Launching exits @ 4 grand

[kc10boom 0]

Hi all,
Just wanted some feed back on launching exits at H&P altitudes. One of my team mates and I got together w/two other members of a 4way team and launched exits and held them for about 6-10 sec then tracked off. I have to say it was the biggest rush if have felt in a while. The need to nail the exit out the door was never more important and challenging! Is this a good practice for low cloud days?

NKAWTG...N

[Shark 0]

You should've had atleast 4-6 points from 4k!

[damion75 0]

It works for me - and not just for bad weather days if you are training. With the wind tunnels around to practice the freefall part of the dive over and over, it seems to make sense to ram as many exit drills as possible into a day on the DZ - and you can do more per day from that altitude.

It also helps that I love flying my canopy plenty too...

***************

Not one shred of evidence supports the theory that life is serious - look at the platypus.

[rehmwa 2]

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Just wanted some feed back on launching exits at H&P altitudes.

Launching around normal breakoff altitude is fine if everyone is heads up. Launch and leave. If newer and you still tumble once in a while, then I'd hold off launching anything unless at least a little above normal breakoff - 3, 3.5, 4 depending on the team.

{{But I'm originally from an old Cessna DZ, I suspect many would take issue with what some of us consider a 'real' H&P altitude number - and, in today's training world, they are probably right - we break at 3.5, so a 4way launch from 3 or 3.5 doesn't make us nervous at all, a solo H&P from 2 or 2.5 is what I consider normal H&P, and with my older rig with a much faster opening even the high teens - gasp. Waiver....but teaching a newbie a H&P does mean they do the training from 4 or higher as it should be, but the point is to be trained to exit from a much lower altitude}}

From 4K, that's time to turn a few points.

Now what kind of environment that considers 4K to be H&P has been beat up quite a bit on the Gen Skydiving Discussions Forum. But I guess someone can H&P at 10K or 13K if they want to.

But anything launched above your normal breakoff altitude just isn't a risk adder at all unless you tend to tumble your exits. But if it jazzes the team, great. Use that tension to your benefit in your training and remember what it feels like when the exits go great under the perceived pressure.

Be safe

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[apincus 0]

Years ago we routinly had pack opening altitude at 2000 FT AGL. Back then line twist were rarely, if ever, a high speed malfunction, and canopies did not take 500- 1000 feet to inflate.

Be aware that the lower you open you parachute, the less time you have to deal with situations. The extra
500FT of altitude may be the difference between you kicking out of line twists (or other issue) or cutting away.

There is a baseline of risk in this sport. The choices we make effect the level of risk we take. Weigh the risks wisely and look at the possible consequences. At this point, you are ready to make a decision.

Alex

[bliston 0]

We breakoff at 4K and don't launch any exits unless we're at 4.5 or above. 5K exits are certainly a valuable tool to "push" you to ramp up your hill work, but why push it by exiting lower?

With more and more lawn darts poppin' up every day, we FS skydivers need to watch out for each other. There's some glory in having a cypres fire if you get a knee to the mellon turning a 6 or an 18 and go unconscious... not so much when you're in the basement because you wanted to turn some points a jump that should've been a hop and pop...

How's it go? "There are old and there are bold...."

Ben

Mass Defiance 4-wayFS website


sticks!

[kc10boom 0]

Thanks for all the input...we had a blast launching exits and learned a lot about flying our slots. Be safe this weekend...Boom

Hey Shark...Call or PM and let me know about your dive school...later

NKAWTG...N

[elightle 8]

Thanks, Ben, for reminding everybody that there's no need to push the envelope when pulling off exits. As you indicated, at 4K it's time to get away from everybody. You can lose a lot of altitude in a funnel

By the way, Ben, a very belated congrats on Mass Defiance's win at Nationals. I'm livin' my dream through guys like you.

Blues to All!
Ed Lightle

[AMax 0]

Just wanted to add my 2 cents to what’s already been said by Alex and Ben. IMHO, beside the safety issue, there is also a mental aspect that needs to be taken into account by new teams considering low altitude exit practice. A good exit takes four people acting together with precision and synchronicity – everyone leaves the plane as a part of the team and communicating with each other. When lunching at 4K, we already start thinking about getting away from the team during a setup in a door mentally shifting the focus from what makes a good exit happen to what needs too be done for safe opening in clear airspace and proper altitude. Yes, some top teams successfully utilize the plan with a lot of tunnel time and a lot of low-altitude exit practice but this doesn’t mean that the same plan will work well for anyone.

[jimmytavino 16]

As pointed out, you are exiting at what is usually breakoff altitude... except you aren't at terminal v.
so you DO have plenty of time to properly accomplish it.
Concentrate completely on the exit,,, and settling it out. Don't let yourself and your teammates feel rushed.... You shouldn't feel rushed when exiting at altitude??? right??? so don't do it here...
Grin, enjoy the last part of your downward acceleration, actually listen to the wind noise and then split....You'll be able to track hard, continue grinning and deploy safely..You won't be getting in the basement.
The temptation to "turn 4 points" Is great......
but you must fight it, grasshopper..
Many hop and pops have gone 15 seconds or more ( and at that point, you are really moving.)and if you start out low (exit) you could finish low..
especially if you take it to terminal.
Be safe have fun.. I like the idea of 4 or 5 exits whenever the ceiling is limiting the altitude... If you get 7 or 8 grand then sure,,, work it !!!But remember, when you're goin' out the door,,,,, it isn't a full altitude jump.
Always improve on and maintain, altitude awareness.
jt

[billvon 2,384]

> You should've had atleast 4-6 points from 4k!

We got 7 points from 4K one summer at Lost Prairie - but the result was not pretty.

[Reginald 0]

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One of my team mates and I got together w/two other members of a 4way team and launched exits and held them for about 6-10 sec then tracked off.

If you got out the door at 4K and held it 10 seconds you were breaking off at 3k? And this is a good idea why? What were the actual exit and break off altitudes?

Personally, my teams breakoff is 4K so even on bad weather days we won't exit below 4.5K. Time enough for a nice exit (5 seconds) and then breakoff at 4K. Track and pull by 3k. We won't try a team exit below 4.5k.

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

[diablopilot 2]

Got your Vutlure, and Double Vulture awards, Bill?

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[AMax 0]

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Personally, my teams breakoff is 4K so even on bad weather days we won't exit below 4.5K. Time enough for a nice exit (5 seconds) and then breakoff at 4K. Track and pull by 3k. We won't try a team exit below 4.5k.

I think I know your front center. How do ya'll keep him in a plane when it is below 4.5K?

[jmpwme 0]

Ben, Alex and Ed have it right. Personally, I prefer nothing lower than 5K for exit training.

How soon people forget - Anybody remember the Dallas Heat situation.

Steve
GT

[AMax 0]

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Ben, Alex and Ed have it right. Personally, I prefer nothing lower than 5K for exit training.

How soon people forget - Anybody remember the Dallas Heat situation.

Steve
GT

Dalas Heat exited lower than 3K

[jmpwme 0]

Thats true - but they were also a very experienced team and jumping at a time where the Stilletto (I think) was the canopy of choice. While nobody is asking about exits from that low of an altitude, the lessons learned by that event are still worth remembering and are relevant to this topic, at least IMHO.

Steve
GT

[AMax 0]

Oh I completely agree.

[Reginald 0]

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Personally, my teams breakoff is 4K so even on bad weather days we won't exit below 4.5K. Time enough for a nice exit (5 seconds) and then breakoff at 4K. Track and pull by 3k. We won't try a team exit below 4.5k.

I think I know your front center. How do ya'll keep him in a plane when it is below 4.5K?

Oh he can go just not with me!

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

[bob.dino 0]

For those of us not in the USA and that weren't around at the time: what happened?

[msmithd8769 0]

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Just wanted some feed back on launching exits at H&P altitudes.

Launching around normal breakoff altitude is fine if everyone is heads up. Launch and leave. If newer and you still tumble once in a while, then I'd hold off launching anything unless at least a little above normal breakoff - 3, 3.5, 4 depending on the team.

{{But I'm originally from an old Cessna DZ, I suspect many would take issue with what some of us consider a 'real' H&P altitude number - and, in today's training world, they are probably right - we break at 3.5, so a 4way launch from 3 or 3.5 doesn't make us nervous at all, a solo H&P from 2 or 2.5 is what I consider normal H&P

But if it jazzes the team, great. Use that tension to your benefit in your training and remember what it feels like when the exits go great under the perceived pressure.

Be safe

I agree. I have no problem with doing 4-way exits from 4 grand; it can be good practice and allow you to concentrate on the exit itself. I too cut my teeth at a 182 DZ many years ago and our normal jump altitude was usually only 8 or 9 grand. So we routinely broke off at 3 on 4-way jumps. That's plenty of time for 4 jumpers to get adequate separation and deploy and be open between 2 to 2500. Granted, it's not something that would probably be recommended for four people with 50 or so jumps just learning RW but for experienced jumpers a 4-way exit at 4 grand gives you plenty of time to fly out the exit, work your slots, and come off the hill and still be able to break off at a safe altitude. However, as has also been said, if you seem to be funneling your exits more often than not then it might be better to give yourself a bit more altitude until you become more consistent.......

_____________________________
"And when the prophet shall arise who appeareth as a bird then the time of the Lord draweth nigh and the flock shall rule the earth."

[rehmwa 2]

It's a whole new world than back when we were all jumping mavericks and furies and cruislites and altitude=7500/8000.

canopies open slower and have more violent mals
students aren't comfortable at lower altitudes
few know how to spot
even belly flyers think 4.5K is separation altitude

I don't begrudge anyone being uncomfortable with lower pack openings anymore. But I still like to tease about it. But the new canopy technologies are pretty good justification (i've adjusted upwards since trading from my sabre to my stiletto). the other stuff? It's just the way it is.

That said, I personally have zero issue with launching and a couple points from 4 with people I'm comfortable with.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[msmithd8769 0]

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It's a whole new world than back when we were all jumping mavericks and furies and cruislites and altitude=7500/8000.

canopies open slower and have more violent mals
students aren't comfortable at lower altitudes
few know how to spot
even belly flyers think 4.5K is separation altitude

I don't begrudge anyone being uncomfortable with lower pack openings anymore. But I still like to tease about it. But the new canopy technologies are pretty good justification (i've adjusted upwards since trading from my sabre to my stiletto). the other stuff? It's just the way it is.

That said, I personally have zero issue with launching and a couple points from 4 with people I'm comfortable with.

You're not kidding; things have definitely changed in the last 15 years especially. I was out of the sport for about 9-10 years (for various reasons) from 1993-2002 and got back into it in '03. Boy were there changes!! ZP canopies and pro-packing for one; pro-packing was just starting to come around in the early 90s. We used to rag on people (good-naturedly of course) who were trying it; we called it "trash packing" back then, remember?

Also everyone now wearing those face-shield astronaut helmets. But I'm still trying to keep the old traditions alive; I still wear my frap hat (except I do have a Velocity helmet that I wear for Birdman jumps). And I jump a 7-cell Eagle (F-111) canopy for my wingsuit jumps which I, of course, flat pack. Boy you should see newer jumpers reaction when they see me flat-packing!! It's like they've discovered some lost species of animal long thought to be extinct!! It's pretty funny... "What is that you're doing??" is usually the first thing they ask me.

But, yeah, I think probably the most unfortunate (saddest?) development would be, in my opinion, the fact that people do not know how to spot anymore as you said. Students today get a cursory (maybe 2-3 minutes) treatment of it in the AFF first jump course and that's pretty much the extent of it. It's a skill that they never develop.

That was never more eveident than at our DZ last season when our Otter was out and we had a couple weekends where we just had to do with Cessnas. Except for a couple or three of us "old-timers" there was really no one on the DZ that had ever done any spotting before to feel comfortable doing it or even attempting it. Needless to say it made for some interesting loads for sure ....

Ahhh, but I digress (too late for that eh?). But 4-way from 4 grand! Cool!!! How many points you think you can do rehmwa? Let's get together sometime and have a little "4 grand Scrambles" ok? We'll really freak some people out!!!!

Mike

_____________________________
"And when the prophet shall arise who appeareth as a bird then the time of the Lord draweth nigh and the flock shall rule the earth."