Why Wind Tunnels Benefits Big Ways

[mdrejhon 8]

Aka, "How to be on well on your way to World Team in less than 500 jumps".

A 150-jump russian did his first 100-way at the Perris Big Way Camp. How? He jumped with many World Team members (lots of RW) AND also had tunnel time. Other people, under 400 jumps, myself included, are now members of the 100-way club. What is in common with all of us low-jump members of the 100-way club? TUNNEL TIME! So this is what this post will be about, to help people understand how tunnel actually helps bigways.

Also, very few members of the 400-way World Record had less than 1000 jumps. Only 9 had had less than 1000 jumps on World Team '06 -- according to TheWorldTeam.com '06 Team Members Listing. I was able to talk to some of them, as well as other people who know them. Although there were rare exceptions, the vast majority of those had tunnel time.

Below are generalizations about bigway-relevant tunnel coaching based on my encounters with multiple coaches that teach all the below techniques, including Team Evolution of NouvelAir (Chris Lemay, Vincent Lemay, etc), and Perris Fury (Christy Frikken, etc), in my near-5-hours of tunnel time and my recent entry to the 100-way club. These techniques are not normally taught by most tunnel instructors.

______________________

Tunnel Training Techniques -- Useful to "RED ZONE" in Big Ways

Fallrate Training
The coach commands the tunnel operator to crank the tunnel down as slow as possible. You try to keep flying as motionless above the net without bumping into the walls or the net. The coach commands the tunnel operator cranks the tunnel as fast as possible. You try to fall fast, keep flying motionless without rising more than a few feet above the net. The coach may fly up and down too, suddenly stop movement, you're also supposed to quickly match the coach's level, and stop on a dime. This can be very challenging when the wind tunnel is cranked slow, and can feel like a waste of tunnel minutes at first, but this pays dividends later.
Why This Benefits Bigways: It is surprising how many jumpers, when they get low, begin to fly unstable all over the place below the formation, because they can't fall-slow stable and turned 90 degrees. They panic and end up flying under multiple people, taking some of them out. Tunnel time solves this dangerous problem in a hurry. Especially if you forgot to wear your sweatshirt or slowfall jumpsuit in a more-challenging-than-expected slot, or just simply went low for whatever reason even not of your fault. You pop right back up instantly back into an empty space in the stadium, and redo your approach smooth. And being able to stop at level on a dime, helps in part to prevent you from going low in the first place, and quickly adjust for sudden fallrate changes in a formation and help damp out level-uneveness in a formation.

Distorted Body Training
You try to fly in the middle of the tunnel next to your coach. You mimic your coach in body distortions such as reaching your back with one of your hands, or one knee down, or arms in strange positions and motions, without bumping into the walls or the trampoline net. Swimmng motions, strange body positions, etc.
Why This Benefits Bigways: In a bigway, you'll experience distorted body positions as your docked neighbours pull and push on you, or bump into you unexpectedly, distorting your bellyfly shape. You need to be able to deal with this and still fly stable, and even successfully resist this in later stability training, without being taken out or being funneled.

Stability Training
You fly in the middle of the tunnel, as motionless as possible. The coach pushes you, pulls you, bumps you, puts a leg and arm under you, and even flies briefly underneath you. Your job is to stay as still as possible. Your distorted body training helps ready you for this training.
Why This Benefits Bigways: Red zone is full of tight flying, sometimes with somebody's arm and leg accidentally underneath you. You become much more burble-resistant and automatically 'fly the burble' seamlessly, and your body automatically does evasive manoevers. I had a quick recovery from a 'red zone' flying on one of the 36 bigway camp jumps, thanks to such tunnel time. Also, stability training is useful for locking your position in the slot, and damping out waves in the formation. While you must dock gentle initially, however, unlike in 4-ways, in a bigway you often can't have finger-light grips in a bouncy, wavy big way: You must resist action with opposite action: You must press when pushed and you must pull when pulled -- to prevent yourself from being moved around in your slot when others push or pull you around. When everybody does this, the resonant waving/ripples from somebody's momentum docks on the other end, is damped out before the ripples reach the other end of the formation. Your stability training helps makes the formation stable.

Follow The Leader - Docks
The leader randomly moves around the tunnel, sometimes threatening to fly into/over/under you. You chase the leader and try to dock satellite on him/her as quickly and smoothly as possible, while doing evasive action to avoid being 'taken out'.
Why This Benefits Bigways: Again, red zone is full of tight flying. Although you MUST keep your eyes on the center of the bigway formation, you need evasive skills to avoid being taken out by someone flying INTO you (or you INTO them), especially if your levels are different to the point that a funnel is possible. This exercise trains you for automatic evasive action and speedy recover, an excellent Red Zone skill to have.

Follow The Leader - No Docks
The coach flies in all directions, up, down, left, right, forward, backwards, and superpositions of such (i.e. diagonally, of a 3D motion). You must copycat quickly and smoothly fly in sync with the leader, side by side or face-to-face.
Why This Benefits Bigways: When you get good, you're able to stay in sync as much as possible, so that it looks like synchronized ballet, anticipating the coach's unpredictable movement quickly, and you're moving in sync with the coach as immediately as you can. By being able to have fine movements, you're able to for example, move diagonally to better fine-tune your lock in your radial in your stadium without being fearful of your neighbours taking you out. Another useful application is that you're able to sheepdog your formation neighbours inside the redzone more closely without being fearful of the sheepdog taking you out or vice-versa. If your sheepdog suddenly stops, you're able to stop before you bump into your sheepdog, etc. Being closer to your sheepdog means you're closer to your slot, and can make a dock more quickly on cue, and gently without rushing to the slot from a distance that might end up being an unstable momentum dock.

Flyovers & Flyunders - Burble Training
You fly over and under your coach intentionally, to fly as seamlessly as possible through their burble. As you get better, you fly slower and lower above your coach, which is more challenging because of a more difficult burble.
Why This Benefits Bigways: You can more resist being funneled by a neighbour that might take you out, or as a quick recovery from an occasional accidental red-zone collision that might have actually been your fault; a quick recovery for both you and the other guy, makes this a more forgivable offense that prevents you from being cut from the bigway jump. This is valuable skill to have to prevent yourself from being cut from the bigway record attempt, especially if you also carefully execute your recovery to the other person's benefit; i.e. getting out from under someone quickly before the burble interferes too much with his/her flying.

2-Way Practice (And 3-Ways and 4-Ways)
Essentially RW in the tunnel. You fly with your coach in the tunnel and score points. Sometimes the coach will fly with 2 or 3 other people.
Why This Benefits Bigways: This is useful, because it helps exercise various skills, including fallrate matching, being able to turn without bumping into someone or the plexiglass walls of the tunnel, and being able to transition between points more easily. Although most bigways are 1-point endeavours, you might end up having to turn 90 degrees inside tight bigway traffic and then dock soft initially. And you may have multipoint bigways too, that requires you to let go gently without popping/falling low/backsliding and taking a neighbour out between points. Generic RW skills are always useful for bigways, and sharing the chamber with multiple people also cuts the cost of a portion of tunnel training, in a carefully balanced mix of tunnel training. You also stare across the middle of the 4-way, while being able to keep other people in the corner of your eye for smooth docks. This is also relevant to smooth docks in a bigway and reducing "grip fixation" which is bad in a big way. Due to being able to split the costs of sharing the tunnel chamber, my personal 4-way experience is that 4-way in a tunnel can be as low as one-tenth as much per minute as a skydive, which makes it one of many useful method to get to bigways at lower cost and fewer jumps. Doing 4-ways in tunnel, should not, however, totally replace one-on-one tunnel coaching from a good RW/bigway instructor, but as a healthy mix of tunnel time along with jumping in the sky too.

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NOTE: There are also other tunnel training techniques as well. Also, tunnel time is NOT a substitute for skydiving in the sky. However, combined with RW formation jumping and bigway camp experience, it is developing 150-jump to 400-jump people, myself included, that are new members of the 100-way club -- and potential future recipients of World Record provisional invitations, according to the organizers of the Perris 100-Way Camp! It is also critically important that low-jumpers have excellent canopy coaching, with the scary canopy traffic a 100-way can potentially bring. This is beyond the scope of thsi post, but should be part of any low-jumpers journy to the bigways. Extensive RW jumping with multiple World Team members is another useful technique.

Based on my personal experience at the Perris 100-ways, every sub-500 jumper seemed to have plenty of tunnel time. Amazingly, we had a russian in the 100 way camp that just passed the 150-jump mark. (He jumped a lot with World Team members who vouched for him, and also had lots of tunnel time)

It is my and many other people's opinion (including the bigway organizers at Perris Big Way Camp) that tunnel is helping low-jumpers make it into bigway leagues. Perris has its own wind tunnel, which has been helping them innovate in tunnel training techniques that show relevance to bigway camps. There were several jumpers at 150 jumps through 400 jumps at the Perris 100-way camps. (As of this writing of this post, I have 358 jumps) Every single person that I was able to ask or ask a friend about, they had tunnel time that compensated for the low jump numbers!

Skyventures that weren't yet built back at the time of the 300-way world record, 357-way, and 400-way, are now built reasonably nearby. Which means it's easier for more people to learn "red zone" skills than ever before, that are applicable to bigway camps and beyond. There are new bigway-relevant tunnel training techniques, that were not really common in say, 2004, that are routinely being done right now in more places than ever by more instructors than before.

Tunnel sessions, with a RW coach familiar with bigway skills can exercise the above listed skills. Examples include members of the Perris Fury team, with special tunnel sessions scheduled during the Perris Big Way and 100-Way Camp. Others such as Airspeed, Team Evolution (Canada), and many other tunnel instructors have excellent tunnel coaching that have similiarities to the coaching techniques described below.

Glossary for the new ones who may not have progressed past 4-ways and might be interested in bigway camps someday...
- Stadium being the cloud of undocked bellyflyers around a big way, resembling points in a big, invisible bowl with the base at the bottom of the bowl.
- Red Zone defines the innermost part of the stadium inside a Big Way where you have to carefully fly without bumping into nearby flyers.
- Sheepdogging defines following a neighbour to the bigway slot, typically in the corner of your eye while you keep your eye at the base.
...You will have to learn the rest at an actual bigway camp. However, this will help understand the terminology in the rest of this post.

These training techniques are NOT usually taught by ordinary tunnel instructors: You frequently must bring in an outside bigway/RW instructor, such as members of Perris Fury, or Airspeed, or other good RW team members that have tunnel coaching abilities, and tell them you want bigway-related tunnel coaching. Almost any tunnel time is useful, but some people get dissapointed at their tunnel instructor and feel that their tunnel training is overpriced and not useful. So experienced flyers who never had more than a few minutes of tunnel time, might find this useful too... (I kind of wish I knew this information earlier)

Tunnel coaching does not solve everything (delta, tracking, canopy control, etc) which must be trained during actual jumping, but red zone skills is a HUGE part of bigway skills. By using tunnel time combined with persistent participation in bigway camps (to the point of becoming skilled enough to be part of bigway events at www.bigways.com), one can more easily become World Team league at, for example, 500 jumps instead of 1000 or 2000 jumps as has been shown by many of the members at the Perris Big Way Camp. This leads to many new jumpers thinking it is impossible to be on The World Team in year 2010 in less than 1000 jumps, when it just takes a lot of tunnel time and persistent participation in bigway camps. Many 1000+ jumpers are often working for dropzones or are primarily freefly, which while helpful, does distort the picture.

Also, some people like me, occasionally has struggles with currency. I had only 20 jumps between the May Big Way Camp and the beginning of August, but a big 17-jump 3-day weekend of RW and 15 minutes of tunnel time in Perris before the bigway camp, kickstarted my performance at the Big Way Camp. Then I had 50 jumps in Perris. That brings my 5-week jump total to 70 (I had only 288 jumps 5 weeks ago, now at 358), and now I am sufficiently good enough to participate in a a portion of the formations listed at bigways.com which I plan to apply to, such as 60-way league events. Climb up from there, to state records such as the Texas or California state record, and keep re-attending the 100-way camps. I still have lots to learn, 100-way camp might not automatically qualify me for say, a California State Record 160-way (have not tried applying yet), but my chances of being accepted in are likely greatly increased, especially if I attend at least one more camp before then.

It's easier than one thinks, to be a World Team member. Kate Cooper's inspirational speech drives many of these points home.

To reach World Team league stuff in well less than 1000 jumps or even 500 jumps, requires a formula that also includes:
- Healthy focus on RW jumping. 4-Ways. 20-Ways.
- Jumping with World Team Members from time to time.
- Plenty of good tunnel time!
- Bigway Camps. Perris is world renowned with one of the best bigway camp in the world.
- Persistence. You'll be cut from some bigways early on. Don't take it too hard. Keep working. You'll be accepted the next time. I wasn't good enough for 100-ways in May, but I was this September.
- Great coaching. (I had Jan Meyer, originally as interpretor but ended up becoming my personal bigway coach as well)
- Plenty of air time (tunnel and skydiving) as often as you can.
- A good eye on www.bigways.com. Initially, one won't qualify for most of these at first but catch the good "Camp" events like the Perris camps, typically in May and September every year. -- Camps such as Perris' that have a huge number of the upcoming 500-Way World Record organizers who will witness your flying. And attend the camp again even if you get declined from the 100-way. You'll eventually get a provisional invitation to World Record if you keep it up and try, try again, and then go beyond with the invitationals.
- And for those times you DO become uncurrent (bad summer weather, and still waiting on becoming good enough to go to bigway events), refresher RW and tunnel before going to a bigway camp, especially if you have moments of uncurrency between major bursts of skydiving like me.

[BillyVance 34]

Hiro Masuda, from Japan, was a sub 1000 jump wonder who got on the 400 way world record in Thailand, due to having a crap load of tunnel time. One camp at Perris a few years back prompted Kate Cooper to mention that "this guy is special, much tunnel time".

I don't know how much tunnel time Hiro's got now, but the last time I asked him, he was well over a day's worth.

I learned quite a few tricks from him when we (the deaf skydivers group) showed up at the Orlando tunnel while we were at Lake Wales for DWR 2005.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[mdrejhon 8]

Just wanted to clarify.

Some tunnelflyer private messaged me criticizing me for even merely mentioning that tunnel time can be a waste of time. The private message may have been targeted to the wrong person because of my clearly pro-tunnel message, but:

Maybe somebody mis-read it from my phrase "can feel like a waste of tunnel minutes at first, but this pays dividends later."

So let me clarify that fact:

The sad fact remains is that many tunnel newbies give up the wind tunnel after their first-ever 10 minutes. Although for many people it is "love at first sight", it is not true for every tunnel newbie. There are many cases where a person cannot learn enough from $200 of wind tunnel time, to feel it "worth it", and might feel reluctant to invest in it further.

So that why I strongly encourage first-time tunnel flyers that they need to SPEND for an HOUR of tunnel time to give the wind tunnel a HONEST try. So, if a newbie is reading this, worried about spending hundreds of tunnel, spend for a full hour -- you won't regret it! It's amazing how one has less regret for an hour of respected-skygod-instructor-coached tunnel time in your preferred discipline, than 10 minutes of a less-good non-skydiver-instructor-coached tunnel time in an unfamiliar discipline. It happens all too often, unfortunately.

Yes, there are bad skydiver tunnel instructors, and good non-skydiver tunnel instructors, but if you're a newbie and you're confused of what coach to get -- it's generally a guideline to get a good skydiver who happens to be a tunnel instructor -- i.e. I've been coached by Perris Fury as well as Team Evolution (Canada's #1 4-way team, who runs tunnel camps). Such people are, probably, the preferred choice for a first-time tunnel flyer that's jittery about parting with about $800 of money for an hour of tunnel time, unless many pro freeflyer friends recommend, say, a specific stunning non-skydiving tunnel instructor who's very good at coaching freefly. Or a particular discipline of choice. Regardless, what matters is you want to make sure you get very good referrals to get the right good tunnel instructor.

Another way to picture this, is that your first-ever 15 minutes in the tunnel, after being a long-time skydiver, may feel like you're learning all over again because it's a chamber rather than the sky. Don't be discouraged! Stay it through, and after the first 15 minutes, you're learning well beyond -- and become really a noticeably better skydiver in the sky.

Hereby lies my explanation of why, in certain cases, tunnel time "may" feel like a waste of time at first for an experienced skydiver who is new tunnel flyer, especially when the wrong coach is used. The message here is that, you gotta give the wind tunnel a honest try -- spend at least an hour, perhaps spread over two days to let your body rest. If you can't afford it, then half an hour is more likely to have high satisfaction ratings, especially with a good instructor/coach.

[wildfan75 1]

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Hereby lies my explanation of why, in certain cases, tunnel time "may" feel like a waste of time at first for an experienced skydiver who is new tunnel flyer...

My fiancee had 4500 skydives when he first "flew" into the tunnel. He did two hours in three days and couldn't believe how much he learned, and you could see how much faster and accurate of a free faller he was.

I had maybe 200 jumps when I did 20 minutes in the tunnel. I still kick my own ass for not getting more. I really wished I wouldn't have listed to everyone telling me that "You should only do 20-30 minutes your first time in the tunnel. Anymore is overload." Damn them!! I can't fathum how much I would have learned in an hour or two based on what I learned in those 20 minutes.

I think the tunnel to skydivers is like dangling meth in front of a crack addict. Its all very expensive!

[mdrejhon 8]

Sure - for some new tunnel flyers, 60 minutes can be overload, but buy it all at once and spread it over a time period, it's no problem!
Some people can handle more, while others can't. The important thing is to do warm up exercise and spread it out. Half an hour might be warranted if an hour is not possible, if you're, say, on vacation and can only be at the tunnel during a short time period -- and an hour would torture the body.

I did get extremely sore the next day on the first time I spent 1 hour in one day. But now I now can fly 2 hours in the tunnel in one day, if I had to because I got my "tunnel legs" now in a manner of speaking...

In an early 2008 visit, my approx 1.5 hours spread over a 12 hour time period, did not get me more sore than a regular 8-jump skydiving day, since I had opportunities to rest and eat some good food.

Once sufficiently coached and you got buddies to fly with that the tunnel now trusts you with, when purchased as 4-way opportunities ($200/hour instead of $800/hour), one can tunnelfly 4-ways at only $3 per minute -- one tenth the cost of skydiving in the sky! But I don't eliminate one-on-one opportunities: I did get 35 minutes of one-on-one, in three separate sessions, recently at Perris Skyventure during the Big Way/100-Way Camps -- and coaching cost included -- so that cost a pretty dime.

Many skydivers get addicted after 15 minutes. But for some, it's a reluctant experience especially if you're going through correctionary/familiarization phases like I did. (In retrospect, I see: mantis vs boxman, rig vs rigless, walls vs unwalled, denser air, the strict need to stay stable in center of tunnel, etc -- the fact that tunnel controllers like to blow it 'slow' on newbies before they trust you to fly faster tunnel air for safety reasons - and finally many 1000 jump wonders even need a tunnel familiarization phase.).

Thusly, not surprised at some of those skydivers who find their first 15 minutes less satisfying than the subsequent 45 minutes, in their first hour of tunnel time. (Many skydivers who are tunnel newbies, who buy 1 hour of tunnel time, experiences this effect). Thereupon lies some risk when someone buys only 15 minutes, they may not feel satisfied enough to buy more time...

Some feel the value even after the first 1 minute -- and you did -- congratulations! But many, myself included, needed more than 15 minutes to fall in love!

[danornan 64]

Having just gotten back from the POPS record attempt in Perris last week and reading through this thread, I agree with all that you have said. I would like to include another skill that has been hinted at but not exploited and that is to stay in your radial as much as possible and especially in the RED ZONE.

I was out in the thin air and unfortunately, watched far too many unnecessary collisions. None would have occurred if the radial lines were followed.

Dano

[mdrejhon 8]

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Having just gotten back from the POPS record attempt in Perris last week and reading through this thread, I agree with all that you have said. I would like to include another skill that has been hinted at but not exploited and that is to stay in your radial as much as possible and especially in the RED ZONE.

I was out in the thin air and unfortunately, watched far too many unnecessary collisions. None would have occurred if the radial lines were followed.

Bigway radial skills definitely is one of the things that cannot be easily learned in the tunnels. Witnessing an unstable 60-way building on the first jump of the first or second day, a formation that's wavy and distorting itself back-and-forth, not very flat in fallrate, and witnessing two or three red zone collisions elsewhere in the formation, you can be very distracted and freaked by that weed whacker threatening to whack you as you try to focus on some imaginary radial when nobody else seems to be on their radial; having a hard time staying on your radial. No tunnel training can prepare you for that...

For small ways, like practicing 4-ways in the tunnel, a small portion of radial skills can be obtained in the form of "look across the center". It does not quite scale up to such a complex big way "radial in the stadium" scenario, but this can help develop a portion of the "habit" of looking across the center (which would be the inner base of a bigway)...

Nontheless, tunnel training can help you recover faster from that red zone collision initiated by somebody else who wasn't on their radial.

Or for those times when you're making radial mistakes on the first day and trying not to be cut ... Quick evasive manovers, quick recovery... "Good recovery, but don't do that again -- be on your radial next jump!"

[LouDiamond 1]

Good post Mark, you hit on a lot of salient points that a lot of people either overlook or take for granted/dismiss. There is a lot that can be accomplished in a short amount of time in a tunnel when the time is used wisely.

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These training techniques are NOT usually taught by ordinary tunnel instructors

I think you might be surprised at how many DO(at least at SDA). I use every one of the techniques you mentioned (and a few others) when I train my Military guys in the tunnel and doing RW better is definitely not the goal. However, the skill sets learned are just as valuable for developing a better and safer flyer in the sky. Again, nice post.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[mdrejhon 8]

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I think you might be surprised at how many DO(at least at SDA).

In that case, they're good tunnel instructors, not ordinary ones, then.

A lot has changed since the early days of Skyventure Orlando for example -- so tunnel teaching methods for skydivers have improved, even among non-skydiving tunnel instructors. I think there were only two or three skyventures when I started skydiving less than 4 years ago, plus that Appalachian one and the Flyaway's. Now there must be well north of a dozen freefly-league / 4-way-capable tunnels, and one popping up just two hours away from me.

When you have the time, you might want to tell this thread about additional techniques relevant to bigways (or not), that weren't mentioned in my post!

***Again, nice post.You're welcome!

[mirage62 0]

Off the subject but red zone collisions are easily avoidable by everyone flying a good radial approach, stair stepped in – as always. But as a “larger guy” who spends most of his time in the middle of the formations I like to point out to my “light” friends that it’s a LOT easier to not have a collision when you are way on the outside. There’s just a LOT less opportunity to have a collision. The long swoop while fun, is not near as challenging as being a mid diver!

And so says the “fat man”

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

[tetra316 0]

Do you have any recommendations for a big way specific tunnel coach at Eloy? I'm going down for the camp in November and was considering getting some tunnel time in.

[mdrejhon 8]

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Do you have any recommendations for a big way specific tunnel coach at Eloy? I'm going down for the camp in November and was considering getting some tunnel time in.

Airspeed. At least I think I've heard Arizona Airspeed are familiar with these teaching techniques, also good for 4-ways and RW overall in general. But really, ask around (Jim Alkek, etc) before you go -- Skyventure AZ is one of the few wind tunnels right on/next to a dropzone.

[Wesly.VG 0]

Very nice topic! I'm trying to get in the next world team as well! At least thats my goal.. I have 340 Jumps and almost 2h of windtunnel, and doing more windtunnel each month. I have a 4-way team and starting jumping in a 16-way team.

Glad to hear there are other -500 jumps skydivers that are trying to be part of the world team as well!

I'm attending the P3 Big Way Camp and 100-Way in April/May, attending another Big Way Sequential event in June, then another Big Way Camp in July and hoping to get an invite for the Mens World Record in September and an invite for Project500!

If you try hard enough and do your best i know its possible! But lots of money does help.. Who's donating?

Believe nothing.
No matter where you read it or who has said it, not even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.

[mdrejhon 8]

You're not the only one! Perris P3 has a lot of sub-250 jumpers in the 50-way camp and lot of sub-500 jumpers in the 100-way camp.

Will this be your first P3 camp?

[Wesly.VG 0]

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You're not the only one! Perris P3 has a lot of sub-250 jumpers in the 50-way camp and lot of sub-500 jumpers in the 100-way camp.

Will this be your first P3 camp?

My first P3 camp, my first time in Perris, my first time in America, my first time on a jet air plane for traveling, my first time i will be in the plane when it lands..

Believe nothing.
No matter where you read it or who has said it, not even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.

[jsaxton 0]

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My first P3 camp, my first time in Perris, my first time in America, my first time on a jet air plane for traveling, my first time i will be in the plane when it lands..

Bring LOTS of beer

[billvon 2,394]

We'll arrange a few more "firsts" for you to have while you're here!

[artbel 0]

Well, where Wesley jumps, we are used to buy lots of beer everytime we hit a First.

You don't need a parachute to jump but YOU DO if want to do it again.

[Wesly.VG 0]

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Well, where Wesley jumps, we are used to buy lots of beer everytime we hit a First.

We invent things just to get free beer!

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We'll arrange a few more "firsts" for you to have while you're here!

I'm curious! What beer is there in Perris?

Believe nothing.
No matter where you read it or who has said it, not even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.

[mdrejhon 8]

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I'm curious! What beer is there in Perris?

There is an on-site bar at the dropzone called The Bombshelter, and they serve a reasonable variety of beers, as far as dropzone bars go. Not sure if there's belgian beer, but there's at least Heineken.

[Wesly.VG 0]

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I'm curious! What beer is there in Perris?

There is an on-site bar at the dropzone called The Bombshelter, and they serve a reasonable variety of beers, as far as dropzone bars go. Not sure if there's belgian beer, but there's at least Heineken.

If there is one beer belgians dislike.. It would be Heineken! Carlsberg is fine for me!

Believe nothing.
No matter where you read it or who has said it, not even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.

[rehmwa 2]

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If there is one beer belgians dislike.. It would be Heineken!

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Heineken - piss in a can - only more gross

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

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[kallend 1,623]

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If there is one beer belgians dislike.. It would be Heineken!

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Heineken - piss in a can - only more gross

Criticism of Heineken coming from the country that produces Bud Light is beyond belief!

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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[rehmwa 2]

Quote

Quote

Quote

If there is one beer belgians dislike.. It would be Heineken!

Quote

Heineken - piss in a can - only more gross

Criticism of Heineken coming from the country that produces Bud Light is beyond belief!

you drink Bud Light? now that's just nasty

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

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[billvon 2,394]

>What beer is there in Perris?

They have Fat Tire and Pyramid Hefe on tap at the Bomb Shelter. Beyond that, I try to keep some interesting beer in the cooler by the school.

And now that there's an IGA next to Perris, and a BevMo one exit down the 215, there's an unlimited supply of almost any sort of beer you want.