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Kris 0
Quotethat's because he can't and won't. there have been a few people asking intelligent questions, about previous postings and claims that ATAIR is making.
No kidding. I'm still waiting on the results from the "NASA Windtunnel Test". I don't think I'll be seeing those numbers anytime soon.
Kris
Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and
Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™
Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™
Hooknswoop 19
*Bump*
Waiting................
Hook
Waiting................
Hook
QuoteWaiting................
waiting for the answer from dan about the student canopy?? well, i wouldn't count on a answer, or at least a truthful answer.
later
already answered.
sincerely,
dan
sincerely,
dan
Daniel Preston <><>
atairaerodynamics.com (sport)
atairaerospace.com (military)
atairaerodynamics.com (sport)
atairaerospace.com (military)
Hooknswoop 19
"already answered. "
No you didn't.
I asked:
"What DZ uses Cobalt 170's (and possibly smaller? Cobalts) as student canopies? "
I asked you:
"Does Atair have a chart showing performance vs. wing loading for the Cobalt?, not a recommended wing loading chart, most manufactures have those, PD has it right on the label. "
You answered:
"check out our web site faq page. "
I responded:
"I did, you have a "recommended wing loading" chart, same as every other manufacturer. I asked if you have "a chart showing performance vs. wing loading for the Cobalt"
So where is Atair's chart showing performance vs. wing loading for the Cobalt?, after all "with dataloggers 1 jump per wingloading (although more is better) is all that is needed to gather the data required for a super performance chart. the pilot must fly a general routine"
I asked you:
"Why do you say a square canopy (Sabre) will have more forward speed at the same wing loading as the Cobalt, but the Cobalt has less drag and is more efficient? Isn't this contradictory? "
You responded:
"no it isn't. "
I still do not understand this, and you still have not explained it to me. I understand that planform is only one variable. But a tapered canopy is more efficient than a square canopy. If the Sabre has more airspeed than a Cobalt, at the same wing loading, then the Sabre must have a steeper line trim, more efficient airfoil or some other characteristic that makes it faster.
I asked:
"Are you an Instructor?"
I asked:
"Have you used Cobalt 170's as student canopies, or for beginners?"
You said:
"and btw we have always used pia standards of measure."
I asked:
"Like your definition of a cell?"
http://www.pia.com/piapubs/TS%20Documents/ts-100.pdf
So, no, you have not already answered.
If you are going to make these claims, I am going to call you on them. I already got you to admit the Cobalt does not make a good student canopy, after you "accidentally" interchanged "STUDENT" with "BEGINNER" FOUR times.
So we have a few more questions before we get to "answered".
Hook
No you didn't.
I asked:
"What DZ uses Cobalt 170's (and possibly smaller? Cobalts) as student canopies? "
I asked you:
"Does Atair have a chart showing performance vs. wing loading for the Cobalt?, not a recommended wing loading chart, most manufactures have those, PD has it right on the label. "
You answered:
"check out our web site faq page. "
I responded:
"I did, you have a "recommended wing loading" chart, same as every other manufacturer. I asked if you have "a chart showing performance vs. wing loading for the Cobalt"
So where is Atair's chart showing performance vs. wing loading for the Cobalt?, after all "with dataloggers 1 jump per wingloading (although more is better) is all that is needed to gather the data required for a super performance chart. the pilot must fly a general routine"
I asked you:
"Why do you say a square canopy (Sabre) will have more forward speed at the same wing loading as the Cobalt, but the Cobalt has less drag and is more efficient? Isn't this contradictory? "
You responded:
"no it isn't. "
I still do not understand this, and you still have not explained it to me. I understand that planform is only one variable. But a tapered canopy is more efficient than a square canopy. If the Sabre has more airspeed than a Cobalt, at the same wing loading, then the Sabre must have a steeper line trim, more efficient airfoil or some other characteristic that makes it faster.
I asked:
"Are you an Instructor?"
I asked:
"Have you used Cobalt 170's as student canopies, or for beginners?"
You said:
"and btw we have always used pia standards of measure."
I asked:
"Like your definition of a cell?"
http://www.pia.com/piapubs/TS%20Documents/ts-100.pdf
So, no, you have not already answered.
If you are going to make these claims, I am going to call you on them. I already got you to admit the Cobalt does not make a good student canopy, after you "accidentally" interchanged "STUDENT" with "BEGINNER" FOUR times.
So we have a few more questions before we get to "answered".
Hook
I sure didnt see these questions answered. why? also hey guys lets be civil it loooks like afew of you really have a personal issue with dan, do you have stock in pd or something? may be it would be easier for dan to answer if you wernt so aggressive?!
dan come on man stand up and be straight forward with your answers the questions are very specific and pleeeease dont repost the same shi!@# that you have reposted again and again, or admit a mistake for false claims. just put an end to this
dan come on man stand up and be straight forward with your answers the questions are very specific and pleeeease dont repost the same shi!@# that you have reposted again and again, or admit a mistake for false claims. just put an end to this
The reason why Hook's post seems short, its because these same questions have been asked of Dan Preston numerous times, each time Dan basically skirts around them.
The recommendations Dan Preston has made and continues to make, putting students/beginners out on his elliptical platform is very dangerous, and we're looking for factual answers backed with real data to his claims.
I'm worried that someone will get very badly broken or killed on the recommendations that Dan makes.
The recommendations Dan Preston has made and continues to make, putting students/beginners out on his elliptical platform is very dangerous, and we're looking for factual answers backed with real data to his claims.
I'm worried that someone will get very badly broken or killed on the recommendations that Dan makes.
--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."
Hooknswoop 19
QuoteI sure didnt see these questions answered. why? also hey guys lets be civil it loooks like afew of you really have a personal issue with dan, do you have stock in pd or something? may be it would be easier for dan to answer if you wernt so aggressive?!
dan come on man stand up and be straight forward with your answers the questions are very specific and pleeeease dont repost the same shi!@# that you have reposted again and again, or admit a mistake for false claims. just put an end to this
I have not attacked cobaltdan personally. I have challenged statements he has made and he repeatedly dodges the questions with Atair rhetoric. No I do not have stock in PD, nor do I have anything against Atair. I used to own an Alpha 94 and I thought it was a good canopy. I do have issues with his claims, claims that he does not/can not back up. When called on them, he dodges the questions, answering without answering. He claimed to have video of a pilot chute producing 20+ "g's" with the canopy still in the bag. When I looked at the video, it clearly showed the canopy out of the bag before the "G" spike. After asking him several times, he finally said, "you can't see the spike on the downloadable video". He contradicts himself constantly. If it appears that I am being harsh w/ cobaltdan, it is because any other way and he simply won't answer to his claims. Read his posts and his replies to questions.
If any of us that are asking Dan to answer questions regarding his claims appear to have it in personally for cobaltdan, the moderators would have said something. We are simply showing that his claims are not correct. For example, he said Atair recommends using Cobalt 170's (the largest Cobalt canopy currently being built) for student use. He either used the word student or answered in the affirmative that the Cobalt was an acceptable student canopy four times. He finally said he had mistakenly used the word student instead of beginner, four times. So what if a jumper with 15 jumps or so read that the Cobalt is a good student/beginner canopy loaded at 1.2:1 and buys one at that wing loading, after jumping large student-type canopies?
As for being aggressive, I have had to ask many times without getting solid answers to my questions, it gets frustrating after a while. Even you recognize that he is not being straight forward, and requesting him to [qoute] pleeeease dont repost the same shi!@# that you have reposted again and again, or admit a mistake for false claims.
I don't have stock in PD, I take stock in the truth.
Hook
i fly a cobalt 170, loaded at 1.3 and have had nice, neat openings. i have had two lousy openings due to messed up body position and getting the correct packing issues worked out (i asked around and found a packer who had some ideas on how to pack my rig). no line twists, no kicking out of anything, no hassles in the air. had an end cell closed once or twice- fixable with a practice landing deep flair. i like the canopy, it fits what i want (soft openings, high performance, more flair at the end of a landing) and it does what the Atair website and Dan P continue to explain: it works.
i read every now and then on the boards here at DZ.com about cobalts not performing up to specs. i believe in the canopy that i fly, and trust it to do what it's supposed to do. when i deploy my cobalt 170, it does what it's supposed to do. to me, that's what the canopy is all about. i am still willing to learn, no matter what kind of canopy i fly, and that just might be the key here. i learned how to deploy and fly my 170. if my skills ever progress to the point where i decide i can handle the risks of a smaller main, i will 're'-learn that canopy too. cobalt, safire, stiletto, or what- still have to learn.
else, imo, the attacks on Atair / Dan P are pretty obvious. we are lucky Dan has decided to answer anything in the format and context these forums provide to us, much less be baited. it takes guts to put yourself out there for people, and i just hope Atair continues to provide the community with information, no matter how it is taken.
lastly, i also see the transparency of the stated legal implications of advice, also mentioned several times in this thread. if the goal was to show ignorance of the legal community, imo it has met with success. if attacks against Dan are going to take this new direction, please read up on (your) local slander litigation before continueing; it will make for a better post. As Dan said- i can provide you with a list of law books which will help. got my vector? ;)
in sincerity,
ouroboros
i read every now and then on the boards here at DZ.com about cobalts not performing up to specs. i believe in the canopy that i fly, and trust it to do what it's supposed to do. when i deploy my cobalt 170, it does what it's supposed to do. to me, that's what the canopy is all about. i am still willing to learn, no matter what kind of canopy i fly, and that just might be the key here. i learned how to deploy and fly my 170. if my skills ever progress to the point where i decide i can handle the risks of a smaller main, i will 're'-learn that canopy too. cobalt, safire, stiletto, or what- still have to learn.
else, imo, the attacks on Atair / Dan P are pretty obvious. we are lucky Dan has decided to answer anything in the format and context these forums provide to us, much less be baited. it takes guts to put yourself out there for people, and i just hope Atair continues to provide the community with information, no matter how it is taken.
lastly, i also see the transparency of the stated legal implications of advice, also mentioned several times in this thread. if the goal was to show ignorance of the legal community, imo it has met with success. if attacks against Dan are going to take this new direction, please read up on (your) local slander litigation before continueing; it will make for a better post. As Dan said- i can provide you with a list of law books which will help. got my vector? ;)
in sincerity,
ouroboros
skycat 0
Username: ouroboros
palika goldstein
Home DZ: skydive chicago
License: A A37363
Licensing Org: USPA
Number of Jumps: 64
1st off since it has been writen it would be called libel.
Let me guess the reason you are supporting Dan is cause you personally talked to him and he told you as a beginer the cobalt would be a great canopy for you? Also you learned at a DZ that trained you on a ZP canopy at ~.8-1:1 If you research other DZs this is not the case most still use very large F-111.
Kelli
Post approved by my Legal consultant
palika goldstein
Home DZ: skydive chicago
License: A A37363
Licensing Org: USPA
Number of Jumps: 64
1st off since it has been writen it would be called libel.
Let me guess the reason you are supporting Dan is cause you personally talked to him and he told you as a beginer the cobalt would be a great canopy for you? Also you learned at a DZ that trained you on a ZP canopy at ~.8-1:1 If you research other DZs this is not the case most still use very large F-111.
Kelli
Post approved by my Legal consultant
Fly it like you stole it!
Crossfires are the "best" canopy that I have jumped, by the same logic should I recommend a really ground hungry canopy to a novice?
"In our sleep, pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart and in our despair, against our will comes wisdom" - Aeschylus
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