jmpwme 0 #26 June 15, 2006 uhhhhhhhhhhhhh, I wouldn't know, Arlo???? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
arlo 0 #27 June 15, 2006 need more data... ================================== edited to get this biotch back on track (why? dunno): the russian women's 4-way team the ladybirds WILL be competing at the world meet! woohoo! best of luck to all the teams from the land of control towers... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AMax 0 #28 June 15, 2006 To take a scientific approach one needs to establish a correlation (or lack of correlation) between the point average, average temperature at the home DZ during a training season and .... oh .... the sizes ... the first two datasets are very eazy to get - thanks to T1, T2 and numerous weather sites. I am not sure about the sizes though .... And by the way, should cameraman be included? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #29 June 15, 2006 god, would someone please transfer this to bonfire where it can die? Ron tried to do a nice tangential digression to the whole women class controversial subject and now - total chaos. Next time I need a fire lit, I'm asking Arlo to help. (I should be happy there's any posting on RW ) I'll try - anybody here have any thoughts about player coaches? RSLs? or AADs? ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
arlo 0 #30 June 15, 2006 okay okay. i'll work with ya on redirecting, bill. ;) things were just shiiiiiiiiny in the earlier posts. ;) (serious face ): 4-way: fire w/synapsi right in there. BUT...instinct says don't rule out the french just because they said they don't have many trng jumps. 4-way femme: french with the british team close. 8-way: airspeed with the french and then russians right there. (better?) love, the pyro Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HeatherB 0 #31 June 15, 2006 Stick in the mud! I think the female class should go away. Women have proven that they can perform just as well as the guys. Besides perhaps strength for blocks, what "advantages" in 4-way do guys have over women? I'm honestly curious if people think women are at a disadvantage physically/mentally/whatever. Can of worms? Maybe, but I can't see a justification for a female class. The "to get more women to compete" reason seems lame to me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AMax 0 #32 June 15, 2006 Quote 4-way: fire w/synapsi right in there. BUT...instinct says don't rule out the french just because they said they don't have many trng jumps. You keep forgetting the Cats .... meow Remember, they challenged Fire in Eloy (loosing the silver on jump-off). Despite a serious injury of a teammate, they have been training pretty hard and have a lot of potential. Agree on the rest. P.S. ... What do I know anyway? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
arlo 0 #33 June 15, 2006 the reason i didn't add the cats was for the reason you stated - the injury earlier this year (). it's great to hear they've been training hard because they have an outstanding team. would love to see them in the mix!! more good teams at the top of the heap make for a much more exciting world meet. i'd rather chew my nails off into round 10 than see a shoe-in after round 6.... (still on track! ) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AMax 0 #34 June 15, 2006 Quote i'd rather chew my nails off into round 10 than see a shoe-in after round 6.... Yup Fire definitely added a lot of excitement to last years Nationals and a World Cup winning two jump-offs. Watching them going on round 11 with GK's was one of my most remarkable experiences from 2005 nats. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jmpwme 0 #35 June 15, 2006 Predictions are tough, except for women's 4-way, I think 4 way will be very tight, USA and Italy are the "knowns" but France and Russia will be in the hunt. There are certainly a few other squads that could go for personal bests and land on the podium. 8 way - Gotta go with Airspeed. Thomas is a great new addition to an alread outstanding team. France and Russia will be close Ladies 4-way - France easy, UK silver, USA and Russia in a battle for the bronze. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #36 June 15, 2006 QuoteLadies 4-way - France easy, UK silver, USA and Russia in a battle for the bronze. Well, as long as they are cute. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GQ_jumper 4 #37 June 15, 2006 Don't the russians also have a fairly young group of guys on their 4 way team, that can always play a part when the tensions get high.History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Travman 6 #38 June 16, 2006 Australia will amaze everyone and blow the competition away!!! Either way... go OZ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GQ_jumper 4 #39 June 16, 2006 I'm sure the aussie's will put up a good fight, as will all the teams that show up. What kind of average is your National team pushin?History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stumpy 256 #40 June 16, 2006 What about the belgians? I have seen Fire, Sinapsi, Odyssey and Hayabusa at close quarters in the last few weeks. Hayabusa have absolutely awesome outright speed, now if they can just tidy up a bit....Never try to eat more than you can lift Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #41 June 16, 2006 QuoteWhat about the belgians? I have seen Fire, Sinapsi, Odyssey and Hayabusa at close quarters in the last few weeks. Hayabusa have absolutely awesome outright speed, now if they can just tidy up a bit.... Odyssey is not going. With Hayabusa it's the tidying it up a bit part. Hayabusa did a 47 (J-O-A-H-F) really. But so did Fire (F-M-P-O-E). And both had video issues. No doubt they will do well, but I tend to place a bit more faith in the people who have been there once before (Fire with Garry) or with the guy that has been at every World Meet since god did a SL (PD with Pete). Of course thats just my opinion..."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bojana 0 #42 June 16, 2006 I'm really looking forward to this world meet, it's so exciting to even think about it, to see a great competition and world's best teams and to catch up with everyone I haven't seen since last world meet.Anyone else so enthusiastic about it? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #43 June 16, 2006 If Odyssey isn't going how is that effecting the Airspeed 8 way? Are they not planning on doing 8 way? Or am I missing some thing. Just curious I am a fan after all and we don't have enough tabloids for skydiving!An Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gaillou 0 #44 June 16, 2006 odyssey is a 4-way team... so this team is not qualified... but the members will be in the airspeed 8 way and they'll go ok?Guillaume French 4-way & 8-way suporter Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #45 June 16, 2006 OK now I got it (I forgot the qual process, I am soooo embarASSed.An Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GQ_jumper 4 #46 June 16, 2006 of all people to not know thisHistory does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skykittykat 0 #47 June 19, 2006 My predictions are: 4-way Open - Fire or Sinapsi with Spa, the Norgies and Russia battling it out for 3rd. 4-way Women - France, UK, Russia with a big battle between France and the UK. 8-Way - Airspeed, France and Russia (although I think a jump off for one medal could happen). Bear in mind that although meet scores/averages are out there for all teams, it is the best team on the day which wins and competing at a World Meet can either bring out the best or the worst in a team. LizBits is being resurrected on Omniskore for the World Meet, so these predictions are PURELY personal and no bias will be made by me when reporting from Germany! Dan - your wooden spoon was certainly working hard over your best looking female statement Liz Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GQ_jumper 4 #48 June 19, 2006 Dan - your wooden spoon was certainly working hard over your best looking female statementQuote that's just wrong!!!History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Alienangel 0 #49 June 20, 2006 Quote4-Way This year we've seen more countries than ever before pushing out teams that have been posting scores in the 20+ range, US, Italy, Belgium, Russia, France, and I think the Brits have 21 potential this year as well No offence to the British Open team but if they have 21 potential this year it'll be the biggest leap in the history of the sport. In reply to HeatherB: QuoteBesides perhaps strength for blocks, what "advantages" in 4-way do guys have over women? I'm honestly curious if people think women are at a disadvantage physically/mentally/whatever. The crux here is the use of the word 'besides'. Strength. For blocks. Correct. What do you think people are doing up there at a 20+? It is a hard, physical sport, not a soft game of sky-tag. Women are typically less muscular and less strong than men, which is why nearly every other sport in the world has a female category. To push 'physical strength' to one side as if it is irrelevant to the sport of competitive formation skydiving denigrates the athleticism of every top level 4- and 8-way competitor in the world. They are fit, strong, powerful athletes who work on building muscle to a high level outside other traning. Doing a 21, 22, 23 average is NOT the same as doing a 15, 16, 17 - which is where the top women's teams are right now. No women's team has yet even hit 18, and the only women who have seen and felt an 18+ did it with men strengthening the overall team. QuoteCan of worms? Maybe, but I can't see a justification for a female class. The "to get more women to compete" reason seems lame to me. Anything that gets more people into the sport, more exposure for more individual skydivers, a greater range of goals for teams to target, more people on podiums, IMHO, is good for skydiving. Our sport is small and underfunded as it is. Why make it smaller? If you want a Men's class as well as Open and Women's then maybe that might be a better option. I'd also like to see a Non-Pro class at World Meets as we do at SSL meets - everything like this encourages more teams to train, and brings more money and people into the sport. Women in the Women's Class are aware they are 'only' in the Women's Class - but I don't think this detracts from what it means to medal in Open, or in the Female Class. It is, as yet, what it is - a different league - and there is nothing to stop individual women moving up and out of that league if they have the talent. Eliana and Ditta, both top class skydivers, have done just that and I think the Women's Class might have had something to do with it. Maybe you think they did it the 'wrong' way? I often hear people who haven't hit even a 17+ in their own teams complaining that 'women are just as capable as men'...I think perhaps not many people who have been at a 20+ would agree with you. Women at this level are the exception, not the rule. It is a tough job being a chick on an all-male team (see Ditta's post elsewhere on this forum) and as yet it has not been proven that all-female teams can compete on equal level with mixed or all-male teams. That is not to say it won't happen. But as yet we do not know empirically that it is possible - so perhaps we shouldn't scoff at 'strength for blocks' as if it were nothing. Top level male and female competitors are not pansying around like fairies as they turn a 21 average, they are using a significant amount of muscle and strength - something men, in general, have more abundantly than women. Until that changes or we DO see an all-female team at a 20+ (something I hope to see), talk of the abolition of the Women's Class is nothing but a bunch of hot air used in misplaced self-righteousness by people who, let's face it, just wanna skydive with hot chicks. Damn I knew I was gonna lose my thread like everyone else on here did... AA Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 7 #50 June 20, 2006 QuoteThe crux here is the use of the word 'besides'. Strength. For blocks. Correct. What do you think people are doing up there at a 20+? It is a hard, physical sport, not a soft game of sky-tag. Women are typically less muscular and less strong than men, which is why nearly every other sport in the world has a female category. To push 'physical strength' to one side as if it is irrelevant to the sport of competitive formation skydiving denigrates the athleticism of every top level 4- and 8-way competitor in the world. They are fit, strong, powerful athletes who work on building muscle to a high level outside other traning. Doing a 21, 22, 23 average is NOT the same as doing a 15, 16, 17 - which is where the top women's teams are right now. No women's team has yet even hit 18, and the only women who have seen and felt an 18+ did it with men strengthening the overall team. This whole argument falls dead when you mention that there are women on most of the top teams. Because the top teams pick the *best* they can, and if they thought that a women would be less capable, they would not have them. Unless you want to claim that they are only doing so well since they are being helped by men? I don't see it that way at all. I think women are equal to men in this sport. The air does not care who is pushing it, only how. And Eliana, Natasha, Dawn English ect are proof of that. Goes against your argument here as well : "That is not to say that women are, as individuals, less talented than men, simply that, due to sheer numbers of female skydivers in relation to men, there are fewer..... Well, it's certainly not MY mindset, which is exactly WHY I doubt the need for 'women only' records. Women are as 'capable' as men and should not need to be given 'special' status. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1077632#1077632" QuoteI often hear people who haven't hit even a 17+ in their own teams complaining that 'women are just as capable as men'...I think perhaps not many people who have been at a 20+ would agree with you. Women at this level are the exception, not the rule. To say that women are equal to men is "complaining"???? WOW. As for a woman who does a 20 being the exception...So are the men who do a 20. QuoteIt is a tough job being a chick on an all-male team (see Ditta's post elsewhere on this forum) and as yet it has not been proven that all-female teams can compete on equal level with mixed or all-male teams. That is not to say it won't happen. But as yet we do not know empirically that it is possible - so perhaps we shouldn't scoff at 'strength for blocks' as if it were nothing The problem is one you mentioned above....Lack of a bunch of women trying to be the best. You fiqure that 80% (Low guess) of the sport is male and only 20 % female. And then look at the number of males that can do a 20 in 4way and it is lets say its 50 in the world. That would only mean that 10 women in the world could do the same if they had the same success rate. The problem is raw numbers, not weakness based on sex. It is only because the smaller number of females that jump leads to the smaller number of female RW types, that leads to the smaller number of serious 4way types that there are not more top level females....Its not about what is between their legs. If you took Eliana (US team), Natahsa (US team), Arianna (Italy), Ditta (Norway) ect and put them on the same team...They would kick ass. Not just female ass, but male ass as well."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Next Page 2 of 11 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
Alienangel 0 #49 June 20, 2006 Quote4-Way This year we've seen more countries than ever before pushing out teams that have been posting scores in the 20+ range, US, Italy, Belgium, Russia, France, and I think the Brits have 21 potential this year as well No offence to the British Open team but if they have 21 potential this year it'll be the biggest leap in the history of the sport. In reply to HeatherB: QuoteBesides perhaps strength for blocks, what "advantages" in 4-way do guys have over women? I'm honestly curious if people think women are at a disadvantage physically/mentally/whatever. The crux here is the use of the word 'besides'. Strength. For blocks. Correct. What do you think people are doing up there at a 20+? It is a hard, physical sport, not a soft game of sky-tag. Women are typically less muscular and less strong than men, which is why nearly every other sport in the world has a female category. To push 'physical strength' to one side as if it is irrelevant to the sport of competitive formation skydiving denigrates the athleticism of every top level 4- and 8-way competitor in the world. They are fit, strong, powerful athletes who work on building muscle to a high level outside other traning. Doing a 21, 22, 23 average is NOT the same as doing a 15, 16, 17 - which is where the top women's teams are right now. No women's team has yet even hit 18, and the only women who have seen and felt an 18+ did it with men strengthening the overall team. QuoteCan of worms? Maybe, but I can't see a justification for a female class. The "to get more women to compete" reason seems lame to me. Anything that gets more people into the sport, more exposure for more individual skydivers, a greater range of goals for teams to target, more people on podiums, IMHO, is good for skydiving. Our sport is small and underfunded as it is. Why make it smaller? If you want a Men's class as well as Open and Women's then maybe that might be a better option. I'd also like to see a Non-Pro class at World Meets as we do at SSL meets - everything like this encourages more teams to train, and brings more money and people into the sport. Women in the Women's Class are aware they are 'only' in the Women's Class - but I don't think this detracts from what it means to medal in Open, or in the Female Class. It is, as yet, what it is - a different league - and there is nothing to stop individual women moving up and out of that league if they have the talent. Eliana and Ditta, both top class skydivers, have done just that and I think the Women's Class might have had something to do with it. Maybe you think they did it the 'wrong' way? I often hear people who haven't hit even a 17+ in their own teams complaining that 'women are just as capable as men'...I think perhaps not many people who have been at a 20+ would agree with you. Women at this level are the exception, not the rule. It is a tough job being a chick on an all-male team (see Ditta's post elsewhere on this forum) and as yet it has not been proven that all-female teams can compete on equal level with mixed or all-male teams. That is not to say it won't happen. But as yet we do not know empirically that it is possible - so perhaps we shouldn't scoff at 'strength for blocks' as if it were nothing. Top level male and female competitors are not pansying around like fairies as they turn a 21 average, they are using a significant amount of muscle and strength - something men, in general, have more abundantly than women. Until that changes or we DO see an all-female team at a 20+ (something I hope to see), talk of the abolition of the Women's Class is nothing but a bunch of hot air used in misplaced self-righteousness by people who, let's face it, just wanna skydive with hot chicks. Damn I knew I was gonna lose my thread like everyone else on here did... AA Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #50 June 20, 2006 QuoteThe crux here is the use of the word 'besides'. Strength. For blocks. Correct. What do you think people are doing up there at a 20+? It is a hard, physical sport, not a soft game of sky-tag. Women are typically less muscular and less strong than men, which is why nearly every other sport in the world has a female category. To push 'physical strength' to one side as if it is irrelevant to the sport of competitive formation skydiving denigrates the athleticism of every top level 4- and 8-way competitor in the world. They are fit, strong, powerful athletes who work on building muscle to a high level outside other traning. Doing a 21, 22, 23 average is NOT the same as doing a 15, 16, 17 - which is where the top women's teams are right now. No women's team has yet even hit 18, and the only women who have seen and felt an 18+ did it with men strengthening the overall team. This whole argument falls dead when you mention that there are women on most of the top teams. Because the top teams pick the *best* they can, and if they thought that a women would be less capable, they would not have them. Unless you want to claim that they are only doing so well since they are being helped by men? I don't see it that way at all. I think women are equal to men in this sport. The air does not care who is pushing it, only how. And Eliana, Natasha, Dawn English ect are proof of that. Goes against your argument here as well : "That is not to say that women are, as individuals, less talented than men, simply that, due to sheer numbers of female skydivers in relation to men, there are fewer..... Well, it's certainly not MY mindset, which is exactly WHY I doubt the need for 'women only' records. Women are as 'capable' as men and should not need to be given 'special' status. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1077632#1077632" QuoteI often hear people who haven't hit even a 17+ in their own teams complaining that 'women are just as capable as men'...I think perhaps not many people who have been at a 20+ would agree with you. Women at this level are the exception, not the rule. To say that women are equal to men is "complaining"???? WOW. As for a woman who does a 20 being the exception...So are the men who do a 20. QuoteIt is a tough job being a chick on an all-male team (see Ditta's post elsewhere on this forum) and as yet it has not been proven that all-female teams can compete on equal level with mixed or all-male teams. That is not to say it won't happen. But as yet we do not know empirically that it is possible - so perhaps we shouldn't scoff at 'strength for blocks' as if it were nothing The problem is one you mentioned above....Lack of a bunch of women trying to be the best. You fiqure that 80% (Low guess) of the sport is male and only 20 % female. And then look at the number of males that can do a 20 in 4way and it is lets say its 50 in the world. That would only mean that 10 women in the world could do the same if they had the same success rate. The problem is raw numbers, not weakness based on sex. It is only because the smaller number of females that jump leads to the smaller number of female RW types, that leads to the smaller number of serious 4way types that there are not more top level females....Its not about what is between their legs. If you took Eliana (US team), Natahsa (US team), Arianna (Italy), Ditta (Norway) ect and put them on the same team...They would kick ass. Not just female ass, but male ass as well."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
