Trying to stay with the little skydiver

[vtskydivescott 0]

I am currently jumping at a DZ where the average jumper is around 150 - 180lbs (Some less some more) and I weigh about 235lbs without gear. Everyone has advise but this comes from the 150lbs guys. I just bought a new RW suit from Bev Suits that is pollycotton with cordura booties with the afterburners on them as well to help with fall rate. My average fall rate is around 123mph. I have tried flattening out, cupping to catch air, etc, etc, etc but try cupping air and also making turns and 360's on a formation dive, not very easy. Is it just me or should the smaller guy learn to fly to us bigger guys or wear weights. Why fight gravity, go with it. Any thoughts. Let me know! Thanks!!! Stay safe and Blue Skies!

[hallschuch 0]

The smaller guys can only wear so much weight...didn't see you mention anything about taking off your weigt? Might want to consider slimming down if you want to do great 360s and fly with others at the same time.

[AllisonH 0]

I think I had about 30 jumps when someone else lent me weights and told me to get used to wearing them (I'm 110 lbs). I fought with it for a while, and finally ended up in a place where I know that I CAN stay with almost anyone without wearing weights, but it's just so much easier to wear them. Just like you're at the slow edge of your range and finding it difficult to fly well, without weights I sometimes end up at the fast edge of my range. It doesn't take a lot of lead to make a big difference. I've found it very comfortable to wear around 6-8 pounds, so that's what I do on almost every jump, though I'm certainly willing to adjust it as needed. With your large jumpsuit and the smaller guys wearing a little lead, you shouldn't find it too difficult to meet in the middle fall-rate wise. 123 isn't that fast.

Edit to add: the poster above me makes an excellent point. If someone tried to put 20-25 pounds of lead on me (which I know some people wear fairly regularly) I'd rather stay on the ground. That's 20% of my body weight and I don't want to increase my wingloading that much and kill my knees on every landing. There are limits to what they can do, and if you lost 10-20 pounds it would probably make things much easier for you.

[MajorDad 0]

We have a number of big guys at our drop zone. One of my friends weighed around 270 or so when he started and I had to strap on 20 lbs of weight when I was coaching him (and I normally dont wear weight belts).

His skills improved and he also experimented with jumps suits and falls at around 115 mph now.

One thing that may help is swoop cords for your jumps suit. It is a $5 option on Tony Suits but I dont see if it as an option on Bev Suits Order Sheet. Pretty simple and I find it great when I am jumping with teeny, tiny people or am on a jump where I know I want more range (ie late docker on a larger formation).

And of course going up with a coach or senior jumper may help with developing skills to slow down your fall rate (or identify things you could do differently).

235 lbs is hardly an unusual weight for skydivers. Lots of them out there.

Blue ones,

Major Dad
CSPA D-579

[elightle 8]

It's everybody's job to maintain the fall rate. Little skydivers should wear some weight but shouldn't have to strap on more than they feel good about. I wore 26 on a few 4-way dives and I'll never do it again. Larger skydivers should get looser suits with no nylon and swoop cords for those bigger formations. Everybody should be able to maintain fall rates anywhere from 115 to 120 or so. If not, they should get some coaching/tunnel time and buy the appropriate gear. "Dress for success" as Dan B.C. says.

Blue Skies!
Ed

[BikerBabe 0]

get thee to a tunnel!

hehe, seriously, some time in the tunnel and learning to fly your body (don't just work on fall rate, work on everything) will truly help immensely. The tunnel does wonders helping you understand what changes to body position will do in the the air.

even just 15 or 30 minutes with a good coach will really help.

Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!

[UDSkyJunkie 0]

The polycotton and booties will help, hopefully your suit has a little "wing" as well.

Flattening out and "cupping" may slow you down a bit but they will also reduce your ability to fly correctly. If it's an option definately get some tunnel time... more airtime always helps, and many people find they fall a bit slower in the "mantis" position vs. boxman.

In the end, little guys need weights. I'm 135 and had to wear 18 lbs of weight to keep a comfortable pace with my 235 lb teammate. Another 170ish lb teammate wore about 10 lbs as well... but the vast majority of people above 160 or so will refuse to even consider wearing weights outside the team environment.

The advice to lose weight yourself may sound harsh but is accurate... if you're carrying around 30 lbs of "natural arch" skydiving will be harder for you no matter what. Losing a bit will help your fall rate, make your turns faster and better, reduce the odds of injury on a bumpy landing, and reduce wear and tear on your equipment (my 235-lb teammate broke lines on at least 4 different canopies on at least 6 separate occasions).

"Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

[GQ_jumper 4]

I used to weigh 215 without gear, and believe me dropping down into the 180's helped me immensely. I was still able to fly with anyone at 215 but I had to work a lot harder and fall rate was always a concern.

Like others have said though fallrate is everyones responsibility, not just the heavy guys. The little ones have a tendency to think that their natural fall rate should just be what everyone has to deal with, if they don't want to find a fallrate that works for everyone while youare trying to lose weight and learn to fly better than find some new jumping buddies that will work to help you.

History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower

[vskydiver 0]

I weight around 105 lbs., sans gear, and I jump just fine with guys in your weigh range. Some of them even bigger. Sometimes I wear a few pounds of weights and sometimes I don't. Depends on the dive and what we are doing. Those big guys I jump with realize that they are heavy and they have modified their suits and gear and learned how to fly to meet the fall rate that is expected of the dive. Just as I have modified my suits and gear and have learned how to meet the fall rate that is expected of the dive. I don't expect you to fall out of the dive any more than you should expect me to float out of it. We all have our personal battles in the air. We all have to learn to overcome them and fly the dive. Don't make your shortcomings someone else's battle on top of their own. That just sucks for everyone.

[elightle 8]

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...I don't expect you to fall out of the dive any more than you should expect me to float out of it...

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Well said, vsskydiver. A lot of factors affect a jumper's fall rate, including body build and age. I weigh 134 and I'm short, but I have fairly broad shoulders and always have to wear lead. Like vskydiver says, do what you have to do to "fly the dive".

[kallend 1,621]

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I am currently jumping at a DZ where the average jumper is around 150 - 180lbs (Some less some more) and I weigh about 235lbs without gear. Everyone has advise but this comes from the 150lbs guys. I just bought a new RW suit from Bev Suits that is pollycotton with cordura booties with the afterburners on them as well to help with fall rate. My average fall rate is around 123mph. I have tried flattening out, cupping to catch air, etc, etc, etc but try cupping air and also making turns and 360's on a formation dive, not very easy. Is it just me or should the smaller guy learn to fly to us bigger guys or wear weights. Why fight gravity, go with it. Any thoughts. Let me know! Thanks!!! Stay safe and Blue Skies!

Who is going to be more comfortable, someone wearing a tight nylon suit and 15 pounds of lead, or someone wearing a loose cotton suit and no lead.

Try wearing 15% to 20% of your body weight in lead while wearing a tight nylon suit and dirt diving for a while in the sun before griping about the people who regularly have to do it.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rehmwa 2]

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Try wearing 15% to 20% of your body weight in lead while wearing a tight nylon suit and dirt diving for a while in the sun before griping about the people who regularly have to do it.

before setting the OP in his place, do you think 123 mph is not an unreasonable fall rate to target?

(IMO - the poster and the lightweights at his DZ need to realize that 118-123 mph should be the MIDDLE of their fallrate range, not the extreme low or high for the individuals)

and "griping" either way isn't really productive in getting good dives together

unless on a dedicated team, the only thing constant in any diver having fast or slow fall rate issues, is that they can only change...their own skill sets.

worry about what the other guy can do to accommodate them is a waste of energy

I like to see everyone improve both ends of their range and I've coached both lightweights and heavyweights (at their requests) in that regards. (and I'm always looking for more for my own education too.)

lightweights should learn a bit about getting narrow and not just arching hard

heavyweights can learn a lot about getting long and flat and completely avoiding the old "beach ball" crap

of course, the right suits and equipment.etc etc

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[MajorDad 0]

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(IMO - the poster and the lightweights at his DZ need to realize that 118-123 mph should be the MIDDLE of their fallrate range, not the extreme low or high for the individuals)

Too true. In fact 125 mph is what I like for a nice FS Base Fall rate. Makes it easy for the late divers to get in without slamming on the brakes.

It's annoying when the base is falling slow and people are below it for that reason.

Major Dad
CSPA D-579

[kallend 1,621]

The fact remains that dressing to slow down is a whole lot more comfortable than dressing to speed up.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rehmwa 2]

seems women and old people are really hung up on comfort

(that should stir it up a bit)

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[kallend 1,621]

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seems women and old people are really hung up on comfort

(that should stir it up a bit)

Wisdom is not usually to be found among adolescent males.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[AllisonH 0]

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seems women and old people are really hung up on comfort

(that should stir it up a bit)

Maybe women and old people don't consider 150-180 pounds to be "little" either...

[rehmwa 2]

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seems women and old people are really hung up on comfort

(that should stir it up a bit)

Wisdom is not usually to be found among adolescent males.

You really are just nostalgic about the old balloon suits and 90 mph fallrates?

(I remember one of Briggsy brothers - from Vinton Skydivers - showing up at my old DZ, this was late '80s, with one of those. One of our jumpers put it on - we stuffed a bean bag chair in there with him - and then used him as an accuracy tuffet. )

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

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Maybe women and old people don't consider 150-180 pounds to be "little" either...

I've seen some bigger people work their ass off trying to slow down. Their 'natural' arch kind of cancels out most any technique they are using to slow down.

Doesn't look too comfortable to me.

I have to return to work. But what we need is obviously some kind of hard shell 'scoops' that we can surgically add to fast fallers so everyone can freefall in smoking jackets. That should fix things. Or, we can install fairings on the little ones. Either way. It's not fair of me to comment, I fall pretty much in the middle and have good range so I don't 'feel their pain'

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[pr0ject42 0]

I used to have to strap on 16 lbs of lead on one team that I trained with, now after becoming fat, I get to be the fast faller on the team and here is my take on it.

Yeah, lugging weight around sucked. What sucks worse is when you have to carry that weight around all day and all night because it is sub-dermal.

Yes, I understand bruising of the hips, the extra wingloading (which I actually liked) and just having to haul lead around is a pain in the butt, but if you want to have successful jumps everybody has to work together.

The bigger people can have baggier suits, big ass booties and fly a little spread out, but if they are dropping out just trying to move, everyone on that jump with them is throwing their money away.

There is no "us against them" when it comes to fall rate, if "we" want to jump together, we make the changes required to have a successful jump and last time I checked, besides the suit alterations, big people can't cut off weight before a jump, however those graced with a slim figure can slap on some lead to keep everyone together.

[elightle 8]

There's no argument in my mind. You match the fall rate. If I'm jumping with 235 pounders, I wear lead. If I'm doing the first jump on a 100-way and I'm on the outside, I don't wear any until I see what the fall rate is. Kate Cooper said something to this effect: If you float up when you stick out your booties to move forward, you need lead. It doesn't matter if it's a 4-way or a 400-way.

Let's talk about something else now...

[vtskydivescott 0]

Thanks for all the good advise and comments. Let me start by saying that I am working my butt off trying to loose some weight. I have lost 18lbs so far and want to shoot for another 20lbs. I am somewhat tall so I don't have any drive to get under 205lbs. Currently my fall rate is between 120 - 123mph which I thought was around the norm. If this is true then who's responsibility does it become? Should I be trying to slow down even more or should the smaller skydiver speed up. What is considered a good fall rate. Should that change from DZ to DZ?

Stay safe and Blue Skies!!

[rehmwa 2]

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then who's responsibility does it become

I think we've beaten this subject to death.

your range is normal, but it doesn't matter if the others can't/won't help accommodate - so discussions about "responsibility" for it is pointless. Don't be that guy. Ask them once to consider wearing weight (or more weight) and if they gripe about it, don't ask again and either learn to fall slower, or just don't jump with those particular people.

I never hurts to learn to expand your fall rate range in both directions. No matter what. Do a search on fall rate techniques. Lots of threads on this in the forum. Take a tunnel camp and get coaching on ways to control fall rate without sacrificing manuverability (fast fallers tend break their arch/hips to cup air usually LONG before other methods can be used - get long, stay in mantis, use all your body - if you are tall, you should be able to get a GREAT fall rate range with the right techniques). there are suit features that help slow you down but let you continue to fly, and there are suit features that slow you down but toss you around - find the ones that work for you.

Slow fallers tend to arch too hard (and incorrectly) and forget to get narrow - see? it applies to both ends of the spectrum.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[mmclaughlin84 0]

We have had times when we are trying to do an 8way and have 6 mid range fallers, 1 floater and one sinker. The floater puts on 8 lb, thats not a problem, he understands thats what he has to do to keep up with the majority of the people he jumps with. If he works on his flying he may get to the point where he can do with less weight/no weight. For the sinker, you have 7 people who all have to find weight to compensate for 1 person.

I hope you don't come out with the line "Why fight gravity, go with it" as someone (or a large group) trying to accommodate you and only you, isn't going to like the argument "I fall fast, learn to live with it." Their reply will be, "We ALL fall slower than you, why can't you learn to live with us?"

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big people can't cut off weight before a jump, however those graced with a slim figure can slap on some lead to keep everyone together.

It depends on your body type, if your just a big guy with a big frame, maybe it's not an option, but if you are simply overweight with it all at the waist, losing some pounds would be a good idea. It'll make a big difference to yourself, never mind others. It's good you've already lost some, even if people still have to put on lead to jump with you now, it'll make a big difference for them to see your meeting them half way.

For the record, i used to be a very floaty 145lb and had to wear weight to keep up with even mid range jumpers. I went to the gym and put on 15-20lb. Not entirely, but in part for skydiving reasons. Now I only wear weight when i jump with very big guys. If me and others are prepared to do that to conform to the norm, to make it easier for both me and everyone i jump with, then is it too much to expect that from the other end of the spectrum.

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Your range is normal

What is normal? Depends who your jumping with. Either you change your fall rate or you change who you jump with, depends how much you like them

[UKFSChick 0]

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now after becoming fat, I get to be the fast faller on the team

There *may* be another reason for the faster-faller situation...call me crazy...fat is a relative concept ;)

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big people can't cut off weight before a jump, however those graced with a slim figure can slap on some lead to keep everyone together.

What r you trying to say??? Do you want to pass the rock, does is the 22 average (since you canned me, ahem ;-) offer some consolation for the perma-de-arch of the past 2 years?

(PS - Get those webbed gloves, no-one will laugh at you. I promise. No, really. Go on.)