Ron 7 #51 February 20, 2003 So the Cobalt is perfect for beginers...If they have a problem its the fact they don't load it enough..(OK that makes zero sense.) It is the best swooping canopy...able to compare to the X-braced designs. AH....I have jumped the Cobalt 105...and it did not out swoop the Velocity 111. It opens the best. (except the one I jumped that slammed the shit out of me, Oh, but thats because I jumped the pilot chute that I jumped with my 107 Stiletto...that worked great with that canopy...but was to big for the Cobalt?) It seems that your Ad's...Er, I mean posts say that it is the best canopy in the history of the world. And that you can jump it from AFF level 1 to 10,000 jumps. Ah, I call Bull Shit here. Ron"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rgoper 0 #52 February 20, 2003 Quoteimo, the attacks on Atair / Dan P are pretty obvious. no one has attacked anyone here Quotewe are lucky Dan has decided to answer anything in the format and context these forums provide to us dan has made suggestions in these forums, no one made him say anything. i don't know about the "lucky" part. Quotemuch less be baited. it takes guts to put yourself out there for people, and i just hope Atair continues to provide the community with information, no matter how it is taken. is it information, or advertisement and solicitation? you don't see the reps from PD/Big Air Sports/Pisa/Aerodyne...etc...posting here about anything because they know it can lead to statements that you can be held accountable for. QuoteDan has decided to answer anything in the format and context these forums provide to us i can overview all of the posts on this original topic and see at least 8 questions Dan has refused to answer directly, i would like to know the answers to the questions myself.--Richard-- "We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #53 February 20, 2003 Quotei fly a cobalt 170, loaded at 1.3 and have had nice, neat openings. i have had two lousy openings due to messed up body position and getting the correct packing issues worked out (i asked around and found a packer who had some ideas on how to pack my rig). no line twists, no kicking out of anything, no hassles in the air. had an end cell closed once or twice- fixable with a practice landing deep flair. i like the canopy, it fits what i want (soft openings, high performance, more flair at the end of a landing) and it does what the Atair website and Dan P continue to explain: it works. i read every now and then on the boards here at DZ.com about cobalts not performing up to specs. i believe in the canopy that i fly, and trust it to do what it's supposed to do. when i deploy my cobalt 170, it does what it's supposed to do. to me, that's what the canopy is all about. i am still willing to learn, no matter what kind of canopy i fly, and that just might be the key here. i learned how to deploy and fly my 170. if my skills ever progress to the point where i decide i can handle the risks of a smaller main, i will 're'-learn that canopy too. cobalt, safire, stiletto, or what- still have to learn. And I have not said otherwise, in fact I have, twice, said that the Cobalt is a good canopy. I used to own a predecessor of the Cobalt, the Alpha and liked it. But exactly what I liked about it ( and I have jumoed themn at lighter wingloadings) makes it un-suitable for students or beginers. That is my opinion. I have 3,200 skydives, AFFI, TDMI, PRO, and SLI ratings, I am a senior rigger with back and chest ratings, and a pilot. I have been jumping for over 8 years, teaching for 7 of those years. I fly a small, high performance canopy, and have more jumps on canopies under 100 sq. ft. than Dan does total. I have never been injured. I teach a Canopy Control Course. A 221 lb exit weight under a Cobalt 170 with 64 jumps puts you in a high risk area. It can be done, but is very risky. A lot of jumpers in the same risk area have discovered that it was too risky, the hard way. Quoteelse, imo, the attacks on Atair / Dan P are pretty obvious. we are lucky Dan has decided to answer anything in the format and context these forums provide to us, much less be baited. it takes guts to put yourself out there for people, and i just hope Atair continues to provide the community with information, no matter how it is taken. Again, I haven't attacked him. If I don't directly spell out the questions, and point out that he is not answering them, he will wait until this thread hits page 2 and goes away, then he will be back to his old tricks. This is the only way, that I can see, to get him to actually answer the questions he is being asked about statements he has made. He will respond to a post container several questions and only answer the easy one, or not actually answer the questions. I agree that having a manufacturer post information here is a great thing, if the information is good. Quotelastly, i also see the transparency of the stated legal implications of advice, also mentioned several times in this thread. if the goal was to show ignorance of the legal community, imo it has met with success. if attacks against Dan are going to take this new direction, please read up on (your) local slander litigation before continueing; it will make for a better post. As Dan said- i can provide you with a list of law books which will help. got my vector? ;) Is this directed towards me? Hook Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #54 February 20, 2003 Nope, it was directed towards me, since I've stated that Dan's recommendations for students/beginners were very dangerous. I also stated that he's putting himself in a personaly liable position, legally, by the comments he's made for low time jumpers. Personally, I don't see how that would demonstrate a "lack of understanding" in regards to the legal community, infact, I think it proves a very good understanding of how things work in these regards.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cloud9 0 #55 February 20, 2003 Quote you don't see the reps from PD/Big Air Sports/Pisa/Aerodyne...etc...posting here No but you used to. I'm sure they got as tired of the personal attacks as I have. People are asking for information here that no canopy manufacturer puts out., and I don't know of one that doesn't advertise theirs as the latest greatest. Chaos21 best opening canopy on the market Crossfire2 best HP 9 cell on the market. Triathlon best all around Sabre 2 best all around These are all manufacturer claims they can't all be right can they? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #56 February 20, 2003 QuoteNo but you used to. I'm sure they got as tired of the personal attacks as I have Bill Booth from RWS still posts regularly, Brian Germain comes in every once in a while, Kolla from PD posts quite a bit, Heather from Wings posts quite a bit... There around, they just don't post their own little advertisements like some do, thus they don't post a whole lot. Generally speaking, they speak up when they're answering questions, to the fullest and best of their ability, instead of trying to market their stuff in their posts. There have been no personal attacks in this thread, if there would have been, BillVon as well as the other moderators would have been all over it. I know they've been monitoring this thread, too. Yes, all manufactures advertise their stuff as the greatest, but let me use Bill Booth as an example. In the past, very technical questions have come up about some of his stuff. Specifically Pilote Chutes, correctly made risers/3-rings and the Sky Hook. Mr. Booth took the time to accuratly answer the questions AND provided test data to support his conclusions. This wholy proved him to be a class act guy. He's gone out of his way in the past to help with rigging questions talking about a Vector 2, even when the best solution would have been a Vector 3 (for freeflying), but he still worked with people to help them solve their problems, instead of trying to get them to buy a Vector3.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cloud9 0 #57 February 20, 2003 Quote but let me use Bill Booth as an example. Quote Specifically Pilote Chutes, correctly made risers/3-rings and the Sky Hook. Thats the best example I could have used Dave. Now go back and look at how Bill got slammed about the skyhook, how it was started in base how it was the same thing how it didn't really do anything. No matter how many times he answered the acusations another would start. As far as personal attacks I have seen hundreds where the moderators let them go, I quit going to talkback over it. Some times they stop it sometimes not. I know if I posted something and someone out right called it bull shit! well I guess I'd take that very personal. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #58 February 20, 2003 QuoteBill Booth from RWS still posts regularly, Brian Germain comes in every once in a while, Kolla from PD posts quite a bit, Heather from Wings posts quite a bit... Brian Germain usually only comes around to refute wild and inacurate claims by Dan Preston... _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #59 February 20, 2003 However people took it, Bill Booth STILL accurately answered their questions with complete answers and technical data. He didn't try to shrug off the questions and dance around the answers. He is truely a class act guy! I've been on this site since May of 2000 and quite honestly every time I saw an actual personal attack, a Moderator and/or HH would step in a stop it. This thread isn't a case of personal attacks, its truely just a case of people wanting answers to wild claims and the person with the answers is refusing to answer with technical data and proof.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #60 February 20, 2003 QuoteNo but you used to. I'm sure they got as tired of the personal attacks as I have. If I said the Velocity makes a great student canopy, at 1.2:1, because it has lots of lift, would I get slammed? Would I deserve it? Would I be asked to justify that opinion? What if I dodged the question several times, but asserted the Velocity makes a good student canopy, then said if I said student, I meant to say beginner. What if I wouldn't answer about my qualifications, for example, am I an instructor? How much weight would my opinion that the Velocity makes a good student canopy carry? Would you are if someone said, no it doesn't make a good student canopy? QuotePeople are asking for information here that no canopy manufacturer puts out. Such as? Quoteand I don't know of one that doesn't advertise theirs as the latest greatest. In every post, irregardless if it is revelent to the thread or not? Mr. Boothe responded thoughtfully and completely to every question that was given him. QuoteChaos21 best opening canopy on the market Crossfire2 best HP 9 cell on the market. Triathlon best all around Sabre 2 best all around These are all manufacturer claims they can't all be right can they? I haven't seen those claims from the manufacturer's as they post here, especially not in almost every post they make. Do you believe Dan accidentally interchanged "beginner" with "student" four times? He would answer that "yes, the cobalt is a student canopy", but ignore the question of where Cobalts are used as student canopies. "Your student canopy, do you mean the Cobalt? yes i mean the cobalt and previously the space/alpha. we are also offering our 'indigo' canopy for this season in sizes 170, 190 & 210. it is slightly less tapered than a cobalt, and the openings are tuned for lighter wingloadings. Do you recommend putting students under Cobalts at a 1.2 wing loading? yes, anyone you would consider safe under a sabre, safire or hornet is equally safe on a cobalt. Has this been done? yes " He said "better is to simply view a chart of a canopy's perfromance vs wing loading" I asked if Atair had a "chart of a canopy's perfromance vs wing loading" He said " check out our web site faq page. " Atair does not have a "chart of a canopy's perfromance vs wing loading" on their web page. They have a recommended wing loading chart like everyone else, except Dan claims Atair's is realistic. I have to ask several times, because he doesn't answer the questions, he dodges them. Hook Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #61 February 20, 2003 QuoteAs far as personal attacks I have seen hundreds where the moderators let them go, I quit going to talkback over it. Some times they stop it sometimes not. Here's some interesting stats for you. These are as of right now - QuotePosts in the last hour 172 Posts in the last 6 hours 533 Posts in the last day 1313 Posts in the last week 7994 Posts in the last month 35539 There are six greenies and one Sangiro moderating all those posts. Yeah, we're gonna miss some stuff, especially if we aren't notified about developing situations. Remember, we all have jobs and lives, too... I've seen nothing in this thread that I would call a personal attack. Dan's been asked some questions about some claims he's made; he's not answering them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ouroboros 0 #62 February 20, 2003 a few good points. hard to see through all of the hate posts. let me attempt to clear a tunnel. no matter how you cut it, launching against a company / person is an attack. no one asked if it was rightious, correct, or warrented. does it belong in this forum? i would venture to say no. i came to this for 'gear and rigging' info. instead, i read through post after post of accusations. i would like to get back to a forum that expresses an interest in education within the skydiving community. imo, education that is free from the personal bias and attacks against a person or company. i am a graduate of the SDC AFP course and have been cleared to 190 class canopies. in selecting a main, i tried stilettos, safires and cobalts, and chose the cobalt based on its opening performance, size (170 vs the other 190's), and most importantly flair power on landing (i still land it like a safire sometimes; in deep toggles). enough said about the experience of a 64? i hope so. Dan, toss me that list of books. i have no fear of learning, and still respect your attempts to educate the masses. once i feel that i am sufficiently loaded with knowledge, lets go over the data and see what we can find out. if two engineers can't figure it out, then we're in trouble! thanks for your help. ouroboros Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #63 February 20, 2003 QuoteDan, toss me that list of books. PM Hooknswoop, he can set you in a good direction for extracurricular reading in regards to aerodynamics and such. I've studied some of the stuff that he's written on the subject and it is very educational.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TequilaGirl 0 #64 February 20, 2003 Last time I checked - we were discussing gear (a Cobalt) in this forum......and I think a lot of us are upset due to the fact someone won't answer direct questions....they are not "hate posts" - and I am sure since you have 64 jumps and went through AFP you know everything about HP canopies......good luck your going to need it..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rgoper 0 #65 February 20, 2003 Quote good luck your going to need it..... goodness gracious, 100 jump wonders! misty water cooler memories! thank god they're memories! i wouldn't want to go through all that a second time! --Richard-- "We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #66 February 20, 2003 Quotei came to this for 'gear and rigging' info. instead, i read through post after post of accusations. Do a search on the posts cobaltdan has made in this forum. Don't limit your reading to just posts regarding Cobalts and other Atair products; check out what he has to say about Crossfire's too. Methinks you'll begin to understand what's being said in this thread once you've done so. Quoteimo, education that is free from the personal bias and attacks against a person or company. Personal bias toward one's own company's products is okay though? Attacking other companies and their products is okay too? Quoteenough said about the experience of a 64? i hope so. Yup. You're obviously far more skilled and knowledgable than any of us were when we had 64 jumps. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
johnny1488 1 #67 February 20, 2003 If there had been personal attacks in here it would be, (name), you lick balls or (name), your product sucks because I dont like it. In this case its been people asking questions about claims that obviously cant be backed up. Regardless of charts about wingloading performance (that any manufacturer would have and gladly share) its more to the point been asking about the use of the cobalt as a student (or beginner) canopy. By your wingloading you should be about 220 out the door. At 64 jumps if you think your ready for a highly elliptical 170 squarefoot canopy, good luck to you. Whats wrong with a 190 that was recommended to you by your jump school. What made you feel you were ready for a hp 170. If people here (or on the dz) tell you its a bad idea its not because they're afraid of you proving them wrong. It's cause they dont want to see you bouncing off the landing area. I think the potential for disaster is there and any manufacturer that says its perfectly fine is irresponsible. Johnny --"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!" Mike Rome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ouroboros 0 #68 February 21, 2003 thanks for the luck! nothing wrong with the 190's i demoed. liked them. liked the cobalt 170 better. i also liked the SDC AFP course. we did safires at 210 and 190. i did two jumps on a 170 and didn't like it's landing performance. when i asked around, i was told about stilettos and cobalts, and looked into them. the demos clinched it- i found the cobalt 170 to be within my learning curve. as to the difference in what a 64 may know now vs what a 64 knew then, well... i can offer only that i probably went through a different course (AFP may not have been offered) in my learning how to be a skydiver. that, i believe, is a topic for a different thread. sincerely, ouroboros Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freakflyer69 0 #69 February 21, 2003 well it sound to me like dan made some opinionated statements and maybe some "hype" that could not be backed up with physics or facts its too bad he cant go back to erase these statements because at this point it sounds like nothing can be done to gain any real respect with some people . Any way at the rate this is going If I were him I would feel like from this point on I would have to write then read then reread then have someone else proof read and then question every word and expect every word to be disected not that any of you have, but I feel all this tension yet I have nothing to defend. Oh well maybe an apollogy and an oops wont do it again would help. hopefully we will see! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 14 #70 February 21, 2003 Of course you'd like the 170 better... did you try a Stiletto 170? And AFP is'nt that different then most student programs. Its typical for alot of people that have a large technical background to try to move it over to jumping.. but it does'nt work that way. They were still debating at PIA 99?? about why do round canopies open the way that they do. PD was quoted in a trade rag that they have only guess at to how a canopy will fly before they actually jump a new design. There are a lot of unknowns in jumping and the only way to answer any of them is experience. Hang around a DZ, watch the riggers and the students and you'll see that most jumpers are the same... there are those that have hurt themself's and there are those that are going to hurt themself.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rgoper 0 #71 February 21, 2003 we've covered a lot of ground in this post string. what i know about, i have spoken about, i try to stay away from speculation. Atair as a whole is a good company, from my experience. Dan Preston has a position with this company and of course it is his job to concieve ideas, retrieve feedback, etc...etc...has he said some things that need explaining, i think so, does he have some unanswered questions here? i think so, well i think we'll all agree that all of us here in the forums have done this same thing on one or more occasions. but remember, Dan also has the responseability to the company he works for, so he has to be very careful in how he responds, and what he says, he knows this, hell, we all do. now, i will speak on something that i know about that Dan does do that impresses me, he does take care of his customers. whether you like Atair's products (or Dan for that matter) or comments that have/and or have not been made, Dan does take care of his customers. i told him personally i thought his Cobalt 170^2 was a "real piece" (not my exact words) he listened. he agreed to do whatever it took to make me happy with my canopy situation. he even offered to do the H-mod for free to my existing canopy, instead we decided to build me the competition Cobalt 170^2, with the same custom colors as the one they built for me already has. i am satisfied with this situation. now, don't get me wrong, if this canopy doesn't perform any better i'll certainly advise, but i'm optomistic! i think it's a good idea for somebody to build a larger canopy that is a high performance canopy to keep all of our "newbies" from getting on the "downsizing wagon" when things are cool, i say they're cool, when they're not, ya'll know i'll advise that as well. what Dan has said, or done in the past can be worked out, but he does take care of his customers, that says a lot about the man, and the company he represents. i got no ass to kiss, i got no alliance with a manufacturer, i just tell it like it is. by the way, thanks for responding today Dan...--Richard-- "We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
f1freak 0 #72 February 21, 2003 QuoteBut exactly what I liked about it ( and I have jumoed themn at lighter wingloadings) makes it un-suitable for students or beginers. Compare this to beginers jumping the miserable PD(non ZP ) or say the saber , or sabre 2's...... I mean at a light loading it will be all good.... Shit 8 years ago people said a beginner under a sabre was a problem..... I dont know.... I see the cobalt at a light loading to be a great "Beginner" canopy..... We cant stop the progress... Look at BOC for students.... I just think at the right loading an elliptical or "semi" elliptical is fine for a beginner... It's all about what you learn with....HAVE FUN... ...JUST DONT DIE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rgoper 0 #73 February 21, 2003 QuoteIt's all about what you learn with.... i'll agree completely with this statement. but i'm sure you'll agree it is our responseability as "upjumpers" coaches, AFF, TDM1, instructors etc...to "provide correct information, all of the time" this is a big responseability one which we must at least meet, or exceed when conveying information to the new generation of sky divers. what kept everybody alive 20 years, even 10 years ago has evolved, we must "stay on the learning curve" but in doing so, not forgetting the "information age" either. after all, this may be the one thing that will "save that ass" in our ever increasing litigious society. let's face it, people who sky dive like them selves, we all have egos, most "Type A" personalities, hopeless adrenaline junkies, or we wouldn't defy death like we do in a sport that we all know is not safe. so it's up to each of us to watch each others back in every aspect of our sport.--Richard-- "We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Canuck 0 #74 February 21, 2003 Question for ya Dan. You say earlier in this thread that the Cobalt 170 was designed slightly differently so that it would open faster. So, rather than making all the 170's competition cobalts, why wouldn't you just start building the 170's like all the other sizes? Surely this is possible as you explained to me a year ago how ALL cobalts are geometrically scaled and open the same when I wrote to you concerned about the 105's that were said to open hard. So......? Canuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
f1freak 0 #75 February 21, 2003 Well said... So true.....HAVE FUN... ...JUST DONT DIE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
