dgskydive 0 #26 December 30, 2008 Quotebut probably should have simply rolled over to check above and behind vice stopping my track and doing the 2 180's. Won't do it again. Barrel rolling or going to your back is not a very good idea either. A barrel roll is not going to give you time to clearly see anything and going to your back is not going to help you maintain a flat track and is not a good idea either. My biggest suggestion to you would be to get to a skills camp before you hurt yourself or someone else. I dont say this to try to attack you, but the things you are saying that you did and "should" have done are not the smartest choices. Please carefully read this thread and take the advice that has already been given about how to look around and stay aware. I used to think that I was a really good tracker until I jumped with people that could track really good, then had to learn all over again. It took until my 1st 100 way and seeing a guy my height and abuot 15 or 20 pounds heavier then me float up on me and scoot out like there was no tomorrow. Please speak to Sally Hathaway or Oren at Zhills about your tracking habits. They will must surely give you the help that you need.Dom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,621 #27 December 31, 2008 Take a look at p77 of the January 2009 "Parachutist"! This is a track away from a 100-way? Yikes!... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jsaxton 0 #28 December 31, 2008 Quote Take a look at p77 of the January 2009 "Parachutist"! This is a track away from a 100-way? Yikes! Briing out the AX! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dgskydive 0 #29 December 31, 2008 Dont have a copy. is it really ugly?Dom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,621 #30 December 31, 2008 QuoteDont have a copy. is it really ugly? Looks more like a late diver trying to catch the base.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dgskydive 0 #31 December 31, 2008 LOL!!! Does it say where the jump was and who the organizer was?Dom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,621 #32 December 31, 2008 QuoteLOL!!! Does it say where the jump was and who the organizer was? Perris, 100 way, no organizer named.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dgskydive 0 #33 December 31, 2008 QuotePerris, 100 way, no organizer named. Oh no.Dom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
denete 2 #34 December 31, 2008 Quote Take a look at p77 of the January 2009 "Parachutist"! This is a track away from a 100-way? Yikes! I saw that too, after reading several of the "break-off and track" threads and was taken aback a bit.SCR #14809 "our attitude is the thing most capable of keeping us safe" (look, grab, look, grab, peel, punch, punch, arch) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 24 #35 January 1, 2009 QuoteQuote Take a look at p77 of the January 2009 "Parachutist"! This is a track away from a 100-way? Yikes! I saw that too, after reading several of the "break-off and track" threads and was taken aback a bit. I think you guys are over-reacting to a simple error. I am betting the caption is simply wrong. From the perspective of the ground, and the body position, I`m willing to put money on the picture being of a swoop.Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mdrejhon 8 #36 January 1, 2009 People who have flown this 100way recognize this as a swoop, not a breakoff. The caption's wrong. This would be a stupid way to breakoff :-) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,621 #37 January 1, 2009 Some pictures of tracking with (I think) you in them: www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1506766#1506766... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,621 #38 January 1, 2009 I received a PM about tracking that set me thinking: I've been on a bunch of big ways and not ever been aware that tracking has been systematically evaluated, either before, during or after the event. The videographers don't systematically record the breakoff, and no camera on the ground systematically records breakoff. The input requested on every event application (including bigways.com) has no question about tracking. The debriefs have almost nothing to say about tracking. Sure we get the "track like your life depends on it" talk and maybe get assigned to a tracking team, but that's about it.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ltdiver 3 #39 January 1, 2009 QuoteThe videographers don't systematically record the breakoff, and no camera on the ground systematically records breakoff. Maybe something for a big-way camp organizer to add to the instruction. I'd vote for a ground camera person to catch the break-off sequence. The in-air cameraflyers are, at break-off time, normally getting -themselves- out of harms way before someone opens under them. Speaking for myself, I wouldn't want to stick around while canopies are possibly popping up around me. Cameraflyers are either pulling in place at the -start- of break-off....or tracking with the group, clearing their own air space, and pulling with them, albeit a bit higher. ltdiver Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dgskydive 0 #40 January 1, 2009 That is me. During that time I was working on not falling out turning my 180. Hence it taking me longer to get into a full track. You on the other hand had boogied on out!! One of the reasons that I realized at over 1000 jumps that I still had a long way to go to be a really good tracker!!Dom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dgskydive 0 #41 January 1, 2009 Lol. Here is a quote from me, from that post. QuoteI learned alot about tracking during this event as well. I thought I was pretty good until I was next to Mark Tennison and John Appleton. Those two can track amazingly well!!!!!!! I was humbled by them for sure. Now, everytime I jump with Mark I try and track with him to work out my issues. I think if I lost another 10 punds I could get him though!! Again, I had over 1000 jumps at that point and had been on 100 ways before this, but it was my first experience on the far outside of the formation. Nobody on the jump or the LO's said that I needed improvement, but, like I said above. Those guys and you, showed me that I still had some work to do.Dom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mdrejhon 8 #42 January 2, 2009 QuoteI've been on a bunch of big ways and not ever been aware that tracking has been systematically evaluated, either before, during or after the event.They did catch me crossing the paths in the first few seconds of a track, as posted in Page 1 of this thread. At P3 big ways, they start with 20 ways, which allows the organizers to observe little bits and pieces of everyone's tracking after several jumps, and give a good impression of how everyone is able to track, after two days worth of 20-ways -- i.e. they do catch glaringly bad trackers eventually after the first few 20-way jumps, and assist them. So while it's not fully systematic, they do notice issues in tracking, and the Perris P3 team does analyze the beginning of a track during video debrief (where it's in the video), including tracking team coherency. In bigways that has multiple angles (3 cameras), most of the tracking teams are caught at the first few seconds. That said, I'm sure there's ideas to be had for better debriefs of breakoffs. There are a lot of safety aspects of the bigways that needs attention, other than tracking too, and the safety record of the P3 camps has been very good overall. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,621 #43 January 2, 2009 QuoteQuoteI've been on a bunch of big ways and not ever been aware that tracking has been systematically evaluated, either before, during or after the event.They did catch me crossing the paths in the first few seconds of a track, as posted in Page 1 of this thread. At P3 big ways, they start with 20 ways, which allows the organizers to observe little bits and pieces of everyone's tracking after several jumps, and give a good impression of how everyone is able to track, after two days worth of 20-ways -- i.e. they do catch glaringly bad trackers eventually after the first few 20-way jumps, and assist them. So while it's not fully systematic, they do notice issues in tracking, and the Perris P3 team does analyze the beginning of a track during video debrief (where it's in the video), including tracking team coherency. In bigways that has multiple angles (3 cameras), most of the tracking teams are caught at the first few seconds. That said, I'm sure there's ideas to be had for better debriefs of breakoffs. There are a lot of safety aspects of the bigways that needs attention, other than tracking too, and the safety record of the P3 camps has been very good overall. Compared with the attention given to red zone work, (no) momentum docks, being on radial, etc. etc., tracking doesn't receive a whole lot of attention, does it?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mdrejhon 8 #44 January 2, 2009 QuoteCompared with the attention given to red zone work, (no) momentum docks, being on radial, etc. etc., tracking doesn't receive a whole lot of attention, does it?Not really. I did observe, however, P3 teaches the importance of tracking teams (which automatically reduces many kinds of tracking problems), so they are already more focussed on that than the cookiecutter 20-way camps I had been to for a long time. As well as other tracking aspects than other bigway camps I had gone to. I observed that video debrief attention to tracking teams at the Texas Winter Bigway camp was good, but that only covers the 180 degree turn, tracking team formation, and first few seconds of a track, and only in the videos that allowed such debrief. It hasn't been until I went to P3 for the first time in May 2008, that I learned the concept of the 'tracking team'... I'm not saying there isn't room for improvement though. It may be that there hasn't been a massive wake-up call lately such as this freefall collison fatality after a bigway breakoff. No kidding -- I imagine they ARE going to focus on these little details a lot more now with this fatality. Hopefully! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gemini 0 #45 January 3, 2009 Let's reiterate the basic procedure when you are low on a big way just to make sure everyone is clear. There are two parts consisting of (1) low, but recoverable, and (2) low and irrecoverable. (1) If you are low, keep working to get back to the formation. Do not fly under the formation. Get off to one side, turn 90 to the formation, turn your head and while watching the formation use all the techniques you have to get back. Never give up and never lose sight of the formation and where you are relative to the formation. When low you become part of the first break-off wave. You break off with the first wave and track through the first wave designated deployment altitude giving an extra 300-500 feet. This insures that you are horizontally out with the first wave, but slightly below them. They can better see you if you are in front and slightly below them when they wave off. 2. If you are irretreiveably low your break off changes dramatically. But what is irretrievably low? We have all seen jumpers below us who disappear into the ground clutter. Regardless of their efforts to slow their fall rate, they get further and further away. If the jumpers above you can't see you when they turn to track, you are a hazard to them and yourself! How do you judge being irretreiveably low? If you lose sight of the base and don't know where it is, you are not getting back! In this case, immediately locate the formation and turn 180 and get out of the area. You must locate the formation in order to track away from it. Jack mentioned the guy racing around under the formation. The same thing happens to trackers who don't know where the base is. We have all had trackers go under us at 40/60 degree angles from the base! And remember, track all the way though the first wave deployment alititude. When low you are always part of the first wave. Make sure you know the first wave break off and deployment altitudes during the dirt dives just in case you need them. It is better to have a long walk back to the dz than a helicopter ride to the hospital. Blue skies, Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
danornan 64 #46 January 4, 2009 QuoteQuoteCompared with the attention given to red zone work, (no) momentum docks, being on radial, etc. etc., tracking doesn't receive a whole lot of attention, does it?Not really. I did observe, however, P3 teaches the importance of tracking teams (which automatically reduces many kinds of tracking problems), so they are already more focussed on that than the cookiecutter 20-way camps I had been to for a long time. As well as other tracking aspects than other bigway camps I had gone to. I observed that video debrief attention to tracking teams at the Texas Winter Bigway camp was good, but that only covers the 180 degree turn, tracking team formation, and first few seconds of a track, and only in the videos that allowed such debrief. It hasn't been until I went to P3 for the first time in May 2008, that I learned the concept of the 'tracking team'... I'm not saying there isn't room for improvement though. It may be that there hasn't been a massive wake-up call lately such as this freefall collison fatality after a bigway breakoff. No kidding -- I imagine they ARE going to focus on these little details a lot more now with this fatality. Hopefully! I have been on several big way formations in the past year and a lot of time and attention is spent on break-off. Numerous walk throughs on the dirt dive; I.E., first wave leave at 6,000 track to X, second wave leave at 5,500, track to X. A lot of time is spent and numerous dirt dives in practice. THIS is not being ignored nor is it taken lightly. I generally have more clean air on a 100-way then a local walk up 20-way!Dano Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SARLDO 0 #47 January 4, 2009 An excellent answer to my earlier question. Thank you Jim."Always do right. This will gratify some people and astonish the rest" ~Samuel Clemens MB#4300 Dudeist Skydiver #68 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #48 January 4, 2009 QuoteAn excellent answer to my earlier question. Thank you Jim. I also think that Jim's way is how to do it. it should be default, but if it's not, then I'll follow the organizer's instructions if they differ. If I disagree with the break off the organizer directs (they are significantly different than the above that I think it's a safety issue), then I'll pull myself off rather than follow some different procedure - and I'll privately tell the organizer why. We had quite a thread on this a while back. It was disturbing to read posts where people said they'd follow their own procedure instead of the organizer's direction (rather than just bow out of the dive or bring it up during the dive as a safety concern). They key thing is we all need to be on the same page to minimize surprises. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gemini 0 #49 January 4, 2009 One thing I forgot to mention, however, is the frequent misunderstanding of the jumper's actual radial from the base which often leads to trackers crossing other radials and going over and under each other. For example if a jumper is docked at a 45 degree angle from the base, he shouldn't turn 180 degrees to start his track unless specifically directed by an organizer. Usually his turn is 135 degrees from the base so that he would be tracking in a straight line directly away from the center of the formation. The 45 degree difference would throw him significantly off his radial. When the dock is at a substantial angle, it is easily seen and corrected by the jumper. The dangerous ones seem to be those that are 5-10 degrees off so the jumper does not notice and tracks off at a 170-175 or a 185-190 degree angle. The larger the big way the smaller the tracking lanes become. Blue skies, Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
3331 108 #50 January 4, 2009 Tracking picture attached.I Jumped with the guys who invented Skydiving. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
