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mischo

How long do you train for the season?

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Hello 4 way fanatics,
I was wondering how many months do you train per season? For instance, my last team did not start to train until after the Valentines meet. We did two weekends a month until Nats. I would say that we did not peak and could have gone a little further by training a extra month or two. That statement could be a testament of my personality or it could be true. My question is, how long do most teams train with the same four people and how your personal experiences went?
Thank you
Mish

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I would say that we did not peak and could have gone a little further by training a extra month or two



In a normal year you would have had those couple of extra months. Nationals is back this year to the end of October where many think it belongs. The labor day meet really screwed the Northern teams out of about 100 training jumps.

We typically do some casual camps in winter and get started seriously at the Valentine's Meet. That gives a weekend team time for at least 250 training jumps. If you can stay together for 2+ years you will see exponential results. The team that stays together medals together.

Good luck!

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Our team only trains from April on due to New England weather. Way more important than length of training year, in my mind, is length of camps. We amost exclusively had 3 and 4 day camps and even a few 5 day camps. You get so much more out of three day camp than just a weekend. String a five day camp together and I'll bet your team would see at least twice the improvements that you would by adding 4 two day camps over the course of a couple months.

Live my the model: train smarter, not harder.

Also drives me nuts to hear of teams that throw down the cash for 200 or 300 jumps but aren't willing to butch up for some good coaching. If two "equal" teams competed against each other, one doing 300 jumps on their own and one doing 150 w/ solid coaching, the coached team would spend less money, argue less, and go faster... just my two cents

Ben
Mass Defiance 4-wayFS website


sticks!

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Hello all,
I agree with getting coaching. It helps everyones' focus to the tasks at hand. We used a coach almost each training weekend. I currently am looking for a teammates for this season and I like the camp style team. I wouldn't mind training through the winter( southwestern living permits it).
Thanks for the advice.
Mish

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Hello all,
I agree with getting coaching. It helps everyones' focus to the tasks at hand. We used a coach almost each training weekend.
Mish



This brings me to the question what would be the most efficient strategy to use a coach if we only plan to get coaching on lets say half of training camps? The common sense tells to get coaching on every other camp. Alternative would be to work with a coach on first several camps, then train by ourselves and then to get coaching again when it gets closer to the end of the training season.

What do you all say?

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In response to various -

Not only the northern teams got screwed this year. Weather in Socal and AZ was lousy this year. Almost bad enough to put east coast and west coast teams on equal footing.

I have to agree with Ben on the train smarter concept. Longer camps are great. If a team has the cash, use as much coaching as possible and work in the tunnel sessions to hammer out communication and random work. This will allow dollars spent on jumping to focus on exit and blocks. Don't forget your video guy when working on a training plan. I hear so many teams complain about video busts out the door. Remember, this is a 5-way event. More exit practice usually means better video and be sure to include your video person in the decision making process when planning a camp. A perfect exit does you no good if its not on cam.

Be efficient with both your cash and your season strategy. I would suggest having a very experienced coach help a new team plan that out. This plan should be a flexible plan that is revisited as the season progresses.

Most importantly - make sure all team members are on the same page with respect to the plan and the expenses involved.

To Ben - smarter does mean Better. But "Better" means "Better" too!!!!

Steve
GT

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We're in Minnesota so the season is odd -

Plan for next year?

March tunnel Camp, coached - some individual work, but mostly 4 way stop drills. Hopefully tie into some DZ to do real time skydives too (coached?)

- 2 weekends a month (12-20 jumps per weekend, if the weather stinks, we just lose that training)
- 5 meets, + nationals (these counts towards practice jumps)
Maybe a midseason tunnel trip for those that want to
- we don't really have a coach level person in our area so just what we get via meets
- season could start in March with the cessna, but likely one teammate won't show up until the Otter does End of April likely, the Otter leaves before Nationals, so that's the last jumps of the season anyway
- maybe 50% video

so figure 5-6 months, less than 200 jumps as weather can mess with you (sometimes our first team jumps are at our first meet), no coaching, 5 meets + nats. But we were able to consistently break double digits this year with a short tunnel camp and less than 100 team jumps and the ramp ended the season rather strong, low teens look easily in reach right now. But if we transition to the entire dive pool, expect to lose a couple points right off due the higher block density so catch up will depend on precision and mental work. That decision waits until I see if we are training in a new teammate or staying with the current 4...

Being in a year round DZ with tunnels and coaches would be the greatest thing in the world. Except I love skiing.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

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Bill, Are you doing AA or AAA?



I was just going to answer "depends" and then stop.:P

Right now I'm planning AAA (just for the challenge and those blocks are really some of the most fun - if we keep our tail and REALLY train like we committed in our end-of-year team meeting we could maybe break out of the bottom 25%). But if we get a new person to break in, then it would really depend on how well he handles it. One guy on the team will already have likely a harder time than normal with the full continuity mental stuff ("normal" meaning being completely mindless for the first couple months of training, then just half screwed up the rest of the time). Two newer types would be pretty hard to get up to speed with the full dive pool. More block either way will knock us back into single digits for a couple months - that could be very discouraging. (all block dives are about a 10 typ for us, the slower draws can hurt, but I expect a slow down from the mental stuff at first even if those are relatively quick blocks, we have to learn the continuity of a couple slots apiece to keep it moving)

Even our current line up I'm worried about another of my teammates handling the mems and mirs well also, but that's tail and I can work it that this spot has little switching. As for me and my IC, it's hard to shift gears with such little training. I've done it before, but it's been 3 years drilling without, that's a bit of training and reflexes to relearn. We might just completely switch slots to make it easier to learn.

Only one way to find out though. Do it. Take the lumps. get better anyway.

But cripes, the top 5 AA teams this year were averaging 12's+, we were next in the list (not counting 1 meet wonders). That's a lot of sandbagging (note this is tongue in cheek, those teams did great and earned those scores). I think Diveworks was an example of a correct selection of league - going from a 3.? to 12+ averages in just two seasons is impressive and they should have chosen AA at the beginning of this year and stayed throughout. I just don't know the history of the other four teams to really be more than tongue in cheek about the 'sandbag' comment actually. I'm sure they had their reasons too.

We originally set a goal to move on the next season once we were firmly in double digits. Despite if the other teams don't, and despite our team lineup, we should stick to it, I think or risk boredom. Only one way to find out. It'll be a fight to stay out of last place in AAA, but I can always hope for freeflyers to compete in AAA as a joke and score lower than us.....:D:P[:/]

We also have other AA teams in our region that have worked really hard with much less opportunity and big planes to practice. It would be nice to step aside and let them compete on more equal footing. We have a handicap scoring system regionally, but it can't be the same for them. We've never really been about the regional comp, but the national comp (comparing to other AA teams everywhere). Still.

Our regional director says we should stay AA if we plan on nats. Else it doesn't really matter. He has a point, too. But if we do that with the current lineup, I see us peaking in the teens end of season. That would really look crappy competing intermediate with those kinds of numbers.

I'll let you know after our first meet what we decided. I know I want the whole pool and nothing but the whole pool.

Why don't you come up to Minneapolis and build a wind tunnel? That would solve a lot of problems.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

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If I remember correctly, you guys made about 300 training jumps this year. Starting in April gave you only 5 month of training. How many camps did you all do?



We did camps about every other weekend for April May, then took June and July totally off (I was out of the country) and then we did a kick ass August of 14 total training days which entailed two five day camps and two 2-day camps with a few days off inbetween. We also did three tunnel camps total, one of which was in February. 300+ jumps with up to 17 a day.

Ben
Mass Defiance 4-wayFS website


sticks!

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Thanks for sharing, Bill.
Looking at some pretty advanced and accomplished Texas 4-way techs who have done very little or no AA before moving to advanced class, I am also tempted to go AAA as soon as possible, but after all it's up to the whole team to decide. Most likely we will stay in Intermediate which would be a good choice considering our progress during the first year together. In any case, 2006 will probably be my last year in intermediate regardless of how well we do at the end of the season. As far as getting ready for long pages, I believe visualizing on regular basis is a key. Being a weakest flyer, I visualize the whole pool from both my and piece partners slots and I think it helps a lot to keep up with everybody else :P

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We also have other AA teams in our region that have worked really hard with much less opportunity and big planes to practice. It would be nice to step aside and let them compete on more equal footing.


you have my respect for posting this ;)

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Tongue in cheek notwithstanding, having watched all of the Intermediate teams develop over the last few years (Especially Equinox), IMHO there were no sandbaggers on the podium in Intermediate this year.

Steve
GT


__________________________________________________
How many years has Equinox been a team? How many team jumps does Equinox have? How many individual jumps does each team member have?Carolina Ice? Diveworks? Cross Keys? PCs in INT? Come on Alloy!

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I'm sure Mish will chime in, but to my knowledge he's only been jumping with them for the current 05 season. Rob and Kevin are the original members and added Don last year, and Mish this year.

They trained hard and their efforts paid off. I don't think they jumped as much as the other local teams either; and that's my observation. I'm there everyday as a full-time instructor. When not training we recruited them as adjunct/weekend instructors. They did great at Nats.

Congratulations to them and all others whom reached their competition goals. B|

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Intermediate teams develop over the last few years (Especially Equinox), IMHO there were no sandbaggers



I don't doubt it, but it does depend on your perspective. Looking back at Equinox, they started the season with the first meet an 8.something. That's clearly a season start in AA. IMO.

The bar is being raised, unless a point average cutoff at the start of the season is establisheed for moving on (an idea I like, but not cut and dried in any way), people need to get used to each class climbing up from year to year. I very much like the idea of a standard jump used to qualify a team for the lowest class they may compete in.

Compare league in-class scoring over the last few years, it's definitely not consistent. A AA average that would have made a medalist just a couple years ago isn't even top 10 in '05. This is something that needs to be defined. It's highly frustrating for teams with short seasons.

Funny though about training resources, I know a very talented AAA team that had a pro-coach. they were missing the coach at one meet and were in a panic because they couldn't even engineer their own dives. So there is tradeoffs with doing it on your own vs having the best of training resources at your local dz every weekend. (;)I'd prefer to have those resources if I had to choose though)

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

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Hello all,
I agree with Bill, the bar had been raised. I am one of the sandbaggers ;), so I can understand both sides of the commentary. I am sure that when the season started we were starting at zero. One new member(me) and two members switching slots. So regardless of how long Rob and Kevin had been on the same team, they were now starting over as piece partners. Ice I believe was together for a while as well. I skydived in VA for many years before I moved out here. I can assure you there is a world of difference. The level of coaching and commitment to teams is a day and night comparison. People spend a year of my wage on a team. The tunnel has also made everyone a better flier(except me of course).
Think about this, The Average for top six Open was 19.9. The best of the rest was 15.5. Advanced was 14.3. Intermediate was at a 12.7. Video busts stopped intermediate from being in the 14s(not on our end Shindig was flawless!) I didn't compete in advanced but it appeared to be a technical slow draw. We probably would not have been competitive even if we had trained the entire year with the entire pool. I am not making excuses, just stating my opinions. Personally I can't wait until next year. I think alot of teams are going to go for the medals in all the classes and we will see who trains the hardest and wins the slots on the podium! So do you think that a 10 month training schedule is excessive?
:)P.S. I have been reduced to using emoticons!
Mish

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Steve - going from an 8.? to finish at 13 is phenominal. You guys had a great season.

So the question is, if you're sticking together, are you moving up?

I'll set up a poll, maybe we'll get something interesting here?

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

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Been discussed many times. IMHO this issue will always remain unless there is a clear cut-off criteria. People have different mindsets and different goals. If you look at the history, there are basically two kinds of non-professional teams. Some bit up AA to death until they get a medal (which is fine with me personally, I am not going to compete with them during my entire life and I don't mind being behind in the beginning of my 4-way progression). The others move up as soon as they can. Because of my personal goals and views I have more sympathy for second category.

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How many years has Equinox been a team? How many team jumps does Equinox have? How many individual jumps does each team member have?Carolina Ice? Diveworks? Cross Keys? PCs in INT? Come on Alloy!



I don't think a number of years on the team is a valid criteria.
If you look at 2004 scores, Equinox and Divewerkz
averaged at Nationals less than 10 - 9.7 (Equinox) and 8.7 (Divewerkz) What's wrong with them doing Intermediate in 2005?

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