Greetings World Team Members,

[billvon 2,395]

To answer you from another thread:

>I didn't apply to TSR this year and I hate it. It's a great event. These
>guys/gals put on a super event. But the P3 requirement turned me off.

There's no requirement for any potential TSR participant to do a P3 event. That's just one of several ways to get on.

[mirage62 0]

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There's no requirement for any potential TSR participant to do a P3 event. That's just one of several ways to get on.

Well THATS why I put this in my post

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Yes I could have asked for a pass on the requirment .....

There absoluty WAS a requirement - that requirment could be WAVED. I may or may not have been granted that wavier, Short of asking for the wavier of the requirement it was stated.

So to suggest that there wasn't a requirment IMO is false Bill.

I'm all for this event, it is a great event, the people are great. I hope that it goes wonderful. I can't be any more supportive.

In the last several days it has been brought to my attention that there are three groups in big ways.

1. West coast jumpers who would never travel to the east coast for a camp (They didn't have to they had P3)

2. East coast jumper who GIVEN a choice wouldn't travel to the west coast for a camp (They may not have to in the future)

3. Jumpers who will just go where they want to go and really don't care about the politics of the whole thing

I fall in #2. If I can't get on a 100 way (or 500 way) because I didn't go out to a camp on the West coast than so be it. I really enjoy big ways, I LIKE the people.

Closing if the organizers want to have a rule that someone hop up and down on one leg while they apply THATS up to them - I support it. I may elect to not hop up and down like I use to is all and more people seem to be having the same feelings.

Love and kisses

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

[NWFlyer 2]

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There absoluty WAS a requirement - that requirment could be WAVED. I may or may not have been granted that wavier, Short of asking for the wavier of the requirement it was stated.

So as someone who's a complete outsider to the bigway world, I'm really curious about this. What's a better way to include people who have a wealth of bigway experience to bring to the table but haven't attended a camp (or haven't attended one in a long time)? In what little I have seen (bigger boogie jumps) it's important to be able to validate someone's credentials and currency before you put them on a bigway.

This thread has outlined two ends of the spectrum ... the "old boy network" (I know you and can vouch for you, or someone I know knows you and can vouch for you), or the "camp network" (you've demonstrated your skills to me recently in a camp). Should everyone have to submit an application for a record, whether you're coming up through the camp route or not? Is it the idea of having to document/prove your skills/experience/currency that is problematic or is it the fact that it's called a waiver and only required of those who aren't taking the camp route?

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[billvon 2,395]

>There absoluty WAS a requirement . . .

Hmm. Where did you see that? From Tom J:

===========
Minimum Qualifications Required: It is the organizers intention to invite to the 2011 TSR Team only Jumpers with proven and current Big Way and Competition Experience. For a jumper to be considered for a TSR Team slot they must:

a. Have demonstrated competency in at least one P3 event in 2010, OR
b. Have been in at least one 100-way event in 2010, AND
c. Have a proven ability to track safely away from a formation, AND
d. Have proven to be a reliable team player.
e. OR be an active Advanced or Open competitor in the 2010 or 2011 seasons.
==========

So you can either:

Do a P3 event competently

Do a team at Nationals

Do at least one 100-way in 2010 and demonstrate you can track and show up to events.

They sound like pretty reasonable requirements.

[tetra316 0]

It was a requirement to attend a P3 event in 2010. According to the information on bigways.com it still is. And it was also listed as such in the several emails I received about TSR:

a. Have demonstrated competency in at least one P3 event in 2010, AND
b. Have been on at least one 100-way event in 2010, AND
c. Have a proven ability to track safely away from a formation, AND
d. Have proven to be a reliable team player.
e. And/or be an active Advanced or Open competitor in the 2010 or 2011 seasons.
The organizing team can waive requirements 'a' and 'b' in certain circumstances.


However, that said another email came out today from Tom J. that apparantely changed the word AND in line a to the word OR. My guess is they receieved a lot of negative feedback about this 'requirement'. Or the word AND in line a was just a mistake to begin with. Who knows?

[mirage62 0]

Thanks for your post, Bill got the same e-mails I'm sure and he reads well.

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

[mirage62 0]

That’s a good question and one that doesn’t have any easy answer. Is it unfair to validate someone’s credentials? No. Would you validate someone’s credentials that you jump with often? Of course the question becomes how often is often enough? I might say 3 times a year, you might say 6.

“Is it the idea of having to document/prove your skills/experience/currency that is problematic” Perhaps the problem is how often do you need to “document/prove/experience/currency.” How often do you need to go back to a camp? I haven’t done a camp in 5 years. You “prove” your skills when you do the jump.

“the fact that it's called a waiver and only required of those who aren't taking the camp route?” Most of the people that are doing the big ways HAVE done the camp thing. I did three in Ca. They can require it and they can wave it.

FWIW many big way jumpers are chatting about all this. Most are scared to post any feelings because of a fear of not getting on the next event they want to. (Believe it or not I want to keep doing some big ways)

Let me close like I started these are good questions. Organizers have every right to do whatever they want to do. If they want you to go to camp no matter what you have done in the past, that there right. If they want you to apply for a wavier IF you don’t go to the camp that’s there right.

I certainly hope that TSR, P3 camps, P3 100 ways…..all go well and are successful, I wish them all the best luck in the world.

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

[BillyVance 34]

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>Prior to that Roger Nelson did the 200-way

Guy Manos organized the World Record 200 in 1992 at Myrtle Beach South Carolina.

All we paid for was Room and Food, the jumps were FREE.

That was definitely a cool gig. I had thought Buzz Ansley was the organizer, but I was wrong, he just made the Dive Rite suits. I had 3 of them. I started jumping in '93.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[BillyVance 34]

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There absolutely WAS a requirement - that requirement could be WAVED. I may or may not have been granted that wavier, Short of asking for the wavier of the requirement it was stated.

So as someone who's a complete outsider to the bigway world, I'm really curious about this. What's a better way to include people who have a wealth of bigway experience to bring to the table but haven't attended a camp (or haven't attended one in a long time)? In what little I have seen (bigger boogie jumps) it's important to be able to validate someone's credentials and currency before you put them on a bigway.

This thread has outlined two ends of the spectrum ... the "old boy network" (I know you and can vouch for you, or someone I know knows you and can vouch for you), or the "camp network" (you've demonstrated your skills to me recently in a camp). Should everyone have to submit an application for a record, whether you're coming up through the camp route or not? Is it the idea of having to document/prove your skills/experience/currency that is problematic or is it the fact that it's called a waiver and only required of those who aren't taking the camp route?

I would be curious to see how P3's hand-picked and trained jumpers do on the next world record attempt. Specifically how many are cut because they fucked up.

On big ways in my experience anyway, there are usually a certain number that get cut despite the "good ole boy" network. On some of the 100 ways I did up and down the east coast in the 90's, I saw a few jumpers that did not need to be on the dives, they were that bad. Made me wonder how the fuck they got on the dives to begin with.

I can proudly say that even though my big way days are long gone, I was never axed.

Maybe, just maybe P3 is doing a good thing, but I guess it's up to the individual jumper if the extra cost is worth it to them, that's all.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[mirage62 0]

Hey Billy this may or may not fit in here.....but why did YOU stop doing them? (Big ways)

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

[BillyVance 34]

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Hey Billy this may or may not fit in here.....but why did YOU stop doing them? (Big ways)

Simple.

Got married. Bought a house (both in 2000). Predictably, my jumping trailed off to the point where I couldn't keep my skills super-sharp any more. Plus, the added danger element to having so many people in the air, and being a dad to two young girls, and the fact that Sandy Wambach's daughter had to grow up without her mom, well, to each their own. It was just my personal choice.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[mirage62 0]

Good points all

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

[Merkur 1]

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.... You “prove” your skills when you do the jump. ....

I disagree on this one, if it's meant in a way that you are "evaluated" based on your performance during the first jump on a record-event.
IMO this will lead to more people signing up, who think they can do it and after jump 1 you have to "axe" up to 20% of the jumpers.

So for events aiming for records, I think some kind of evaluation of the currency of your flying skills should be done prior to the start.
Does this need to be a camp? - not necessarily, it can be - as you said - whatever the organizer thinks is appropriate.

vSCR No.94
Don't dream your life - live your dream!

[popsjumper 2]

You may have misunderstood.
He meant that after you have accomplished a record jump then you should be grandfathered in on the next one. Hence, you proved yourself ON the first record jump.

...at least that's how I understood it.

I find that hard to argue with....unless you were one of the ones missing and missing and missing until you finally hit your slot on jump 10.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[mirage62 0]

Thanks Andy and yes was the idea. At some point provided that jumper stays current and is jumping they shouldn't have more to prove.

Look none of this is easy. Putting together a really high end 100 way is hard I'm sure. Lot's of people can do a basic 100 way...but making it a hard 100....well thats different.

In the end whatever happens in the big way world people will come and go. There will always be a group climbing....and group on top....and one on there way down. I guess it all depends on the organizers to decide where the applicate is. It is up to the applicate to decide if they are willing to do whatever the organizer says they have to do to prove it.

That will never change. Maybe just being a little more happy and cheerful while they are doing it would go a long way by both parties

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

[kallend 1,623]

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You may have misunderstood.
He meant that after you have accomplished a record jump then you should be grandfathered in on the next one. Hence, you proved yourself ON the first record jump.

...at least that's how I understood it.

I find that hard to argue with....unless you were one of the ones missing and missing and missing until you finally hit your slot on jump 10.

That certainly didn't apply to the last TSR. Being there on every attempt including the 2 150-way completions in 2007 meant nothing in 2009.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[billvon 2,395]

Just to clear things up -

I posted my reply after seeing the most recent email from Tom J; I did not compare it to earlier emails to see what changed (and apparently some wording did change, which I missed.) I did not mean to imply that Fortson was being disingenuous about the requirement, and I apologize if it came off that way.

[skyjohn 0]

Dude there are leaders and then there are organizers. Do you have any idea what effort it takes to organize and manage a record event?
P3 has always and continues to perform it's mission for excellent prep for a record. This issue is simply about an active mutiny of the team based on simple greed. My world team experience was superb and it was obvious there were certain personalities (sky god) that weren't present. If they can accomplish the same effort after people have spent so much, I'll personally be amazed. Remember the disputes after the AZ record?
I'm not against P3 getting paid their jumps and airfare, more power to them.
I'm just saying people that spend 50+ per camp jump in a no fault system watching others get prepared may end up having a sense of entitlement come record time. Not a great team effort, kind of reminds me of the NFL..

John R Walrond

[tetra316 0]

Update here:

http://www.p3skydiving.com/

[mirage62 0]

Winter of 2013.......not to close not to far. I wonder if World team will try and find a place and go for it in the same time frame. No way both could go or even close at the same time.

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

[mdrejhon 8]

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DUBAI 500 -- FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE!
P3 is honored to announce that, thanks to the support of His Highness Sheikh Hamdan bin Mohammed Al Maktoum, Crown Prince of Dubai, the new World Record in Formation Skydiving will take place in Dubai, UAE winter 2013.

DUBAI 500 will incorporate a multi-year plan that includes a 253-way event in winter of 2012 and the 500-way FAI World Record. More details on this historical event, including application information, will be released in the coming months.

Based on the phrase "multi-year plan", my guess is they appear to be planning at least 3 or 4 events in Dubai, to build a rapport and experience. Along with the Square1 200-way invitational, they appear to have plenty of time to gain the necessary experience to conduct mega-sized big way events. Although it is not a 100-way, they did organize successful 181-way women's world record (JFTC) and the 121-way men's world record.

I dislike politics, and what I am hearing seems unfortunate, but it does not deter me: I will and will always continue to play for any team I am invited on and can reasonably get to. (Mind you -- including BJ Worth events -- and if BJ Worth has a World Team, I'll try to go to that one too, if it is not in the same year.). If in the same year, budgetary issues will force me to choose one or the other, or whichever one I get invited to (if any)...

[mirage62 0]

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Along with the Square1 200-way invitational, they appear to have plenty of time to gain the necessary experience to conduct mega-sized big way events. Although it is not a 100-way, they did organize successful 181-way women's world record (JFTC) and the 121-way men's world record.

The people that are P3 have PLENTY of experience to do an event today. The place to have it has been the issue for the most part.

I don't believe there is enough people to even attempt two events in one year. ($$ and time off)

You have been clear about your goal, I'm sure you'll get your chance. If anything the chances got bigger for a lot of people.

Good luck!

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little