Squeak 17 #1 February 13, 2003 Is ther any real reason to NOT put reverse risers in a Javelin??? A friend is going to loan me her 170 until my 150 get here and we are thinking of just putting her risers on my container, so as not to muck up her slinks and that way she can still jumps your chute when need be. SO are there any saftey problems with this idea???You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 0 #2 February 13, 2003 Do a search on integrity risers or reverse risers. You can find much debate, and facts about integrity risers. Read the last line. Here's a post that I stole from Here A few highlights: "In October 2001, the Javelin harness/container was retested in accordance with AS-8015B and is approved under TSO C-23d for: a maximum operating weight of 300 lbs and a maximum operating speed of 170 knots (198 mph or 330 kph)" The instructions for velcro-less toggles show leaving the excess steering line flapping in the breeze. "Cock the Kill Line Pilot Chute before placing the canopy in the main bag!" "SUN PATH HIGHLY RECOMMENDS THE "PRO PACK" FOR ALL RAM-AIR RESERVES PACKED INTO THE JAVELIN HARNESS/CONTAINER SYSTEM." "Suggested loop length for cypres [loop] closing after setting & stretching to be 2 1/8" " 5 pages covering the 3-ring operation and maintenance. "Sun Path does not recommend the use of "Reverse Risers" on Javelin Harness and Containers" ]My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Squeak 17 #3 February 13, 2003 yeah I'm aware of what Sunpath RECOMENDS that's why I posted the question.Is there any safety reason for NOt doing this. Sunpath only make a recomendation, they do not elaborate on why, it could be as simple as them not wanting to use them to minimise options on their rigs. You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RichM 0 #4 February 13, 2003 Reverse risers are less efficient on any rig. All explained by Relative Workshop hereRich M Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grosfion 0 #5 February 13, 2003 I used Atom risers (reverse) on a Javelin and the other way round. Never had any problems. If you want to do a couple jumps with it I don't see any safety issues... You will most probably survive blues Marcus Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #6 February 13, 2003 Quote"In October 2001, the Javelin harness/container was retested in accordance with AS-8015B and is approved under TSO C-23d for: a maximum operating weight of 300 lbs and a maximum operating speed of 170 knots (198 mph or 330 kph)" A side note, this applies to S/N's 22,900 and higher, I checked. Reverse risers, incorrectly manufactured mini risers, and mini risers w/o the re-inforcement tape, throw them away. Hook Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkySlut 0 #7 February 13, 2003 Read those articles from RW and Sunpath and decide for yourself. Personally, I wouldnt use reverse risers for the reason that RWS states but a good friend of mine that has about 5,000 jumps uses reverse risers on his javelin and regular risers on his mirage....but I think that he is just too lazy to get regular risers for his javelin. He has probably done a couple thousand jumps with reverse risers on his javelin. I guess that its a question of risk management. RWS also recommends the standard size rings over the minirings...i jump minirings. Recommendation:get as informed as you can and you make the decision. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ernokaikkonen 0 #8 February 13, 2003 QuoteReverse risers, incorrectly manufactured mini risers, and mini risers w/o the re-inforcement tape, throw them away. Pretty harsh on everyone who's jumping Parachutes de France-gear... Squeak: One thing comes to mind about swapping the risers; the risers' length. Make sure the risers are more or less the same length. Too short risers will bring the slinks/rapide links on the sides of the reserve, and that just doesn't feel right... Like always, have a local rigger look at your rigs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HeatherB 0 #9 February 13, 2003 They're definitely not recommended on a Wings either. For reasons that have already been pointed out in this thread. Would anyone care to defend reversed risers by explaining how they are any BETTER than non-reversed? Why do you want them? (and please please do not say aesthetics. Some things in this sport need to not be about aesthetics.) I'm looking for a sound defense here. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #10 February 13, 2003 QuoteWould anyone care to defend reversed risers by explaining how they are any BETTER than non-reversed? Why do you want them? (and please please do not say aesthetics. Some things in this sport need to not be about aesthetics.) I'm looking for a sound defense here. IMO they are not better, but they used to be. Reversed risers were a band-aid used to fix the problem of mini risers breaking from the weakening produced by shoving a gromett through the type 17 webbing. Then some really smart person figured out how to reinforce the type 17 where the gromett is placed.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohanW 0 #11 February 13, 2003 (Playing devil's advocate here, I don't have reversed risers myself) You don't have to poke holes in your risers. Your rings are also somewhat protected, but how being protected by riser webbing is an advantage is beyond me.Johan. I am. I think. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkydiveMonkey 0 #12 February 13, 2003 Quote Would anyone care to defend reversed risers by explaining how they are any BETTER Most BASE jumpers seem to use em.____________________ Say no to subliminal messages Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 0 #13 February 14, 2003 QuoteMost BASE jumpers seem to use em. Lots do use integrity risers.....Big phat type8 Risers And the last time I checked, Cutting away a spinning mal was a bad choice on a BASE rig. Not applicable to this threadMy grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkydiveMonkey 0 #14 February 14, 2003 But if 90% + are using them, it's for a good reason. I'm no BASE jumper, but my guess is they can withstand larger shocks.____________________ Say no to subliminal messages Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #15 February 14, 2003 and the cutaway handle is very difficult to get to on BASE rigs. Some base rigs don't have 3-ring releases at all. Tom can answer this better than I , but 3 rings in BASE are used because it is an easy way to remove and switch canopies, or cutaway after landing, or if you land in water and are having problems. They aren't used for cutting away high "G" malfunctions. Completely different application. I haven't seen riser inserts in BASE either. Apples and oranges. Hook Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 0 #16 February 14, 2003 90%??? Interesting. Both will with stand the shock. One of my rigs has em. One doesn't. Non-reinforced type 17 risers were the risers that had strenth issues. What exacerbated that was the use of thin RW7 rings. RW8 or the equivelent is used now. Search some BASE sites You many find more standard risers than you think. Also, with that same mindset. WELL Over 90% of skydivers use Standard Risers. (either type 8 or type 17). Riser breakage is extremely uncommon. RichM was kind enough to look This up for us. To answer the originator of this thread, Reverse risers have been one part of a Hard cutaway situation in Numerous occasions. (not all of them so no need to flame that sentence.... unless you just feel like it) They work... and they don't work. I can't possibly recommend them with all the data available. My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
r2hubert 0 #17 February 14, 2003 Be careful I have always heard that risers came with a container. Check carefully your friends risers are compatible with your container, reverse or not. -- Renaud SMA #9 "Mind is like parachute. It only functions when it's open." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Squeak 17 #18 February 14, 2003 Hi guys, Thanks for all the input. But I wasn't after a debate on virtues and vices of reverse risers. I have read the pros and cons of both previously. I was (still am) only interested in finding out if there is a problem with PDF risers(reverse) being used on my Javelin for a few weeks until my 150 arrives. From one of the post prevoius someone stated that they have reverse risers on one of their Javs. Are they PDF or will PDF risers be OK on my Jav for awhile? You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grosfion 0 #19 February 14, 2003 Quote Hi guys, From one of the post prevoius someone stated that they have reverse risers on one of their Javs. Are they PDF or will PDF risers be OK on my Jav for awhile? yep! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 0 #20 February 14, 2003 Check your Private Messages Edit: SpellingMy grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ernokaikkonen 0 #21 February 14, 2003 >Are they PDF or will PDF risers be OK on my Jav for awhile? Quite likely yes, but please check with a local rigger who can actually take a look at the risers and rigs in question. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
aeneas 0 #22 February 14, 2003 **Is ther any real reason to NOT put reverse risers in a Javelin??? ** Yes, I think there is. The risers are made for a PDF rig ! The D-ring (I think it's called this way) on a PDF rig is attached higher than de D ring on a javelin. This would make it more difficult or impossible to cut away with a malfunction which doesn't put you up straight (on the javelin with reverse pdf risers). Because of the lower D-ring, the risers get ''stuck'' in this situation. You can test this on the ground. Put the reverse risers on the javelin. Let somebody else pull the risers backwards with some force and try to release. So, don't use the PDF reverse risers on any other rig then a PDF rig ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 0 #23 February 14, 2003 Well our national CREW rotation teams uses javs with reversed (PdF) risers. Since they're pretty knowledgable and very picky about their gear, I'd believe it's an improvement rather than not. I've asked them why, can't really remember the answer tho, think it was for breaking strength (because of the grommet). ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 0 #24 February 14, 2003 Quote Pretty harsh on everyone who's jumping Parachutes de France-gear... Like me.... I've got 2 mains now, the spare one is also on reversed risers (but these are non PdF), no probs so far. Quote Squeak: One thing comes to mind about swapping the risers; the risers' length. Make sure the risers are more or less the same length. Too short risers will bring the slinks/rapide links on the sides of the reserve, and that just doesn't feel right... Hmmm why not? I've swapped my standard-length risers (which on an Atom rig are kinda short anyway) for short PdF reversed risers. The links used to just make the packtray. Now the slinks are next to my reserve. So what? edited to say: Of course I ran all of this by other jumpers and my rigger, who okayed it. ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ernokaikkonen 0 #25 February 14, 2003 > Now the slinks are next to my reserve. So what? I don't know.... Like I said, it just doesn't feel right... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
