had high hopes of getting some frame grabs...but my PMB is acting buggy and crashing (son-of-a). Only managed to grab one, and it is of a trailing exit (from a caravan...I can't get as far back as I like on the caravan to do the exit I prefer to do out of Otters).

The 4 Two.jpg file is a little later in the exit than I wanted to post (grabbed an actual still, not screen grab). This pic is from about 1.5 seconds into the exit and leaving at the same time. Should give you an idea of the exit frame I like though. On the hill with my head even with the middle of the formation and in the clean air to their right of the formation. Line of flight would be perpendicular to the highway below. You can already see the 90 degree turn I'm starting to make as I move to park over the top. if it is a little steep, or a little flat, you are usually still ok on this exit.

Edit- the first exit in this video is where this still was taken if that helps. Watch to the end, and there is an exit gone bad easter egg. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zT6gw2dAHyc&list=UUHNuDXLq-8UWPWNA1myLFJA&index=1

The trailing exit pic (00040(1) is 1 second into the jump, and shows the trailing exit, exit frame. Camera dude is above, and looking down on the team. If the exit comes off really steep, you will lose most of the grips. Even if it comes off right can be hard to see Tails grips.

Also attached is a pic that Niklas Daniel took of my team from last year. Not sure if this is what you were asking for in your first post, but that's my body position about 1 second into exit.

[Zlew 0]

My teammate (who also flies camera) made an interesting point last year. Our teams bring in these world class coaches to jump with them, fly in the tunnel with them, engineer every skydive, pick apart every second of the jump in the video de-brief... but as camera guys our main resource is each other. "hey man, what the fuck am I doing wrong" and "how the hell are you doing that" is our equivalent of paid coaching. :) gotta help each other out and spread the info! I'm not very good, but happy to share what I've learned.

[degeneration 5]

That "8x10eloy" pic is the sort of thing I was after. Things like that body position/angle with respect to the team, is something I would never have thought to try.

I realise every exit will be different depending on the formation being launched, and I'll hopefully build up my experience and repertoire over time, but just now, those pics and general info are things I can try putting into practice.

All my exits so far have been leading, but I do think I've been leaving a fraction of a second earlier than I need to, based on some of the footage I'm watching. I'm just a bit over cautious about crashing into who I'm filming! I haven't yet, but give it time and I'm sure I'll manage it!

Sky Switches - Affordable stills camera tongue switches and conversion adaptors, supporting various brands of camera (Canon, Sony, Nikon, Panasonic).

[Zlew 0]

you will learn to fly around your head, and hope your body just follows.

When exits funnel, they usually drift forward and away from you (much like tandems can if they are slow on the drogue). If they put it on the hill nice and clean, you should be right there with them.

Leading exits- The risk here is that you are depending on a count. If you jump with the same team all the time it may not be a big deal, but a lot of teams now give the count from inside the plane (inside center) and some don't give any indication of when thery are going until they are gone. I left early once when outside center gave what I thought was a knee swing for "set"...but it was jsut him getting his balance and put his leg back on the plane...I was gone. The other risk is if you leave too early you end up really having to fly up the hill and can get the "side view" if you are too early or they come off the hill too fast. All grips are usually lost here. I'll see if I can find some examples of what I mean.

[gearless_chris 1]

Here's some exit shots of me, and a couple of mine. I pretty much drop off straight down from the plane, give them a couple seconds of the exit, roll onto my side for a vertical exit shot, then get into position for the rest of the dive. Exit timing depends on how fast the group gives the count, but it's usually on the T of set. If I'm jumping with someone that does a faster count I'll leave earlier on set, or maybe even into ready, for slower counts you go later. I really like the, "Shake Shake Shake, ready set go" count. You can usually see the hand of the inside center doing the shaking, and that almost never blends in with getting into position. I've been lucky that both of the teams I've shot for regularly are so consistent that after I see the "Shake Shake Shake" I could close my eyes and still leave on time.
Exit 4a is my shot shortly after whoever took Exit 4 took theirs.
Exit 5 is not a 4 way, but it's a good example of how horrible your body position can be, and still be where you need to be. I also found it interesting that Arnold and I have mirror image horrible body positions.
Mine are shot with my Canon 10-22 at 10mm.

"If it wasn't easy stupid people couldn't do it", Duane.

My momma said I could be anything I wanted when I grew up, so I became an a$$hole.

[jtiflyer 0]

Quote

That "8x10eloy" pic is the sort of thing I was after. Things like that body position/angle with respect to the team, is something I would never have thought to try.

I realise every exit will be different depending on the formation being launched, and I'll hopefully build up my experience and repertoire over time, but just now, those pics and general info are things I can try putting into practice.

All my exits so far have been leading, but I do think I've been leaving a fraction of a second earlier than I need to, based on some of the footage I'm watching. I'm just a bit over cautious about crashing into who I'm filming! I haven't yet, but give it time and I'm sure I'll manage it!

just an fyi. If the camera flyer's view from 8x10 eloy is the next pic, its a bust, unless the angle changes and you can see the center grips before they move on to the next point

[Zlew 0]

Quote

just an fyi. If the camera flyer's view from 8x10 eloy is the next pic, its a bust, unless the angle changes and you can see the center grips before they move on to the next point

The next pic was from a different jump and was a trailing exit. Really posted that pic to show one of the reasons I don't like trailing exits. If you are talking about the 4two.jpg, that is a diffent jump but same exit style and exit frame as the 8x10pic. If you click the youtube link above, the first thing in that video is the footage of that exit (launched a 4) and I think you will see it wasn't a bust.

[loudtom 5]

You make a great point. I was just going to get some info from our local tandem video guys. You are right though they are always ready to help for free, or a couple beers whichever comes first. I appreciate your help alot.
tom

tom #90 #54 #08 and now #5 with a Bronze :-)

[loudtom 5]

This is the exit angle I thought would be the one I am going for. Body straight on at the formation getting on top shortly after exit.
Thanks, this is the bomb stuff....
tom

tom #90 #54 #08 and now #5 with a Bronze :-)

[dragon2 0]

Some fs4 exits were filmed during the POPS 2012 World Meet since there was a wing-mounted camera for a TV item one load. We had a camera pool, so not our own teams. If I know a team well I usually lead, but trailing is safer during competition.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6cEjhhPoeq4

trailing exit by me filming a French team:
0:28 - 0:38

leading exit (harder to see because of camera angle) by other Dutch cameraflyer filming the USA team:
1:15-1:40

trailing exit by German camerawoman filming the Dutch team:
1:53 - 2:06

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[StreetScooby 5]

Nice job!

We are all engines of karma

[degeneration 5]

Thanks for that.

The leading exit there confirms to me that I am leaving too early. That person managed to leave literally a tiny fraction of a second before the formation, if not at the same time, whereas I've always so far been off the plane another couple of fractions of a second earlier!

What are the benefits of doing a trailing exit? It just seems to me like you stand a good chance of the formation being more or less side on at the early stages so more likely to bust a grip. Or is that less likely than messing up a leading exit completely and making more busts?

I've only ever done leading exits so far (I am very inexperienced so still not done many of those even)...

Sky Switches - Affordable stills camera tongue switches and conversion adaptors, supporting various brands of camera (Canon, Sony, Nikon, Panasonic).

[jtiflyer 0]

Some international teams (Russian Black Kats for sure French Womens I think) the camera guy leaves very early.

The key to nailing every exit is knowing whether the team launches the formation steep (meaning very vertical), or flat.

My last team would launch most things very steep, so it was very easy to lead. However things like N or Q would just launch flat, so those I would "trail". By trailing I mean I would leave when the last half or quarter of the formation was clearing the door.

[degeneration 5]

So knowing whether to lead, trail or other comes after getting experience with a team and knowing how they exit?

What do you do before that point though?

If you are filming a new team that you've not really jumped with before for training jumps is there a "better" exit to do when you don't know anything about how the exit will be - flat or steep? As I'm a newbie camera flyer, any team I film will fall into that category, so just want to know if there is a "better" exit to use? Like I said, all I've done so far is leading exits, and they seem to have gone ok. Best to just stick with what I'm comfortable until I get to know the people and how they go? Kind of answering my own question here I think!

Sky Switches - Affordable stills camera tongue switches and conversion adaptors, supporting various brands of camera (Canon, Sony, Nikon, Panasonic).

[dragon2 0]

Quote

As I'm a newbie camera flyer, any team I film will fall into that category,

You're better off filming a A or AA team than rookies. It is much harder to learn how to camera fly FS4 if the team themselves are unsure...

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[gearless_chris 1]

Quote

Quote

As I'm a newbie camera flyer, any team I film will fall into that category,

You're better off filming a A or AA team than rookies. It is much harder to learn how to camera fly FS4 if the team themselves are unsure...

Where's the "like" button? Rookies are the hardest to shoot, they are all over the sky.

"If it wasn't easy stupid people couldn't do it", Duane.

My momma said I could be anything I wanted when I grew up, so I became an a$$hole.

[billvon 2,394]

>You're better off filming a A or AA team than rookies.

Agreed. The challenge for a new camera person is finding a good team that is willing to have a rookie film them. New RW teams are all over the place, and while they can be fun to film they're not the best team to learn with. For one thing, it's nearly impossible to get the exit timing right because even _they_ don't know when the exit is coming - and every exit will be different. Their fallrates vary, they often don't track well at breakoff etc etc.

To take the other extreme, teams like Airspeed and Fury are incredibly easy to video. They telegraph their exits clearly, the timing is always the same and they are solid in both fallrate (mostly) and in the horizontal plane. But it's unlikely that they'll want you to video them for a weekend or two.