skydude2000 3 #1 May 15, 2011 Hey Gang, I just had a question about RW positioning that I can't quite wrap my head around. It's probably something I should know already considering the amount of RW I've done, but you never know if you don't ask, right? Whenever I'm doing a jump any bigger than a 4-way, I've always seen that the heavier guys are usually in the base, and I've been told a fast base is a good thing. My question is, why? Wouldn't the heavier guys have an easier time diving down to a formation than a lighter jumper/slower faller? Or does it have something to do with the speed and the vertical shape of the formation? Hopefully it's not just something we do at my DZ and we're doing it wrong, but I'd like to at least know the reason Thanks!PULL!! or DIE!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 26 #2 May 15, 2011 While, I guess, one should be able to get on a base regardless of it's speed (within reason), the fast base theory goes like this: - Even in 4 way, speed is important to get more efficient results from moves, so having a faster base will allow people to be more efficient overall (a ballistic fall rate is no more useful than a super slow one tho if everyone on the outside is bent in 1/2 to keep up) - As formations build, they, unfortunately, slow down (people docking get complacent and relax their arch); if you start with a faster fall rate, you still end up with a reasonable rate - It's easier to stop from your dive to end up in a faster fall rate: less risk to go low - Slowing down from a dive for a larger jumper will take more time than a for a skinny fucker: the skinny folks can dive harder longer. This being said, I'd rather have a good base than a fast base (well, I'd rather have a good fast base, which is why I often volunteer for base slots) Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,822 #3 May 16, 2011 Quote - As formations build, they, unfortunately, slow down (people docking get complacent and relax their arch); I believe this to be a widely held MYTH. I believe interference drag is the main reason formations slow down as they build. Not only is this consistent with the laws of physics, it is also born out when comparing fall rates of tightly packed formations with those of loose, open formations.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,822 #4 May 16, 2011 Quote Wouldn't the heavier guys have an easier time diving down to a formation than a lighter jumper/slower faller? ! It's not how fast you can dive, it's how reliably you can slow down to dock when you get there, rather than hurtling on by.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sebinoslo 0 #5 May 16, 2011 QuoteQuote - As formations build, they, unfortunately, slow down (people docking get complacent and relax their arch); I believe this to be a widely held MYTH. I believe interference drag is the main reason formations slow down as they build. Not only is this consistent with the laws of physics, it is also born out when comparing fall rates of tightly packed formations with those of loose, open formations. I couldnt agree more. if a base was slowing down simply because people were complacent and relaxed too much you wouldnt see people with 1000s of jumps having to wear 15+kg of lead when being base for (very) large formation. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 26 #6 May 18, 2011 QuoteQuote - As formations build, they, unfortunately, slow down (people docking get complacent and relax their arch); I believe this to be a widely held MYTH. I believe interference drag is the main reason formations slow down as they build. Not only is this consistent with the laws of physics, it is also born out when comparing fall rates of tightly packed formations with those of loose, open formations. I'm actually sure its a combination of both. Especially in smaller big ways with not so dedicated big way jumpers, there is a lot of relaxing ager docking: otherwise, the inside base wouldn't feel lifted from the outside as is iden the case.Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pinkfairy 0 #7 May 18, 2011 Fact: The formation slows down as it gets bigger. Not just because people relax when they dock, more because people don't dock perfectly. Waves slow down formations. If it kept falling as fast when it got bigger I wouldn't have to wear 22 pounds in the base and almost nothing at the outside. Slow and floaty bases are really hard to dock on, you don't just have to slow down your vertical dive a lot, but they tend to float around as well. Getting down there is a piece of cake even for us light jumpers: That's done with body position, just like the freeflyers keep up with each other. We become REALLY fast when we get a little bit more vertical. I can easily fly to a formation that I couldn't keep up with once I was docked. I wear weights to fly my slot once docked, not to get there, I could easily get there naked! Actually, speed isn't the key to base success, keeping up a good fallrate, maintaining heading and absorbing hard docks are just as important. I'd rather have some experienced, skinny guys in the base than big beginners. I hope this helps! Relax, you can die if you mess up, but it will probably not be by bullet. I'm a BIG, TOUGH BIGWAY FORMATION SKYDIVER! What are you? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,822 #8 May 18, 2011 Quote Fact: The formation slows down as it gets bigger. Not just because people relax when they dock, more because people don't dock perfectly. Waves slow down formations. If it kept falling as fast when it got bigger I wouldn't have to wear 22 pounds in the base and almost nothing at the outside. Slow and floaty bases are really hard to dock on, you don't just have to slow down your vertical dive a lot, but they tend to float around as well. Getting down there is a piece of cake even for us light jumpers: That's done with body position, just like the freeflyers keep up with each other. We become REALLY fast when we get a little bit more vertical. I can easily fly to a formation that I couldn't keep up with once I was docked. I wear weights to fly my slot once docked, not to get there, I could easily get there naked! Actually, speed isn't the key to base success, keeping up a good fallrate, maintaining heading and absorbing hard docks are just as important. I'd rather have some experienced, skinny guys in the base than big beginners. I hope this helps! I've been on 100+ ways with basically the exact same cast of characters, just a few weeks apart. One was a tightly packed formation that was falling at 103mph when I docked on the outside. The other was very loose with large holes in it, and was going around 128mph when I docked on the outside. I do not for one moment think the skill and talent of the jumpers, the way they docked, or the way they "relaxed" (or didn't) after docking changed from one jump to the other. The only significant difference was the design of the formation. The phenomenon of interference drag is very real despite being almost unknown among skydivers.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,721 #9 May 20, 2011 >I believe this to be a widely held MYTH. Not at all. The larger the formation, in general the slower it goes. Several reasons for this: 1) As you add people you don't just get one person worth of drag - you get one person worth of drag plus the additional drag from the interference created between two people. With dense formations (jewels, diamonds etc) this is a big effect. Modern bigways, made primarily of wackers and big loops, have less of this effect. 2) The base generally tries to set a fast fallrate which means a very aggressive arch. As the dive goes on people tend to relax a bit (or they get tired; same effect.) 3) As the formation descends it slows down because the air gets denser. This is not an issue for people trying to dock on it, though, because they slow down as well. This is borne out in practice. On the 300-way the base was screaming fast (120+mph) the base anchors were at a reasonable speed and the last wackers had to fly at around 105mph to dock. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydude2000 3 #10 May 20, 2011 Please to be explaining what a 'wacker' is, in the skydiving sense???? PULL!! or DIE!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peek 20 #11 May 21, 2011 Quote Kallend: I believe this to be a widely held MYTH. BilVon: Not at all. The larger the formation, in general the slower it goes. Bill and John, I think you are both on the same page, more or less, but it sounds like a "disagreement" when people read it. You might want to PM each other and come up with a statement or two that expresses the thoughts of both of you. This bigway/fall rate thing is an important concept, but easy for less experienced people to misunderstand. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,721 #12 May 21, 2011 >Please to be explaining what a 'wacker' is, in the skydiving sense? Picture a four way donut as a base. Now another four people dock on the base's free arms. Now another four people dock on the new people's free arms. This continues and long lines grow out of the base, all still mostly facing the base. This is a wacker, and is a useful structure for bigways because a) your legs are free to fly b) you're facing the base and c) there's lots of empty space around you so you don't slow down too much. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airgord 1 #13 May 21, 2011 Quote Please to be explaining what a 'wacker' is, in the skydiving sense???? Like a weedwhackers lines. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,822 #14 May 22, 2011 Quote>I believe this to be a widely held MYTH. Not at all. The larger the formation, in general the slower it goes. Several reasons for this: 1) As you add people you don't just get one person worth of drag - you get one person worth of drag plus the additional drag from the interference created between two people. With dense formations (jewels, diamonds etc) this is a big effect. Modern bigways, made primarily of wackers and big loops, have less of this effect. 2) The base generally tries to set a fast fallrate which means a very aggressive arch. As the dive goes on people tend to relax a bit (or they get tired; same effect.) 3) As the formation descends it slows down because the air gets denser. This is not an issue for people trying to dock on it, though, because they slow down as well. This is borne out in practice. On the 300-way the base was screaming fast (120+mph) the base anchors were at a reasonable speed and the last wackers had to fly at around 105mph to dock. I think you mis-read what I wrote, (and snipped it too) and consequently wasted a lot of time replying to something I didn't claim. I did, in fact, explicitly refer to interference drag slowing formations' fall rates.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites