Hooknswoop 19 #76 February 21, 2003 QuoteCompare this to beginers jumping the miserable PD(non ZP ) or say the saber , or sabre 2's...... I mean at a light loading it will be all good.... Shit 8 years ago people said a beginner under a sabre was a problem..... I dont know.... I see the cobalt at a light loading to be a great "Beginner" canopy..... We cant stop the progress... Look at BOC for students.... I just think at the right loading an elliptical or "semi" elliptical is fine for a beginner... It's all about what you learn with.... I have taught students, after 3 learning tandems, with Sabre mains. I have seen former students not listen to advice and get an elliptical too soon and pay the price for it. Remember, the largest Cobalt is a 170, so it can't be a medium to large person to have a light loading under a Cobalt. I am medium build and my exit weight is 187. That puts me over 1:1 on a 170. I base my opinion of low experience jumpers and elliptical canopies on years of Instructing. New jumpers don't understand things like: body position and holding a heading at pull time is very important, leaving enough excess line between the bottom of the reserve tray and the first stow, their tracking abilities are tuned to the point where they get a lot of seperation (which is critical for HP canopies), they aren't knowledgeable about gear maintenance. Newer jumpers make mistakes from lack of experience, low turns landing off, etc. I think it is better to make those mistakes under a more forgiving canopy. 8 years ago there was no such thing as a learning tandem, they were rides, that's it. I agree with ZP student canopies, at light loadings, after good tandem training. It has to be done correctly or the student is at risk. I don't see the value in fully elliptical student canopies. Hook Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
johnny1488 1 #77 February 21, 2003 There were safety issuse that arised from my girlfriend jumping the cobalt at a light wingloading. Atair's response is you need to load it more. No student should be in a rush to highly load a canopy. If they want to recommend a cobalt at 1.2 for a jumper with 100 or 200 Thats fine. To say its fine for someone with zero ( or close to it) experience is not smart. There is nothing unsafe about having a student under a lightly loaded canopy until they learn with a good margain of safety. Canopy progression is about much more than learning at the fastest rate possible. In skydiving if you think you can learn faster by pushing the limits your probably gonna get hurt. Square chutes and BOC for students is NOTHING like highly loaded ellipticals Johnny --"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!" Mike Rome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rgoper 0 #78 February 21, 2003 QuoteI have seen former students not listen to advice and get an elliptical too soon and pay the price for it. Hook: this goes back to providing correct information, good post. we both know of a sky diver that wouldn't listen and payed the price with his life under a regular Sabre. so anything above that performance level is definitely lethal. my outlook on training jumps with tandem progression is the same as yours, hopefully it'll catch on, hopefully sooner than later. take care bro....--Richard-- "We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
f1freak 0 #79 February 21, 2003 Ok, speaking for myself... 225 exit weight I was on a sub 200 Turbo ZX as a "Student" (17th jump)... In my training canopy controll was a HUGE thing.... I mean they didint let you off radio untill they were VERy confident you would do the right thing... and when we downsized.... Back on radio.... I am saying a elliptical or semi-elltiptical for a jumper that has been trained right will be fine under a responsibly loaded canopy.... Wow... Now i am thinking about how GREAT the SOS is for students..... I mean Teach what you will use. you will be a lot less prone to mistakes.....HAVE FUN... ...JUST DONT DIE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
johnny1488 1 #80 February 21, 2003 Maybe the new Atair planform shapes will be good for students and beginners at a light loading. Im pretty sure thats why they made them. What I dont get is why Dan said and continues to say the the cobalt at a light loading is fine when Atair told me that you should not load it as light to be safe for someone with limited experience. Johnny --"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!" Mike Rome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
f1freak 0 #81 February 21, 2003 Have you talked to anyone else form the company??? I mean.... well people are people.... and well... I sure as hell wouldnt buy a car on the word of 1 person that worked for the company....HAVE FUN... ...JUST DONT DIE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
johnny1488 1 #82 February 21, 2003 My girlfriend spoke with a girl from Atair and she expressed her conserns and then Dan called her back. She would not buy from them because at the wingloading she was comfortable with the canopy was not safe. I would not shun everyone from their products. I would just let them know what happened to us. Johnny --"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!" Mike Rome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
f1freak 0 #83 February 21, 2003 QuoteSquare chutes and BOC for students is NOTHING like highly loaded ellipticals Of course it's not..... I would never wanna see a student put out on a HIGHLY loaded canopy.... Thats just not cool.... What i'm saying is that elliptical and semi-elliptical canopys are going to be the norm.... Just like squares, ZP..... So let's teach new jumpers to fly what they will be flying.... I sure as shit would have been better off if i had learned under a more modern canopy then then a Manta.... I had to learn all over again when my dz bought new canopies.....HAVE FUN... ...JUST DONT DIE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
f1freak 0 #84 February 21, 2003 ok... I was thinking the Main office in europe... but yeah man, i see your point... HAVE FUN... ...JUST DONT DIE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
johnny1488 1 #85 February 21, 2003 You had to learn all over again. Is that to say the experience you had under the manta was harmful. Thats like saying you did 100 rw jumps before you started freeflying and had to start all over again. There is no reason to rush. Johnny --"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!" Mike Rome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
f1freak 0 #86 February 21, 2003 I am saying EXACTLY that..... Yeah the manta got me to the ground.... But it had NOTHING to teach me.... I saw people learn under the "Newer" canopies have much better success transitioning to sport gear... It was nothing like the modern canopies flown now It's like saying riding a tricycle benefits you when learning to ride a motor cycle ( i guess you could make that argument, but i belieave that a bicycle will do a better job.....)HAVE FUN... ...JUST DONT DIE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
johnny1488 1 #87 February 21, 2003 So you didnt learn to fly a patern or how do toggle turns or brake turns or what a flare was? Ever do anything stupid under a square slow canopy that maybe a slightly more aggressive planform shape wouldn't have let you get away with? There is no such thing as bad time in the air under a canopy. Even if its for the first couple jumps until its decided BY YOUR INSTRUCTORS that you could benefiet from a more efficient canopy. If a student is not at the point of refraining from doing something unexpectedly stupid there is no need to put them on a canopy that might dive a little more or turn faster. Put a student on a big safire or sabre2 but not on a cobalt or a xfirre or stilleto Johnny --"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!" Mike Rome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
f1freak 0 #88 February 21, 2003 No... ok... Wait i did learn one thing...... What it was like to be under canopy at 3000'.... But i HONESTLY can say that it was nothing like flying the newer student canopies.... (well yeah, two toggles) Ok i must state that i am ONLY talking about the canopy aspect of training... I mean i could go into openings and things... But as a student you dont really know what to expect.... you have seen pictures of things and listened to instructors...HAVE FUN... ...JUST DONT DIE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
johnny1488 1 #89 February 21, 2003 Yeah it was boring and slow and you wanted more. But you got some time under your belt. When we are students its hard to understand what you havent learned yet. Edited to add..I was trained on a pd navigator 280 (later a 220) I've never flown a manta but the navigator had all I needed for the first 20 or so jumps. I know we want to start to learn all we can about our new found addiction. If we start on the slow crappy stuff (by crappy I mean performance wise) we will appreciate the more modern canopies. I mean if its a little tough to stand up every landing, whats wrong with practicing PLF's? Johnny --"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!" Mike Rome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
f1freak 0 #90 February 21, 2003 And..... I may be jumping on a ledge.... But i think a lot of the "lightly loaded elliptical" debate is based more on curent jumper pride.... I have had older jumpers admit that to me when i was buying a sabre the first time.....HAVE FUN... ...JUST DONT DIE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
f1freak 0 #91 February 21, 2003 No i really mean it.... I had but 3 jumps when we went to new canopies.... I mean... It was a hit or miss thing with the manta.... I hit the new stuff... and it "predictable..... I mean, DONT USE OUTDATED shit just because it will be easier to teach......HAVE FUN... ...JUST DONT DIE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
johnny1488 1 #92 February 21, 2003 Well most of the planforms on student canopies are "outdated" by current performance standards. That doesnt make them bad for someone who's never been under a canopy. Johnny --"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!" Mike Rome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #93 February 21, 2003 Where do you draw the line? ZP squares? Lightly tapered Semi-Ellipticals? Fully Ellipticals? Crossbraced Tri-cells? At what wing loading? After all, that is what they will be jumping, right? At some point the first jump student is no longer going to be able to handle the canopy. I draw the line at lightly tapered semi-elliptical (Sabre2/Safire2) at 1:1 or less AFTER 3 learning/working tandems. Or .8:1 or less for AFF 1st jump students. I base this on my experience teaching using F-111 mains for AFF and ZP squares for AFP (3 tandems first). Students don't need the turn perfomance that fully ellipticals give, or the higher rocovery arc. The Stiletto, Cobalt, Crossfire, Heatwave, etc are not choices for student canopies. How many students have you talked down on the radio? Hook Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
f1freak 0 #94 February 21, 2003 Well, i am thinking i have talked down @200.... I am not saying that they need to be under hotrods..... my god.... I am saying let's keep the students under the nrewest technology, the canopies that are going to be closest to what they will buy as their own...... i'm not saying put a student out on a 1 to 1 canopy, hell i dont care if it square or elliptical.... I am saying that lets not let students get under (realitivly speaking) round canopys and when they are off student status say HAHAHAHAHAAAAAA.... FUCK YOU go learn again..... It is coming fast, and we are going to be at the same place we were at when rounds became "Un cool"HAVE FUN... ...JUST DONT DIE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #95 February 21, 2003 QuoteWell, i am thinking i have talked down @200.... Why aren't you an instructor? How many of those were under fully elliptical canopies? QuoteI am not saying that they need to be under hotrods..... my god.... You are if you are saying the Cobalt 170 makes a good sstudent canopy. 1st jupm students aren't getting any better at canopy control, we have updated training and equipment, but there is a limit. I think we have reached that limit with lightly loaded, lightly tapered semi-ellipticals after 3 working tandems. QuoteI am saying let's keep the students under the nrewest technology, the canopies that are going to be closest to what they will buy as their own...... I agree with the concept, the closer we can make student gear to the gear they will be jumping after student status, the better, but again, I think we have reached the maximum, without going fully elliptical. if a fully elliptical canopy came out that demonstrated forgiving enough traits, then OK, but I haven't seen/jumped one. Quotei'm not saying put a student out on a 1 to 1 canopy, hell i dont care if it square or elliptical.... I am saying that lets not let students get under (realitivly speaking) round canopys and when they are off student status say HAHAHAHAHAAAAAA.... FUCK YOU go learn again..... It is coming fast, and we are going to be at the same place we were at when rounds became "Un cool" I think we agree, except for the fully elliptical part. There has to be a point when a canopy is simply not forgiving enough to be a student canopy. Students make mistakes, that is a given, the canopy needs to be forgiving enough that these mistakes don't injure or kill them. Hook Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
johnny1488 1 #96 February 21, 2003 Quote I am saying let's keep the students under the nrewest technology" Thats not necessarily a bad thing. Icarus makes a student canopy that hardly gains any speed in a full on toggle turn. Thats technology that will benefit a first jump student. Have an instructor put them on a safire2 after 5 or 6 jumps. There, a perfect compromise. Johnny --"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!" Mike Rome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rgoper 0 #97 February 21, 2003 QuoteI mean, DONT USE OUTDATED shit just because it will be easier to teach...... i know you just didn't! it's not that they're easier to teach, it's about caring about our new sky divers. i'm telling ya, i remember one sky diver who did the 3 tandem requirement, got half way through her AFP program, on a landing one day, (Sabre, loaded at 0.9:1:1) she broke her ankle. she was out of the sport for months. when she came back, she did 13 or so tandems until the jump master was satisfied she could flare, and land without injury. the majority of students do not go on to be avid sky divers for a multitude of reasons. i would challenge any student to fly my canopy safely, each and every time. progressive and comprehensive canopy flight (including sizes, and planforms) should be just like the theory of tandem/afp progression. ya gotta crawl before you can walk. and if it takes longer to progress, and downsize, or fly an elipitical canopy, well we all have more time than money i'm sure. safety first.--Richard-- "We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
f1freak 0 #98 February 21, 2003 Have i once said..... QuoteYou are if you are saying the Cobalt 170 makes a good sstudent canopy. 1st jupm students aren't getting any better at canopy control, we have updated training and equipment, but there is a limit. I think we have reached that limit with lightly loaded, lightly tapered semi-ellipticals after 3 working tandems. no i havent.... what i am saying is lets stay with the times..., Dont stack the deck in order to make the instructors job easier...' And yeah..... I stoped jumping before i became an instructor..... yeah.... I was a J/M (no excuses) and i dont want it to be an argument..... I really think that keeping the students up to date with equiptment is a good thing... What i am saying is that i think A LOT more attention NEEDS to be given to canopy work... Hell at least as much as RW or FF when you are working with a new jumper.... And that it needs to be blasted into their brains that the thing that will fuck them up or kill them will be the canopy ride..... way before losing altitude awareness..... (that was what was slammed into our brains)HAVE FUN... ...JUST DONT DIE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #99 February 21, 2003 Then I think we are in total agreement, that student gear should be as close as possible to what they will be jumping after student status, within reason, and students need quality canopy instruction, and Cobalts don't make good student canopies. Agree? Hook Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jerm 0 #100 February 21, 2003 Quote Thats not necessarily a bad thing. Icarus makes a student canopy that hardly gains any speed in a full on toggle turn. Thats technology that will benefit a first jump student. Have an instructor put them on a safire2 after 5 or 6 jumps. There, a perfect compromise. ah... so we should teach them early on that they can do a full-on toggle turn low and get away with it? This goes back to my SOS argument..... if you teach them the right thing the first time, then they're more likely to do the right thing when the fit hits the shan. So on jump 10 2 students on sabre2-190s at 1.1:1 get cut off at 100 ft.... who is in a better situation, the student who has been jumping that canopy since jump-1 and everything they know about sport-canopy flight has taught them that a ltitle bit of toggle will turn them enough to avoid an impact, or the student who just moved down from a manta280 who for their first 5 jumps had to bury a toggle just to get the thing to move? In times of crisis we tend to go back to what we learned first. If you tach them RIGHT in the first place.. and really TEACH them, don't just glaze over canopy control... they'll get it.... we've been doing it for years where i learned, with excellent results. Landing without injury is not necessarily evidence that you didn't fuck up... it just means you got away with it this time Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
