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Nationals post-mortem

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Everyone who attended this year's Nationals is aware of how poorly it was run. Not too surprisingly, the USPA prefers not to present discussion of this in a public forum. I submitted the following for the Letters section, and the USPA politely declined to publish it.


My first USPA Nationals as an intermediate jumper years ago was a life-changing experience, and one of the top few highlights was standing on the podium with my team before hundreds of peers to receive our medals for all the hard work we'd done over the year and at the meet. At that moment, I knew I'd always come back.

This year's competitors had no such moment to take home with them. This year's meet management decided that award ceremonies after 4-way and 8-way were unimportant, and that anyone who wanted to receive the medals they'd earned had to spend an entire week's vacation waiting around for the closing ceremonies. This is an outrageous travesty, and the worst, though only one, of many unnecessary, poor decisions made by this year's organizers.

Next on the list was the decision to put out four 4-way teams per pass instead of two. The meet director told us this was necessary in order to complete the meet on time. I fail to understand how this can be, since every Nationals since the hurricane-plagued 1999 meet has completed 4-way on time, including the last meet in Arizona, with the same number of planes, doing two teams per pass. This is especially curious given that this year's meet had by far the fewest 4-way teams in recent history. Due to this decision, the first and fourth teams of each load had poor spots for almost every round, saddling them with an unfair distraction that created an uneven playing field. Furthermore, it was a serious safety issue.

Next came the question of money, and what the competitors got for what they paid. We don't need the spectacular opening ceremonies that Perris put on, or the frequent, sumptuous banquets provided at Perris and Lake Wales, but how do you justify charging a full hundred dollars more per person than at the prior meets, without providing any benefits other than a beer truck and a closing banquet which the meet management knew full well would be missing many of the 4-way jumpers?

On the up side, the speed with which the judges posted scores during 4-way was truly impressive. Hats off to the judges' accomplishment, and thanks as always, guys, for your under-appreciated, long, hard hours at the buttons.

In the end, though, Nationals is about recognizing the hard work and performance of the people who pay for it all. I understand a drop zone is a business, and if the business has to charge more and deliver less to make the event feasible, that's their call in the end (and will hopefully be remembered next time they bid). But holding awards ceremonies would have cost the drop zone nothing, and the meet management's refusal to do so is inexcusable.


Billy Andrews
A-29342

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I agree on award ceremony. Last year's Perris was my first 4-way competition at National level and one of the greatest highlights of the meet was watching the medal contenders go for their last rounds together (although there were a few complains that the entire schedule was delayed for a few hours because the meet management re-scheduled the loads) and receive the awards. Somehow this year was not as exciting. In fact I felt like the whole 4-way crowd got scattered right after the meet was over.
As far as loads, I can only speak for our plane. We were the last team out and we (as well as the other teams on our plane) never had problems getting back, including people on heavily loaded VXses.

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I have to agree there was nothing really exciting at this years nationals. I loved how judging the last round at Perris was announced and done right infront of everyone - built a lot of excitement. Dubbing was a disaster. It seemed they had a problem everytime I went up to dub the last round. Sometimes I had to either wait as much as 15 to 20 minutes or dub it 2 or 3 times.

Other than that, it was fine. :P

Matt

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Billy,

I concur on your points.

My team was the 4th out of the plane on each competition jump. Most the time I was the only one to make it back to the grass (sometimes the alternate landing area, but that was okay). My team landed out. On one jump (round 9 out of the Elsinore Otter with a "new to National's pilot") even I landed out clear south of the runway by the logo "Fuster Cluck". My team landed FAR SOUTH amongst high tension power lines on that out-landing. :| We were told when we returned that 'the pilot was confused'. :S On a National's competition!?! B|

Having won our first National's medal this time around it would sure have been nice to have our peers looking and cheering on. Not to be, although enough of the Perris locals (and thanks Deguello 17) there was some nice 'noise' as we walked to the stage.

Yes, we very much enjoyed the build-up on Round 10 (and 11) at Perris last year and perhaps that can return at SDC.

One lesson I've learned this year is to scrutinize the schedule when it is published and -not- presume that things will be arranged to the betterment of the competitors automatically. Guess I didn't know better, having been to Nationals since 1997 and believing it was this way each time.

Hat's off to the judges and Omniskore. They did the best job ever this time around. :)
ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

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Yeah, waiting to the end for the awards was not a good call. It should say something when the team that won 4way was not there. I paid an extra 400-500 dollars to stick around to collect my medal, and one guy on our team had to leave.

Awards should be after each event.

One reason we were told that all the events were presented at the same time was that some events were upset that when their event medals were handed out that no one was there.....Well when I went to collect my medal the crowd was almost already gone. Some could not even wait 15 min, but they wanted to make others wait DAYS?

Passes. 4 teams on one pass is asking for off landings. It is wise to put a team off just to get an extra load off? I would gladley have done 6 rounds instead of 7 to be able to land on the DZ and not have to collect my team after each round.

Cost....anyone know why this event cost 100 bucks more than last year? The food was OK, but not worth 100 bucks more, and a good number of people left so thats extra money the DZ gets to stick in the bank. The biggest event was 4 way, but those that did only 4way had to stick around 5 days to eat the dinner they had to pay for?
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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I'm not sure how many 4-way competitors were at the award ceremony out of the 325 - 400 people, I'm guessing less than 40%. However, it was very disappointing not to see the winning teams recognized for the performance in front of their piers. It was also very shocking to watch the teams go home without their hardware. For some of the competitiors winning a medal in 4-way at Nationals is a life time achievement. Those who had to leave prior to the awards feel there was no closure to their season.

At Skydive Chicago in 2002, medals were awarded within hours of the competition. The ceremony also had a video complied of the winning teams to go along with medal presentation. I can say this one one of the best award presentations I've attended. I hope this will be the case next year.

As competitors we need to make sure this gets addressed up front. How do we make sure we are heard by USPA, and they act on our concerns? I doubt this forum is the place to address USPA, but if there are any USPA savy folks, prehaps you could let us know our next steps.

Alex

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I think getting in touch with MaryLou Laughlin would be the first step since she's the USPA director that heads the competition committee. Her email address is [email protected].

Other members of the competition committee are: Max Cohn, Larry Hill, Madolyn Murdoch, Scott Smith & Tony Thacker. http://www.uspa.org/contact/bod.htm for more addresses, etc.

I don't know if the decision to run awards & the flow of the meet was solely Bryan Burke's but, I would think that the competition committee would have *some* influence since it's the USPA nationals.

On another note, I've been wondering if 4-way should just breakoff from the USPA nationals altogether and run competition via NSL? USPA wants to be "fair" to all the events with the same emphasis on each discipline, regardless of the number of competitors. NSL is all 4 & 8 way, all the time. Maybe that's a better venue?

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Larry Bagley forwarded my letter to the competition committee, and I've been told it will be reviewed at the next board meeting in January.

I approve of that process; what I didn't approve of was the refusal to publish the letter, as a valid reason was not forthcoming. It smacks of reluctance to face criticism.

Regarding the question of who was involved in the meet planning decisions, I don't know who all of the people were. Amy Chmelecki was one, as it turns out, and she contacted me immediately after my post, showing a genuine concern for the consequences of the decisions.

I am optimistic that this year's errors will not be repeated, but a big part of ensuring the improvement is to hold the management accountable in the USPA's primary public forum, namely the Letters section in Parachutist.

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hold the management accountable in the USPA's primary public forum, namely the Letters section in Parachutist.



I think getting it to the comp committee and discussing with Amy were the right things to do. The Parachutist letters section is a joke. What's been done with your comments is much more productive.

You might also consider copying your letter to each board member (including all the regional directors) and attending the next meeting too.


other: Lauras's comment about 4w and 8w being run by the NSL is interesting. The big change to use the NSL Championships as the national USPA sanctioned meet? NSL has playoff criterion and 4 comp categories. I don't mind additional comp categories (but don't advocate either), but nats are cool in that any team can go and it's a mix of the best competition and skills and also, culturally, a very good quasi-boogie atmosphere too - playoff qualifications would hurt that atmosphere and openness. NSL meet progression would also allow consideration of the best team over a season to be the national champion rather than just over a single event. I don't know if I like that or not.

I suspect that VRW will also join the NSL for regional meets. So in the end, it's more of a NSL handles the directly scorable comp categories, and the USPA handles the artisitic events type of suggestion

I don't see it happening. I think it's a good idea, but I don't see it happening.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

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I don't know if the decision to run awards & the flow of the meet was solely Bryan Burke's but, I would think that the competition committee would have *some* influence since it's the USPA nationals.



For clarification purposes I have the following to add from Larry.
Quote

I set the schedule and I am willing to take the heat for it. It is the way that I wanted the meet to run. There's two side to every position and I have received as many for
the way the medals were presented as the other side. I have run Nationals
both ways and I prefer the way I did it at this one.




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As competitors we need to make sure this gets addressed up front. How do we make sure we are heard by USPA, and they act on our concerns?



Yep, and that is exactly what I have been saying for a very long time. Send emails to the competition committee, go to the BOD meetings, talk to your RD.:)








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For clarification purposes I have the following to add from Larry.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote
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I set the schedule and I am willing to take the heat for it. It is the way that I wanted the meet to run. There's two side to every position and I have received as many for
the way the medals were presented as the other side. I have run Nationals
both ways and I prefer the way I did it at this one.



And he may like it better, but is the meet for him, or the competitors?
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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other: Lauras's comment about 4w and 8w being run by the NSL is interesting. The big change to use the NSL Championships as the national USPA sanctioned meet? NSL has playoff criterion and 4 comp categories. I don't mind additional comp categories (but don't advocate either), but nats are cool in that any team can go and it's a mix of the best competition and skills and also, culturally, a very good quasi-boogie atmosphere too - playoff qualifications would hurt that atmosphere and openness. NSL meet progression would also allow consideration of the best team over a season to be the national champion rather than just over a single event. I don't know if I like that or not.



I agree. One of my complaints about the current structure has always been the fact that a team who is not necessarily the best team in the country, can have a good day at nationals and end up representing the USA at the world championships. This happened a few years ago. Making more than one meet the determining factor would help to guarantee that the team we send to represent us would be the best we have. I doubt it will happen because, like it or not the USPA is a political organization and they need to protect their interests.
Time flies like an arrow....fruit flies like a banana

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like it or not the USPA is a political organization and they need to protect their interests.



I'm not sure what that means.....

The current way is, at least, not as subjective as using season averages or improvement projections, etc. And if the winner isn't the best team on average, they are still the best team at that meet.

As I said, using a seasonal structure (like the NSL) would allow us to "consider" the overall team performance in addition to the qualifying meet to decide who represents. I didn't say it would be better.

Recall, that a couple years ago, freestyle was underrepresented by the Nationals medal winners and, I believe, we successful lobbied to send a great team to World that hadn't qualified at Nats. I think that shows we are flexible when we have to be.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

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For those that are new to Nationals, or at least within the last few years, all of these issues have been debated for years. Taking them in order -

1. Awards. There is a never ending debate on this one. FS jumpers, especially 4-way given its the largetst of the events, want awards to be right after the completion of the event. There is more excitement, more energy in the group and the largest turnout when this happens. Chicago did it best in my opinion, but Perris was right there as well both in 2005 and in 2000. No waiting, no fuss, no muss. The video show in Chicago was also a very nice touch.

This desire as been competing with the desire of the other events, including freefly and the other Artistic Events, as well as Crw and classics, to have a good crowd for their awards as well. A desire I can appreciate having been on the other side for a year (skysurf video). All of these competitors deserve the same respect and honor that 4-way and the other FS events receive. The medal winners here are just as important and any other medal winners.

Therein lies the issue that every National's meet director and USPA try to deal with. Several solutions have been offered and tried. Other events first, FS last; awards at the end of the week, awards in the middle of the week for some etc. etc. They are yet to find a perfect solution.

On the international scene, this is remedied by running the meet over a course of the week so that the final rounds of all events are run on the last two days. Keeps everybody there and occupied. This would work great here EXCEPT that most 4-way competitors try to take as little vacation time as possible. The number of 4-way competitors that actually do the other events is very small. So, this solution really doesn't work either.

Is there a solution - I don't know. From where I sit, somebody takes it in the shorts regardless of how the event is scheduled. That being the case, I would attempt to make the largest number of people happy which means, at least for 4-way, having the awards right after the completion of the event with party to follow. I wouldn't like it, but IMO its the best option.

2. NSL v. USPA - it has been discussed over and over. you can see prior threads. Unlikely to ever happen and US teams will likely continue to always be chosen at Nationals. Our sport has not yet developed to a point were the top teams will agree to expend the cash and energy to participate in a series of competitions. We are simply not there yet. Americas cup, Skysurf tour etc. have all failed in this type of structure. Maybe some day. Its good forward thinking. I believe track and Field and Swimming only recently moved to Olympic selection by a series of events rather than the "Olympic trials" Not sure where Ice Skating currently is. All of these sports are much larger than ours. Besides, keeping it to a single meet selection makes the "on year" events that much more exciting to watch.

3. 4 teams per pass. Piss on this. I'm a spotting wuss in any event, happy I didn't have to deal with this issue. 2 teams per pass is standard and gives you plenty of time. Sometime you are still out on this plan with triple parrell jump runs etc. If an event can't be completed under those rules, the host shouldn't be hosting it. Eloy knows better. To me, this is a fuel cost issue. More profit for the DZ or whomever gets the cash at a nationals event. FYI - fuel cost explains the extra entry fee. Its all about money.

Of course I wasn't there this year so I have no right to bitch. Accordingly, everybody can ignore my opinion.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Steve
GT

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This desire as been competing with the desire of the other events, including freefly and the other Artistic Events, as well as Crw and classics, to have a good crowd for their awards as well. A desire I can appreciate having been on the other side for a year (skysurf video). All of these competitors deserve the same respect and honor that 4-way and the other FS events receive. The medal winners here are just as important and any other medal winners.



The medals should be at the end of the event....If Freefly/CRW/Style/Surf want a bigger turn out, then maybe they should have more teams? It is not that they don't deserve respect, but is making the RW folks wait a week being respectful?

55 4way teams not including guests.
13 8way teams
21 TOTAL CRW teams
7 Freestyle teams
3 Surf teams
8 Freefly teams

It is a shame that the RW folks had to take a week off and spend the extra time to collect their medals so that smaller events could have attendance for the awards. And let me tell you that when 8way people were collecting their medals most of the CRW/FF/Surf and Freestyle people were already gone. It was like a ghost town in the hanger by then. The other events didn't wait 15 mins but want the RW folks to wait a week?
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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So you agree with me then my friend??? I believe that was my ultimate solution following my recitation of the facts for those much younger than ourselves!!



Of course....

I just wanted to back you up and all.;)
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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So you agree with me then my friend??? I believe that was my ultimate solution following my recitation of the facts for those much younger than ourselves!!



Of course....

I just wanted to back you up and all.;)




At the Olympics they don't wait until the very end to award the medals.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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At the Olympics they don't wait until the very end to award the medals.


Yep they do! And the delegation stays for closing ceremonies. But that is niether here nor there:)A question was raised about money so I will address this just to educate those that do not know how things work.
First off last year the judges were awarded a higher per-diem. It use to be $60 now its $100 per day. Multiply that by 32+ judges. The average check I wrote was $900 each. Then include all their flights, accomodations, meals, transportation, gas.
Host pays for judges vip room and all contents.
Medals...yep gotta pay for those.
Fuel..yep at a higher cost.
Pilots...check
Additional staffing...check
equipment rental..check
sanitation services...check
ESPN..split between the host and the USPA $2500 each.
This does not include many other items because then the list would be huge.
Most of the above is paid for by the competitors, the rest is paid for by the host.

Sponsored items:
BEER (Golden Eagle)
Tee-shirts (PD)
credentials/lanyards (PD/SunPath,UPT,Vigil)
Spotlight (PD)
Competitor tent (PD,UPT,SunPath,Vigil)
Thank you to the sponsors!

All set up and clean up is paid for by the host. If people actually believe that the host makes a good chuck of money by hosting the event, I am here to tell you...it just ain't so.

P.S. Ron..you forgot style, accuracy and sport accuracy;)








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Medals are awarded after the event in the Olympics. The closing ceremonies of the Olympics are not a medal ceremony, but a celebration and closing of the Olympics.. I'm pretty sure the medalist at the Olympics, who could not stick around for the closing ceremonies, went home with their hard earned medals.

This is neither here nor there. Skydiving is not an Olympic sport. The fact is most of the competitors thought medals would be awarded after 4-way, and were very disappointed to realize differently. Shame on us for making that assumption. This should have been addressed months ago.

Let's utilize the avenues open to us to make sure this does not happen again. Let's write letters to USPA asking them to place verbiage in the bid document for nationals including a statement regarding the timing of awarding medals in the 4-way competition. This would take this decision out of the meet directors’ hands. Weather this is 2 hours to 30 hours warrants some discussion.

For next year, let's contact the meet director and find out his plan. If his/her plan is unacceptable to competitors, then you don't have to attend. Sky Quest could be come a whole lot larger.

Stepping back for a minute, let’s also hope Nationals is not all about the medals. Let’s remember it’s a time where many of us with similar passions gather once a year to compete, hang out, and celebrate. It’s a giant family reunion and an excuse to take a vacation.;)

Alex

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At the Olympics they don't wait until the very end to award the medals.


Yep they do! And the delegation stays for closing ceremonies. But that is neither here nor there:)



Don't be silly. Olympic medals are awarded as soon as possible after each seperate event finishes - the way that pretty much every interdisciplinary sporting event I've ever seen also operates.;)
Do you want to have an ideagasm?

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Sorry guys that was not my intent. I was agreeing.
I know that medals are awarded at the end of each event at the Olympics. Lord knows I have been to enough of them to know. Skydiving isn't the Olympics.:)Again it all goes back to the competitors. If you want the medals awarded in a specific way then write a set of protocols and send it to the USPA. Once adopted, everyone will then know what to expect:)That was my suggestion to Chris Needles as well as MaryLou.:)
I am confident that the Nationals in Chicago will be fantastic and extend best wishes to all the competitors for a wonderful Nationals experience.
Remember too that it takes a lot of additional people to put a meet together. Volunteer your time! I am certain that Skydive Chicago would welcome it.:)








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That being said, can one of our lawyer types out there draft up a letter (Steve). All of us can download the letter from this forum. We can then print and sign our names and mail to USPA. We can also forward the letter to our fellow competitors that have lives and don't visit this forum. :)
Alex

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