skyleague 0 #26 November 5, 2006 Hello FS Competition Lovers: Kurt Gaebel here. The NSL was mentioned several times. Please allow me to add bits of information. First of all, it is very encouraging to see how productive and friendly this discussion has been. It makes me feel comfortable enough to join. I have met with USPA representatives several times, officially and unofficially, with and without Larry Hill, beginning in 2001 when Alan Metni joined to help at a meeting in Eloy. I have always offered cooperation to advance the sport together. There was some success when we synchronized the dive pools between Intermediate and AA Class, plus Collgiates and A Class. It did not materialize in other significant moves. Unfortunately. The league directors and myself understand very well the difference between the situation at the USPA Nationals and the league structure. We know that there are several teams that just want to go to that one event and have fun. However, the situation has never been different at the NSL Championship/SkyQuest. There have always been "guest teams", which were very welcome and treated as well as all other teams, including NSL News coverage. Some "guest teams" had already competed at league events of the regular season and just did not qualify according to the eligibility rules for NSL medals. Other guest teams just came to compete at this one event. The only difference is the fact that the teams that participate throughout the whole NSL season can win NSL medals, the trophies and other prizes. We try to reward the busier teams for their efforts. Other participating teams just compete at the NSL Championship/SkyQuest and have the same situation as they have at the USPA Nationals. There is even nothing in the way to recognize the eligible winner of the NSL Championship as the NSL Champion (with all the benefits) and the overall winner as the national team. Of course, there is always the option to require the future national team to go through the whole season, which has many additional benefits. It would take too much space to explain all that. I just want to make sure that everybody knows: the NSL door has always been open for teams that are not officially eligible for medals, awards and prizes. Last not least, most of the teams at the USPA Nationals have already been competing in the regions anyway. The benefits of real competition practice is nothing new any longer, and all the teams in the USPA medal positions are obviously much aware of that. I don't think you would have to twist too many arms to make teams follow any additional qualification rules, similar to what the NSL has been doing. However, it is not necessary at the moment, it would work either way. Teams can use the regional league meets to practice or not, and then they can compete at the NSL Championship/SkyQuest - for medals, trophies and prizes - or just for fun. Hope to see many more teams in the future :-) Cheers, Kurt By the way: the NSL News and NSL-TV would be glad to cover the event in Ottawa next year. I hope we will be invited. I would also be glad to provide any input for the even management to make it a great 4-way and 8-way event. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
burble 0 #27 November 6, 2006 well...as good or bad as it may have been...this was the most un"nationals"like nationals that i'd ever participated in (at least to me). back at perris the theme seemed to be the judges, rather than the teams (at least from the awards ceremony thats what i got). this year it was about getting the competitors out of the way as fast as possible. imagine the inconvenience to the dz of having us all there. too bad they couldn't have gotten a c-130 to give us all one pass. at least the next nationals won't be at eloy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GQ_jumper 4 #28 November 6, 2006 I have met with USPA representatives several times, officially and unofficially, with and without Larry Hill, beginning in 2001 when Alan Metni joined to help at a meeting in Eloy.Quote Speaking of finding a person to put in charge of competitions.......hmmm, maybe the person I'm replying to or a certain person who is known for putting legal smarts to work in competitionHistory does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #29 November 6, 2006 I'd vote for Kurt if he ran for USPA director. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jmpwme 0 #30 November 6, 2006 Maybe one of the more math-inclined folks out there can do the math, but what would happen if you ran the Artistice Events concurrently with 4-way and made 4-way a 3 day event instead of a 2 day event (weather permitting). Would this permit all events to end on the same day thereby solving the "attendance" at awards issue? Frankly, I'd be happy doing days of 4,3,3 or 4,4,2 rather than 7/3. I realize that this plan would require 4-way jumpers to all stay on extra day. This may not be popular. Just thought I'd float the idea, although I suspect it has already been considered at some point. S. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #31 November 6, 2006 QuoteMaybe one of the more math-inclined folks out there can do the math, but what would happen if you ran the Artistice Events concurrently with 4-way well, the Artistic events are subjectively scored anyway, they could just bypass the jumps themselves and score them on how the judges "feel" about the competitors that would save time, gas and schedule insert requisite smiley here - here - and here - ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites harryskydives 0 #32 November 9, 2006 If you drag an event out an extra day, then a jump off or weather adds even more days.. some teams would be leaving before they finished.. and less people doing 8 -10 or 16 way... Don't run out of altitude and experience at the same time... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Skydivesg 6 #33 November 10, 2006 I'd vote for you Kurt!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites MakeItHappen 15 #34 November 11, 2006 QuoteEveryone who attended this year's Nationals is aware of how poorly it was run. Not too surprisingly, the USPA prefers not to present discussion of this in a public forum. I submitted the following for the Letters section, and the USPA politely declined to publish it. My first USPA Nationals as an intermediate jumper years ago was a life-changing experience, and one of the top few highlights was standing on the podium with my team before hundreds of peers to receive our medals for all the hard work we'd done over the year and at the meet. At that moment, I knew I'd always come back. My first Nationals also had me accepting the first place Championship award in the 4-way and 8-way Intermediate classes. Of course, that was many moons ago and the podium thing wasn't around then. Our 4-way team was presented the award as soon as possible, in the darkness of a dz, standing at the same level as everyone else, but that didn't bother us at all. The crowd cheered. That was what we wanted to hear. I think the 8-way award was during the day, but I can't really remember. QuoteThis year's competitors had no such moment to take home with them. This year's meet management decided that award ceremonies after 4-way and 8-way were unimportant, and that anyone who wanted to receive the medals they'd earned had to spend an entire week's vacation waiting around for the closing ceremonies. This is an outrageous travesty, and the worst, though only one, of many unnecessary, poor decisions made by this year's organizers. I agree with that the awards should be awarded as soon as possible. Expecting teams to hang around for 4 more days was a bit unrealistic. As far as I know, that schedule of awarding medals is up to the host, not USPA. Also I have to call you to the carpet about your complaint. You are basically whining about being deprived of your personal moment of glory. IOW, because you did not have your 'moment on the podium with adoring fans cheering you on' you say the Nationals were run poorly. I can actually identify with that at this year's nationals. For the past two years at Perris, the BOD was introduced on stage and we had that moment of glory of people clapping for us. This year, no such thing happened. The present BOD members were also not called upon to hang awards. I don't know why, don't really care now either. But I will tell you that, that night I was wondering about it. Then after a day or so of thinking about it, I realized I was just disappointed that I didn't have my moment of glory. But then I am not on the BOD for my moment of glory. I'm on it because I can help USPA members. You know, teams are not really at Nationals for that moment of glory-up on some podium - accepting an award, they are there for the excellence they can achieve as competitors. So I call you to the carpet and say that competitors are not in it for the *glory*, but are in it for the personal satisfaction they get from competing. Sure the *glory* makes it extra nice, but if it wasn't there, Nationals would still go on. QuoteNext on the list was the decision to put out four 4-way teams per pass instead of two. The meet director told us this was necessary in order to complete the meet on time. I fail to understand how this can be, since every Nationals since the hurricane-plagued 1999 meet has completed 4-way on time, including the last meet in Arizona, with the same number of planes, doing two teams per pass. This is especially curious given that this year's meet had by far the fewest 4-way teams in recent history. Due to this decision, the first and fourth teams of each load had poor spots for almost every round, saddling them with an unfair distraction that created an uneven playing field. Furthermore, it was a serious safety issue. If it really was that much of a problem, then you need to bring it up to the Meet Director in real time. Don't bitch about it after the fact. I've jumped at SDA enough to know they (Bryan, Pat, Shawn, Larry, etc) will adjust to conditions. QuoteNext came the question of money, and what the competitors got for what they paid. We don't need the spectacular opening ceremonies that Perris put on, or the frequent, sumptuous banquets provided at Perris and Lake Wales, but how do you justify charging a full hundred dollars more per person than at the prior meets, without providing any benefits other than a beer truck and a closing banquet which the meet management knew full well would be missing many of the 4-way jumpers? Betsy already answered this. QuoteOn the up side, the speed with which the judges posted scores during 4-way was truly impressive. Hats off to the judges' accomplishment, and thanks as always, guys, for your under-appreciated, long, hard hours at the buttons. Thank you on behalf of the judges, BTW, I was NOT a judge at Nats. The judges are the most under-appreciated group of people at Nationals. Good thing that all those OmniSkore systems worked like clockwork! QuoteIn the end, though, Nationals is about recognizing the hard work and performance of the people who pay for it all. You remind me of that guy that hired the reigning hot shot jumpers in FL to take him to a Medal at Nats about 15 years ago. Maybe if you greased the pot with a few thousand dollars you can have everything your way. .. Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ltdiver 3 #35 November 11, 2006 QuoteNext on the list was the decision to put out four 4-way teams per pass instead of two.*** ***If it really was that much of a problem, then you need to bring it up to the Meet Director in real time. Don't bitch about it after the fact. Jan, On almost -every- round (save the last one) my team landed out. On Round 9--WAY out. We went to the Meet Director more than once during the meet to request an adjustment to 2 out on a pass, or at least better spots for the 4th team out. We were denied this each time. It was REAL TIME and they would not adjust. ltdiver Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airgord 1 #36 November 11, 2006 Sorry that happened to your kids LT. Divewerkz had a contingency plan that we put in place earlier this year; last out, break off @ 4k, everyone track back to the dz, camera pull IMMEDIATELY at breakoff. One of my teammates landed by McGowans house and I think a couple of times two of my teamies landed in the south landing area. We almost always landed back, I always did (had to make the dubbing line). My point is that teams stop their dive plan after 35 seconds, the jump is not over until you are back in the team room bragging about how well the day went, sure, every team has a plan for cutaways etc, but no one has a breakoff plan outside of 180 and track, what if you are way out in east BF (last out) and at least two are tracking away from the far off dz? If everyone tracks back(to the dz) with a well understood plan no one is in any danger and everyone makes it back close enough to catch the dz pickup and the high fives in the packers area. The trick is, everyone has to thoroughly understand the plan. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ltdiver 3 #37 November 11, 2006 QuoteDivewerkz had a contingency plan that we put in place earlier this year; last out, break off @ 4k, everyone track back to the dz, Tracking back -down- line of flight may only work if the group out before you isn't pulling higher than you are. Frequently (at Perris) the larger group out before our team is flying larger, more docile canopies. Not the greatest plan to be tracking into -their- wake. ltdiver Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites harryskydives 0 #38 November 12, 2006 Hey Gordo & LT: I am still happy about getting to see all you guys. It quit raining here for a few hours today... Any way my team was 3rd out each time. I had the choise of the main or alternate field. I usuall picked the alternate field based on the winds, but the main had less traffic. An Air Force team was last out each time, they uausally landed their big canopies at the alternate field. I do not know if they made it each time. But if they were 3rd and we were last, we would have been flying back through their slow parachutes.. good times c ya Xmas Don't run out of altitude and experience at the same time... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nitrox100 0 #39 November 12, 2006 QuoteJan, On almost -every- round (save the last one) my team landed out. On Round 9--WAY out. We went to the Meet Director more than once during the meet to request an adjustment to 2 out on a pass, or at least better spots for the 4th team out. We were denied this each time. It was REAL TIME and they would not adjust. ltdiver We too brought it up with the meet director and were shut down. Then when they changed jump run on round 7 so the camera would not have sun glare the spot became so bad it was a joke. I remember the sign at the loading area that said something like: Ground speed 105. There will be NO second pass. DON'T EVEN THINK ABOUT ASKING FOR ONE. Every other Nationals I was at has had 4 teams per plane and 2 passes or 3 teams per plane and 1 pass. The last Nationals at Eloy had 3 teams/1 pass and that even became long when it was a difficult to set-up launch. Perris has a pretty small landing area and last year our entire team landed on the grass for all 10 rounds. They knew how to do it right. Eloy is a great DZ but I agree with the original poster. The way they ran this Nationals was a disappointment. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GQ_jumper 4 #40 November 12, 2006 It's been a while since I read the SCM but doesn't it state that teams are authorized a second pass if they feel it is in the best interest of safety?History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bob.dino 0 #41 November 12, 2006 QuoteYou remind me of that guy that hired the reigning hot shot jumpers in FL to take him to a Medal at Nats about 15 years ago. Maybe if you greased the pot with a few thousand dollars you can have everything your way. Jan, I understood your point of view up to this statement. In my opinion it's a cheap shot that detracts from the points raised earlier in your post. dave. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lauras 0 #42 November 13, 2006 QuoteYou are basically whining about being deprived of your personal moment of glory. IOW, because you did not have your 'moment on the podium with adoring fans cheering you on' you say the Nationals were run poorly. *snip* So I call you to the carpet and say that competitors are not in it for the *glory*, but are in it for the personal satisfaction they get from competing. Sure the *glory* makes it extra nice, but if it wasn't there, Nationals would still go on. I wholly disagree with your interpretation. If I had just dropped the amount of money, time and devotion on training that the winning teams did, you better fucking believe that I would want my team to be recognized in front of our peers. It's ALSO a matter of feeling good about the team's accomplishment - not some public mastubatory exercise. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nothingbutyou 0 #43 November 13, 2006 I don't post much, well ever. I hope I don't get told to get back in my hole and zip it. I'm on a team that got out last 8 of 10 rounds. We landed on the main landing area 10 of 10 rounds. I'm not agreeing with four teams per pass, but did it affect the outcome of the meet, anyone's personal safety, or was it just an issue of comfort? As competitors we need to be forward looking and ensure that our needs are met in the future. Nationals is about the competitors, this year it didn't seem to go down like that. Everyone who entered the meet needed to take responsibility for knowing what they had entered. Obviously, there were a number of competitors who arrived uneducated, myself and my team included. Is anyone willing to talk about the fact that almost all of the artistic competitors hauled ass and left the FS people alone in the hangar for awards? Our team sat in the back and watched all but a small group of the freeflyers leave once their interests were satisfied. It would've been nice for them to stay and support the rest of the medal winners. Is the experience of medaling diminshed by not having every single 4way competitor at the awards ceremony? Is that why we train and push ourselves? So others can marvel at our presence on the medal stand. I doubt a single team that medaled is less proud because they had to wait and a number of teams were gone. On the other hand, a sincere thanks needs to be extended to the CRW competitors. They were a well represented and boisterous group during the FS awards! Guess what? We're all going back to Chicago next year for sweatshirts and cool videos. Let's not ruin anyone's Nationals 2006 experience with whining and in-fighting among FS competitors. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 7 #44 November 13, 2006 QuoteI'm on a team that got out last 8 of 10 rounds. We landed on the main landing area 10 of 10 rounds. I'm not agreeing with four teams per pass, but did it affect the outcome of the meet, anyone's personal safety, or was it just an issue of comfort? It can mess with a team. Landing off, and then expecting to land off can mess with a competitiors mind. Now the more experienced the competitior, the less it should affect them. When the DZ representative clearly states, and has it posted, to not bother asking for a go around...Well it seems the focus was on something other that the competitor IMO."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ltdiver 3 #45 November 13, 2006 Quotebut did it affect the outcome of the meet, anyone's personal safety, or was it just an issue of comfort? 1) Landing out on almost every jump -does- mess with your mind and energy level. 2) When you have to 'rush' your set-up for an exit to not be over Jimmie Kerr Blvd, then it -is- an issue of safety...and performance. 3) The round that my team had to land -way- south of the DZ they landed around high powered electric lines. IMO that is an issue of safety. Only their skill let them land safely, but what about the energy (and time) making it back to prep for the next round? Being a cameraflyer, of course -I- made it back to the alternate landing area 9 out of 10 rounds, but I wasn't wearing the most lead. One of my team members had -alot- of lead on and she had to -hike- back on one of the rounds. Nobody picked her up. Is that the way a National competition is supposed to be run? So, tracking back through line of flight -might- get a team back on the grass, but IMHO it compromises the safety of all involved. Quotewhining and in-fighting among FS competitors. None of the FS competitors are in-fighting. It is the question of how the meet was run without consideration for the safety and well-being of the competitors that is the issue. ltdiver Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nothingbutyou 0 #46 November 13, 2006 "So, tracking back through line of flight -might- get a team back on the grass, but IMHO it compromises the safety of all involved." __________________________________________________ Neither Gordo nor I said that we tracked back -through- the line of flight. We did not compromise the safety of anyone involved. My intention was not to offer commentary on the problems any team experienced. We got out last and we made it back on every round. Getting out last didn't affect our performance. I'm sorry if getting out last and/or not getting back affected your team's performance. If you read my original post, you will see I agreed that the meet was not about the competitiors. I apologize for posting at all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites MakeItHappen 15 #47 November 14, 2006 Well, I have a question for the current competitors of today. Many years ago we used to change the exit order within a plane from round to round. Eg Teams exited as 1-2-3-4 on round 1 Teams exited as 2-3-4-1 on round 2 Teams exited as 3-4-1-2 on round 3 Teams exited as 4-1-2-3 on round 4 Repeat I know the rules do not address this either way, but is this practice still common or unheard of by the new teams? A follow up on the bad spots, even after talking to the Meet Management, you can then go see the USPA Controller, aka Larry Bagley, he will help resolve your issues. For nothingbutyou: Can you explain this to me: QuoteEveryone who entered the meet needed to take responsibility for knowing what they had entered. I read it and say 'well, yeah, you need to know the events you are entered in.' Most of the teams training all season long know what event they will enter and what events might be pickup teams. So, is there a time or condition that you need the meet management to tell you what event you are entered in? Don't you know that when you sign up? .. Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ltdiver 3 #48 November 14, 2006 QuoteI know the rules do not address this either way, but is this practice still common or unheard of by the new teams? Depends on the plane, I'm guessing. I've been in competitions when we've done it either way, depending on how the teams on that particular plane want to do it. QuoteA follow up on the bad spots, even after talking to the Meet Management, you can then go see the USPA Controller, aka Larry Bagley, he will help resolve your issues. When it's posted at the loading area, -and- you've asked the Meet Director and been denied, it's nice to know you -can- go higher up. ltdiver Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites MakeItHappen 15 #49 November 14, 2006 Quote When it's posted at the loading area, -and- you've asked the Meet Director and been denied, it's nice to know you -can- going higher up. ltdiver It pays off to read the manuals. ;) I'll just add another comment. Lori, you knew where I was working and could find me very easily. If the bad spot issue was THAT important, I'd think you'd find me in a heartbeat and get it resolved. .. Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites MakeItHappen 15 #50 November 14, 2006 QuoteI wholly disagree with your interpretation. If I had just dropped the amount of money, time and devotion on training that the winning teams did, you better fucking believe that I would want my team to be recognized in front of our peers. It's ALSO a matter of feeling good about the team's accomplishment - not some public mastubatory exercise. You can agree or disagree - that is not important. I think if you talk to the winners (and losers) over the years they will say the journey is a much more valued life experience than the destination. This is not something restricted to skydiving, every life endeavor has the same qualities. .. Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 2 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
rehmwa 2 #29 November 6, 2006 I'd vote for Kurt if he ran for USPA director. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jmpwme 0 #30 November 6, 2006 Maybe one of the more math-inclined folks out there can do the math, but what would happen if you ran the Artistice Events concurrently with 4-way and made 4-way a 3 day event instead of a 2 day event (weather permitting). Would this permit all events to end on the same day thereby solving the "attendance" at awards issue? Frankly, I'd be happy doing days of 4,3,3 or 4,4,2 rather than 7/3. I realize that this plan would require 4-way jumpers to all stay on extra day. This may not be popular. Just thought I'd float the idea, although I suspect it has already been considered at some point. S. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #31 November 6, 2006 QuoteMaybe one of the more math-inclined folks out there can do the math, but what would happen if you ran the Artistice Events concurrently with 4-way well, the Artistic events are subjectively scored anyway, they could just bypass the jumps themselves and score them on how the judges "feel" about the competitors that would save time, gas and schedule insert requisite smiley here - here - and here - ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
harryskydives 0 #32 November 9, 2006 If you drag an event out an extra day, then a jump off or weather adds even more days.. some teams would be leaving before they finished.. and less people doing 8 -10 or 16 way... Don't run out of altitude and experience at the same time... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skydivesg 6 #33 November 10, 2006 I'd vote for you Kurt!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MakeItHappen 15 #34 November 11, 2006 QuoteEveryone who attended this year's Nationals is aware of how poorly it was run. Not too surprisingly, the USPA prefers not to present discussion of this in a public forum. I submitted the following for the Letters section, and the USPA politely declined to publish it. My first USPA Nationals as an intermediate jumper years ago was a life-changing experience, and one of the top few highlights was standing on the podium with my team before hundreds of peers to receive our medals for all the hard work we'd done over the year and at the meet. At that moment, I knew I'd always come back. My first Nationals also had me accepting the first place Championship award in the 4-way and 8-way Intermediate classes. Of course, that was many moons ago and the podium thing wasn't around then. Our 4-way team was presented the award as soon as possible, in the darkness of a dz, standing at the same level as everyone else, but that didn't bother us at all. The crowd cheered. That was what we wanted to hear. I think the 8-way award was during the day, but I can't really remember. QuoteThis year's competitors had no such moment to take home with them. This year's meet management decided that award ceremonies after 4-way and 8-way were unimportant, and that anyone who wanted to receive the medals they'd earned had to spend an entire week's vacation waiting around for the closing ceremonies. This is an outrageous travesty, and the worst, though only one, of many unnecessary, poor decisions made by this year's organizers. I agree with that the awards should be awarded as soon as possible. Expecting teams to hang around for 4 more days was a bit unrealistic. As far as I know, that schedule of awarding medals is up to the host, not USPA. Also I have to call you to the carpet about your complaint. You are basically whining about being deprived of your personal moment of glory. IOW, because you did not have your 'moment on the podium with adoring fans cheering you on' you say the Nationals were run poorly. I can actually identify with that at this year's nationals. For the past two years at Perris, the BOD was introduced on stage and we had that moment of glory of people clapping for us. This year, no such thing happened. The present BOD members were also not called upon to hang awards. I don't know why, don't really care now either. But I will tell you that, that night I was wondering about it. Then after a day or so of thinking about it, I realized I was just disappointed that I didn't have my moment of glory. But then I am not on the BOD for my moment of glory. I'm on it because I can help USPA members. You know, teams are not really at Nationals for that moment of glory-up on some podium - accepting an award, they are there for the excellence they can achieve as competitors. So I call you to the carpet and say that competitors are not in it for the *glory*, but are in it for the personal satisfaction they get from competing. Sure the *glory* makes it extra nice, but if it wasn't there, Nationals would still go on. QuoteNext on the list was the decision to put out four 4-way teams per pass instead of two. The meet director told us this was necessary in order to complete the meet on time. I fail to understand how this can be, since every Nationals since the hurricane-plagued 1999 meet has completed 4-way on time, including the last meet in Arizona, with the same number of planes, doing two teams per pass. This is especially curious given that this year's meet had by far the fewest 4-way teams in recent history. Due to this decision, the first and fourth teams of each load had poor spots for almost every round, saddling them with an unfair distraction that created an uneven playing field. Furthermore, it was a serious safety issue. If it really was that much of a problem, then you need to bring it up to the Meet Director in real time. Don't bitch about it after the fact. I've jumped at SDA enough to know they (Bryan, Pat, Shawn, Larry, etc) will adjust to conditions. QuoteNext came the question of money, and what the competitors got for what they paid. We don't need the spectacular opening ceremonies that Perris put on, or the frequent, sumptuous banquets provided at Perris and Lake Wales, but how do you justify charging a full hundred dollars more per person than at the prior meets, without providing any benefits other than a beer truck and a closing banquet which the meet management knew full well would be missing many of the 4-way jumpers? Betsy already answered this. QuoteOn the up side, the speed with which the judges posted scores during 4-way was truly impressive. Hats off to the judges' accomplishment, and thanks as always, guys, for your under-appreciated, long, hard hours at the buttons. Thank you on behalf of the judges, BTW, I was NOT a judge at Nats. The judges are the most under-appreciated group of people at Nationals. Good thing that all those OmniSkore systems worked like clockwork! QuoteIn the end, though, Nationals is about recognizing the hard work and performance of the people who pay for it all. You remind me of that guy that hired the reigning hot shot jumpers in FL to take him to a Medal at Nats about 15 years ago. Maybe if you greased the pot with a few thousand dollars you can have everything your way. .. Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ltdiver 3 #35 November 11, 2006 QuoteNext on the list was the decision to put out four 4-way teams per pass instead of two.*** ***If it really was that much of a problem, then you need to bring it up to the Meet Director in real time. Don't bitch about it after the fact. Jan, On almost -every- round (save the last one) my team landed out. On Round 9--WAY out. We went to the Meet Director more than once during the meet to request an adjustment to 2 out on a pass, or at least better spots for the 4th team out. We were denied this each time. It was REAL TIME and they would not adjust. ltdiver Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airgord 1 #36 November 11, 2006 Sorry that happened to your kids LT. Divewerkz had a contingency plan that we put in place earlier this year; last out, break off @ 4k, everyone track back to the dz, camera pull IMMEDIATELY at breakoff. One of my teammates landed by McGowans house and I think a couple of times two of my teamies landed in the south landing area. We almost always landed back, I always did (had to make the dubbing line). My point is that teams stop their dive plan after 35 seconds, the jump is not over until you are back in the team room bragging about how well the day went, sure, every team has a plan for cutaways etc, but no one has a breakoff plan outside of 180 and track, what if you are way out in east BF (last out) and at least two are tracking away from the far off dz? If everyone tracks back(to the dz) with a well understood plan no one is in any danger and everyone makes it back close enough to catch the dz pickup and the high fives in the packers area. The trick is, everyone has to thoroughly understand the plan. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ltdiver 3 #37 November 11, 2006 QuoteDivewerkz had a contingency plan that we put in place earlier this year; last out, break off @ 4k, everyone track back to the dz, Tracking back -down- line of flight may only work if the group out before you isn't pulling higher than you are. Frequently (at Perris) the larger group out before our team is flying larger, more docile canopies. Not the greatest plan to be tracking into -their- wake. ltdiver Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
harryskydives 0 #38 November 12, 2006 Hey Gordo & LT: I am still happy about getting to see all you guys. It quit raining here for a few hours today... Any way my team was 3rd out each time. I had the choise of the main or alternate field. I usuall picked the alternate field based on the winds, but the main had less traffic. An Air Force team was last out each time, they uausally landed their big canopies at the alternate field. I do not know if they made it each time. But if they were 3rd and we were last, we would have been flying back through their slow parachutes.. good times c ya Xmas Don't run out of altitude and experience at the same time... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nitrox100 0 #39 November 12, 2006 QuoteJan, On almost -every- round (save the last one) my team landed out. On Round 9--WAY out. We went to the Meet Director more than once during the meet to request an adjustment to 2 out on a pass, or at least better spots for the 4th team out. We were denied this each time. It was REAL TIME and they would not adjust. ltdiver We too brought it up with the meet director and were shut down. Then when they changed jump run on round 7 so the camera would not have sun glare the spot became so bad it was a joke. I remember the sign at the loading area that said something like: Ground speed 105. There will be NO second pass. DON'T EVEN THINK ABOUT ASKING FOR ONE. Every other Nationals I was at has had 4 teams per plane and 2 passes or 3 teams per plane and 1 pass. The last Nationals at Eloy had 3 teams/1 pass and that even became long when it was a difficult to set-up launch. Perris has a pretty small landing area and last year our entire team landed on the grass for all 10 rounds. They knew how to do it right. Eloy is a great DZ but I agree with the original poster. The way they ran this Nationals was a disappointment. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GQ_jumper 4 #40 November 12, 2006 It's been a while since I read the SCM but doesn't it state that teams are authorized a second pass if they feel it is in the best interest of safety?History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bob.dino 0 #41 November 12, 2006 QuoteYou remind me of that guy that hired the reigning hot shot jumpers in FL to take him to a Medal at Nats about 15 years ago. Maybe if you greased the pot with a few thousand dollars you can have everything your way. Jan, I understood your point of view up to this statement. In my opinion it's a cheap shot that detracts from the points raised earlier in your post. dave. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lauras 0 #42 November 13, 2006 QuoteYou are basically whining about being deprived of your personal moment of glory. IOW, because you did not have your 'moment on the podium with adoring fans cheering you on' you say the Nationals were run poorly. *snip* So I call you to the carpet and say that competitors are not in it for the *glory*, but are in it for the personal satisfaction they get from competing. Sure the *glory* makes it extra nice, but if it wasn't there, Nationals would still go on. I wholly disagree with your interpretation. If I had just dropped the amount of money, time and devotion on training that the winning teams did, you better fucking believe that I would want my team to be recognized in front of our peers. It's ALSO a matter of feeling good about the team's accomplishment - not some public mastubatory exercise. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nothingbutyou 0 #43 November 13, 2006 I don't post much, well ever. I hope I don't get told to get back in my hole and zip it. I'm on a team that got out last 8 of 10 rounds. We landed on the main landing area 10 of 10 rounds. I'm not agreeing with four teams per pass, but did it affect the outcome of the meet, anyone's personal safety, or was it just an issue of comfort? As competitors we need to be forward looking and ensure that our needs are met in the future. Nationals is about the competitors, this year it didn't seem to go down like that. Everyone who entered the meet needed to take responsibility for knowing what they had entered. Obviously, there were a number of competitors who arrived uneducated, myself and my team included. Is anyone willing to talk about the fact that almost all of the artistic competitors hauled ass and left the FS people alone in the hangar for awards? Our team sat in the back and watched all but a small group of the freeflyers leave once their interests were satisfied. It would've been nice for them to stay and support the rest of the medal winners. Is the experience of medaling diminshed by not having every single 4way competitor at the awards ceremony? Is that why we train and push ourselves? So others can marvel at our presence on the medal stand. I doubt a single team that medaled is less proud because they had to wait and a number of teams were gone. On the other hand, a sincere thanks needs to be extended to the CRW competitors. They were a well represented and boisterous group during the FS awards! Guess what? We're all going back to Chicago next year for sweatshirts and cool videos. Let's not ruin anyone's Nationals 2006 experience with whining and in-fighting among FS competitors. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #44 November 13, 2006 QuoteI'm on a team that got out last 8 of 10 rounds. We landed on the main landing area 10 of 10 rounds. I'm not agreeing with four teams per pass, but did it affect the outcome of the meet, anyone's personal safety, or was it just an issue of comfort? It can mess with a team. Landing off, and then expecting to land off can mess with a competitiors mind. Now the more experienced the competitior, the less it should affect them. When the DZ representative clearly states, and has it posted, to not bother asking for a go around...Well it seems the focus was on something other that the competitor IMO."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ltdiver 3 #45 November 13, 2006 Quotebut did it affect the outcome of the meet, anyone's personal safety, or was it just an issue of comfort? 1) Landing out on almost every jump -does- mess with your mind and energy level. 2) When you have to 'rush' your set-up for an exit to not be over Jimmie Kerr Blvd, then it -is- an issue of safety...and performance. 3) The round that my team had to land -way- south of the DZ they landed around high powered electric lines. IMO that is an issue of safety. Only their skill let them land safely, but what about the energy (and time) making it back to prep for the next round? Being a cameraflyer, of course -I- made it back to the alternate landing area 9 out of 10 rounds, but I wasn't wearing the most lead. One of my team members had -alot- of lead on and she had to -hike- back on one of the rounds. Nobody picked her up. Is that the way a National competition is supposed to be run? So, tracking back through line of flight -might- get a team back on the grass, but IMHO it compromises the safety of all involved. Quotewhining and in-fighting among FS competitors. None of the FS competitors are in-fighting. It is the question of how the meet was run without consideration for the safety and well-being of the competitors that is the issue. ltdiver Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nothingbutyou 0 #46 November 13, 2006 "So, tracking back through line of flight -might- get a team back on the grass, but IMHO it compromises the safety of all involved." __________________________________________________ Neither Gordo nor I said that we tracked back -through- the line of flight. We did not compromise the safety of anyone involved. My intention was not to offer commentary on the problems any team experienced. We got out last and we made it back on every round. Getting out last didn't affect our performance. I'm sorry if getting out last and/or not getting back affected your team's performance. If you read my original post, you will see I agreed that the meet was not about the competitiors. I apologize for posting at all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MakeItHappen 15 #47 November 14, 2006 Well, I have a question for the current competitors of today. Many years ago we used to change the exit order within a plane from round to round. Eg Teams exited as 1-2-3-4 on round 1 Teams exited as 2-3-4-1 on round 2 Teams exited as 3-4-1-2 on round 3 Teams exited as 4-1-2-3 on round 4 Repeat I know the rules do not address this either way, but is this practice still common or unheard of by the new teams? A follow up on the bad spots, even after talking to the Meet Management, you can then go see the USPA Controller, aka Larry Bagley, he will help resolve your issues. For nothingbutyou: Can you explain this to me: QuoteEveryone who entered the meet needed to take responsibility for knowing what they had entered. I read it and say 'well, yeah, you need to know the events you are entered in.' Most of the teams training all season long know what event they will enter and what events might be pickup teams. So, is there a time or condition that you need the meet management to tell you what event you are entered in? Don't you know that when you sign up? .. Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ltdiver 3 #48 November 14, 2006 QuoteI know the rules do not address this either way, but is this practice still common or unheard of by the new teams? Depends on the plane, I'm guessing. I've been in competitions when we've done it either way, depending on how the teams on that particular plane want to do it. QuoteA follow up on the bad spots, even after talking to the Meet Management, you can then go see the USPA Controller, aka Larry Bagley, he will help resolve your issues. When it's posted at the loading area, -and- you've asked the Meet Director and been denied, it's nice to know you -can- go higher up. ltdiver Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MakeItHappen 15 #49 November 14, 2006 Quote When it's posted at the loading area, -and- you've asked the Meet Director and been denied, it's nice to know you -can- going higher up. ltdiver It pays off to read the manuals. ;) I'll just add another comment. Lori, you knew where I was working and could find me very easily. If the bad spot issue was THAT important, I'd think you'd find me in a heartbeat and get it resolved. .. Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MakeItHappen 15 #50 November 14, 2006 QuoteI wholly disagree with your interpretation. If I had just dropped the amount of money, time and devotion on training that the winning teams did, you better fucking believe that I would want my team to be recognized in front of our peers. It's ALSO a matter of feeling good about the team's accomplishment - not some public mastubatory exercise. You can agree or disagree - that is not important. I think if you talk to the winners (and losers) over the years they will say the journey is a much more valued life experience than the destination. This is not something restricted to skydiving, every life endeavor has the same qualities. .. Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
