Going low on formation - stay or track away?

[nael 0]

When I was just off student status I did a 4 way jump that went bad at about 8k. One person went low (It wasnt me I swear!) and hung around below us for the rest of the jump. When we landed I heard one of the guys on the jump (with about 200 jumps) yelling at the guy who went low, telling him he should have tracked away then and there (at 8k!). I went over and asked why it was a good idea to risk tracking into the group before or after us when we could otherwise just keep an eye on him and avoid him at break off height. We got into a discussion about it, and I backed down because I was new and figured this guy must know better than me. I asked an instructor the next day and he backed up what I had said. Seems people of all experience levels are not quite sure what they should do in this situation, which is scary, because it can happen quite easily on any jump.

www.TerminalSports.com.auAustralia's largest skydive gear store

[tdog 0]

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Just want to clarify this for myself. You say you ALWAYS know the direction of jumprun?

Not that the question was asked to me, but at my home DZ, the answer is yes... Due to the forces of nature, (being near by a international airport and the outs in one direction being challenging with public relations), etc, jump run is always the same direction... Parallel to the runway... Always... Makes tracking dives real easy to plan.

[popsjumper 2]

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Just want to clarify this for myself. You say you ALWAYS know the direction of jumprun?

Always...
1. Look for yourself when you get out.
2. Talk to the pilot.
3. Talk to organizers.
(not necessarily in logical or priority order.)

When would you NOT know the direction of jump run?
I must be missing something...

Back on topic...
Stay close, but not under the formation, so everyone knows where you are at break time.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Rick 67]

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Just want to clarify this for myself. You say you ALWAYS know the direction of jumprun?

I was taught early on to always know the direction of jump run
maybe because I usually float I have never found it to be a problem but even diving how hard is it to look at the ground on your way out the door to get a fix on the jump run direction?

You can't be drunk all day if you don't start early!

[mdrejhon 8]

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It's a lot easier to get yourself perpendicular to the jump run when you are doing so straight out of the plane. If you are in a formation, although the organiser will try their hardest to remain on heading along flight-line, but formations can turn, so you may not know what perpendicular to jump run is anymore if you have gone low.

People are taught differently, but right now I am taught to be aware of the jump run direction at exit.

So I try to quickly look at the jump run direction through the window before I exit. I can now recognize landmarks such as the forest to the north and the rivers to the south, as well as familiar farmhouses surrounding the runways even if I can't see the runways.

I am also now taught to turn 90 degrees then cup to go up, if I am very low (too low to easily see the formation, ie more than 20 feet low, and easier to look up by turning head to the side), That way, I don't accidentally float forward under the formation when I try to cup, since many RW newbies have a tendancy to shift forward or backwards when they cup. However, I haven't gone that low before, so I haven't had the opportunity to test that out. I am a floaty guy and I almost always float above, not below. Getting much better at fallrate control now after a lot of RW jumps this weekend.

Please note, different dropzones (or different instructors) have different rules I bet...this is just simply what I have been taught so far.

(Note: Earlier, I think I mentioned my answer would be to track early. I take back that newbie answer. Now I would look for the formation above me to the best of my knowledge, slide at least a bit away to give some horizontal separation so I don't go underneath the formation, and then keep watching the formation while cupping like hell until my own breakoff altitude and then find my own clear air at my own breakoff altitude, paying attention to people above and to sides, in addition to watching the air in the direction ahead and below that I'm tracking to.)

[billvon 2,396]

>When for example 50+ friends are doing their best to make a good
>skydive you do not just track away.

On loads smaller than about 16 I would agree. But beyond 20 or so (i.e. when you have the whole plane) often the plan _is_ to start tracking. At the 300 way, for example, the rule was try to get up for 10 seconds, then take off and track to 2000 feet. With larger formations, the red zone is often too large to avoid and/or too far to get to safely. Plus, if you're the only group in the plane(s), there's little risk of running into another group.

The key here is coordination with everyone else beforehand. 8 ways - 10 ways - 16 ways - can be done with a quick debrief, but 20+ requires longer dirt dives and better planning to cover items like this.

>You are looking all the time to the formation and float as strong as you can.

I agree, but wanted to point out that you should never look _directly_ at the formation. That brings your head up and your hips down, and you just fall faster. Much better to turn sideways, drop your head and look up.

[Zoltan 0]

I do not have experience with 300+ ways so I accept your point.
On the 50-150 ways I have never been instructed to track away before the agreed altitude.
I think that the difference is that in the world team you can expect flat track from anybody, but on a smaller bigways you do not want anybody to "track" down and pull on 4K.
The point might be that these rules are not written in marble... different size, different skills might require different rules.

> you should never look _directly_ at the formation.

:) Of course... I mean that looking to any direction should not changed the body position. I tell to all students I jump with that they should look with their eyes and not with their body. Sideway setup works in most cases, that is true.

[goose491 0]

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By the way, your grammar's fine. "Then," "than," who cares as long as you get your point across, right?

haha, I don't think ol' devil meant any harm. But in the scentence:

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I still prefer to fight for being the part of a formation then/than giving up and tracking away.

"Then" means you will eventually give up. whereas,
"Than" means you won't.

This thread was refered to in an incidents thread about a collision between a deploying canopy and a freefalling jumper.

I'll add for the sake of redundancy, that you should always, always, always do your best to keep with the formation. Plan the dive and dive the plan right? I don't ever recall tracking off early during a dirt dive .

Seriously though. I think it's clear enough that there is but one answer. Still, there is one thing that hasn't been mentioned about if/when you give up and leave early. That's the unnecessary confusion of the jumpers who may very well be looking specifically for you at breakoff. When I'm on a dive with a decent number of bodies, I take note of who is supposed to be on the same side of the formation as me. As I turn and track, I take attendance. If someone is missing, that's when I'm thinking he/she must be directly above or below me.

Nick

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[rehmwa 2]

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I think it's clear enough that there is but one answer.

So Nick - Here's a scenario. You're on an invitational 100 way - the LO instructs everyone that the 'plan' for someone going low to track away after trying for about 5 seconds - track like hell to 2000 and open -

Completely out of character, you go low and after a few seconds realize you can't get back up.

Do you follow instructions and get away?
Or do you do what you think is right (always, always, always do your best to keep with the formation) even though it directly conflicts with the LO's direction?

or, before the jump - Do you decline to attend at all because you don't think the plan is safe?

I see one wrong answer here - staying near the formation.

Me? I have the same personal opinion that we should stay close until breakoff too. But I follow the LO plan, despite my personal opinion, because that is what everybody on the dive agreed to and I don't want to do anything unexpected with that many bodies in the air.

I agree we "dive the plan", but unless I'm organizing, I don't define the plan, the LO does. If I think the LO is wrong and it's a matter of safety? I choose to jump elsewhere.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[goose491 0]

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So Nick - Here's a scenario. You're on an invitational 100 way - the LO instructs everyone that the 'plan' for someone going low to track away after trying for about 5 seconds - track like hell to 2000 and open

Fair enough. Of course big big ways are a bit of another story than your average skydive. But at this point I raise my hand and ask that if there are 100 people trying to get to their slots from wherever they may be... why should I be any different? It's not like I'm going to hang out directly underneath them.

Of course, on an invitational 100 way, I don't think there will be other groups right? If no, tracking -like hell- away and deploying at 2000 would get me further from the centre of the formation then anyone actually there could get... and there is no chance of me flying into another groups airspace. Upon discussing this with the group, I may chose this option. But this is clearly the exception to the rule (as all rules have exceptions yeah?) I state "there is but one answer", for the educational purpose of this thread. It must be made clear that this is not an option on a regular skydive.

If there are other groups, perhaps a few tandems in one of our planes, then I have a big problem with that and would suggest sticking with the formation until planned breakoff. I would pull myself from the big way otherwise yes.

The key though, is discussion. I won't just follow the LO suggestions if I don't agree. I will raise my point, either to change the plan or be convinced otherwise. Never would I act differently from what was agreed upon on the ground.

How does that sound?

Nick

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[rehmwa 2]

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How does that sound?

Sounds pretty good. Your perspective is from having multiple groups on a single pass (normal weekend skydiving). I was only thinking about big ways.

Now I have to go back in this thread and see what the original poster was talking to. When I hear 'go low' I automatically assume big ways. Small stuff, I always want to know where everybody is.

Edit: Original poster had 72 jumps so this is not about big ways (at first anyway). When I organize for newbies of this level, I tell them to stay where they can see the rest of us and where I can see them. We all track at the same altitude. I had one guy in a 5 way that couldn't stay close to the other 4, and he damn near killed someone else opening in a "surprise" location (uncontrolled drift in one direction, then he felt he needed to track at the end back toward the group center. He was sent back to 2 ways until he could learn to hold position. Stick around on little ways, no need to go tracking into the next group or back into your group. Big ways, know what the LO wants, do what the LO wants, then we all are on the same page.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[goose491 0]

Another thing I forgot to mention about that LO's 'plan' you presented: What if I'm not the only one?

What if -totally out of character - I go low, following the 'plan', I take off tracking like a mo-fo afer trying for 5 seconds with no success... I become a speed demon perpendicular the flightline, planning to dump at 2000... now what if someone else does the exact same thing?

And I mean EXACT same thing. Following the same path I took. Planning on a continued track until dumping at 2000... The only thing that will disrupt those plans for him/her is going to be my deploying canopy in their path.

Just thought it worth noting. Albeit the chances are slim... about as slim as the chances of me ending up low in the first place (lol ) but still.

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[rehmwa 2]

Don't matter, the plan is the plan and that's what we all should expect because everyone agreed to it. At least you are in a 2 way under this hypothetical.

(One thing - for a great big way "perp to the flightline" is definitely NOT required and much more dangerous - that only gives you two directions to fly. track out from big ways away from the center in all directions - remember, it's the only thing in the sky, no other groups. Chances are NOT slim that there are more than a couple people low on any big way - so perp to flightline is a horrible thing for the LO to brief - and if they did that on a 100 way, I'd likely sit that one out.)

In any case, always keep your eyes open, big BIG waveoff. But that is a given.

later

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[goose491 0]

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Don't matter, the plan is the plan and that's what we all should expect because everyone agreed to it.

Well then I guess the best answer is not to "agree" to an unsafe plan. I know I said I'd of considered it but upon further consideration... I would not agree to this unsafe "plan".

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At least you are in a 2 way under this hypothetical.

Could find yourself in a gift-wrapped 2 way under this hypothetical. And it'll only be a 2 way if both jumpers remain in one piece after the collision. You say: "Don't matter"... but it matters to me.

On a side note, I find it hard to believe that anyone on an invitational 100 way would not be able to float back up to formation level.

That "plan" sucks.

Stick with the formation, if you can't get back up to it, stay out to the side and keep trying. Keep the formation in sight until planned breakoff and then, breakoff as planned.

I'm sticking with my original. I would pull myself off the dive if this was the "Plan".

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[rehmwa 2]

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I'm sticking with my original. I would pull myself off the dive if this was the "Plan".

Your original plan was to just do your thing despite the LO direction. This is a shift for a big way situation. It's a good change (at least in my perception of your notes).

That's a good answer. If you can't agree to act in a predictable manner as agreed upon by the group. Don't participate. Great answer

You misquote me when you go to the 'don't matter' quote without acknowledging the whole post. Also, you did it wrong when you restricted to the perpendicular to the flight line part.

If you've been on really big stuff, the divergence of adjacent people does not happen fast during tracking. It's similar to your 2-way crowding. Keep your eyes open, clear your air, wave off big. Also, on really big ways, people go low all the time. That's why it gets debriefed on what we should all do to avoid surprises.

Remember, I agree with your position and when I'd organize, I'd brief it your way, except for the part about bucking the plan of the LO on a really big way.

BTW - most LOs I've been with have had a "try to get in by x-000 feet, then get away". x-000 has always been around breakoff of the first wave. So we aren't in disagreement at all.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[goose491 0]

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Your original plan was to just do your thing despite the LO direction.

No, I don't recall saying that... you presented the big way scenario and asked me if I'd just do my thing regarless of his poor plan of action. If you read my answer, I said I would never act differently in the air, then what was agreed upon on the ground.

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That's a good answer. If you can't agree to act in a predictable manner as agreed upon by the group. Don't participate. Great answer

You tease me now. Good on you.

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you did it wrong when you restricted to the perpendicular to the flight line part.

That much is true, I typed "perpendicular the flightline" but I know that it's 180 from the centre on bigways.

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Remember, I agree with your position and when I'd organize, I'd brief it your way,

I remember. And you'd do well to do so.

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except for the part about bucking the plan of the LO on a really big way.

Oops, we were doing well there until this part. Never said I'd be a cowboy doing my own thing. I said I'd raise my point to the LO and the group. That I'd consider the "plan" presented given that there are no other groups. That I'd pull myself from the skydive if I didn't deem the "group plan" to be safe.

Most importantly, I said I would never act differently in the sky then what was agreed upon on the ground. I defy you to find where I have typed otherwise.

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... So we aren't in disagreement at all.

Except that you've stated I would blatantly disregard an agreement I have with 99 fellow divers on a skydive with me.

Or that it "don't matter" if you leave early because you give up, track like a mo-fo, find yourself nearing two grand, and see a canopy blossom right in front of you because someone did just what you did two second earlier.

Let's explore that one shall we? I guess you could dump right away... and hope there wasn't a third jumper (out of 100) that couldnt' get in, chose to give up, and tracked in your direction too?

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[rehmwa 2]

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Let's explore that one shall we?

Naw, let's not. In the end, it appears we're on the same page. I did read you wrong when I thought you'd 'cowboy' on a big way - you never said it right out, but the inferrence was there. Other than that, this is going nowhere as "that's not what I said" "yes it is" discussion are tedious and not constructive.

blues

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[goose491 0]

Right on and well said. Spoken like a true gent. lol.

This thread sure did get me a thinkin' though.

Thanks,

Nick

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[rehmwa 2]

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This thread sure did get me a thinkin' though.

no it didn't
yes it did
this isn't debate, this is just contradiction
no it isn't

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[kallend 1,623]

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I think it's clear enough that there is but one answer.

So Nick - Here's a scenario. You're on an invitational 100 way - the LO instructs everyone that the 'plan' for someone going low to track away after trying for about 5 seconds - track like hell to 2000 and open -

Completely out of character, you go low and after a few seconds realize you can't get back up.

Do you follow instructions and get away?
Or do you do what you think is right (always, always, always do your best to keep with the formation) even though it directly conflicts with the LO's direction?

or, before the jump - Do you decline to attend at all because you don't think the plan is safe?

I see one wrong answer here - staying near the formation.

Me? I have the same personal opinion that we should stay close until breakoff too. But I follow the LO plan, despite my personal opinion, because that is what everybody on the dive agreed to and I don't want to do anything unexpected with that many bodies in the air.

I agree we "dive the plan", but unless I'm organizing, I don't define the plan, the LO does. If I think the LO is wrong and it's a matter of safety? I choose to jump elsewhere.

That scenario has the flavor of "what happens if an irresistable force meets an immovable object".

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rehmwa 2]

Agreed. So what would your choice be if you couldn't get the plan changed?

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[kallend 1,623]

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Agreed. So what would your choice be if you couldn't get the plan changed?

I'd jump and not go low. Like always.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rehmwa 2]

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Agreed. So what would your choice be if you couldn't get the plan changed?

I'd jump and not go low. Like always.

Yup, and take a count of everyone who went low during the dive to calibrate just how paranoid I want to be during the track and pull phase. But I'm normally pretty paranoid during that part anyway (head on a swivel, etc). It's amazing how fast you can track when motivated by sheer terror

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[kallend 1,623]

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Agreed. So what would your choice be if you couldn't get the plan changed?

I'd jump and not go low. Like always.

Yup, and take a count of everyone who went low during the dive to calibrate just how paranoid I want to be during the track and pull phase. But I'm normally pretty paranoid during that part anyway (head on a swivel, etc). It's amazing how fast you can track when motivated by sheer terror

You got it! My goal, which I often but not always achieve, is to out-track everyone else on the skydive (I can't out-track Rook Nelson or Larry Henderson, for example). But you have to try or you certainly won't achieve it.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[goose491 0]

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This thread sure did get me a thinkin' though.

no it didn't
yes it did
this isn't debate, this is just contradiction
no it isn't

I don't know if you are Insinuating that I wasn't thinking... or if you are hinting that I was arguing for the sake of arguing.

Either way, this thread did get me thinking.

...thinking there are quite a few more experienced jumpers than I would have anticipated who believe leaving a dive early is a good idea.

And I wasn't being sarcastic when I called you a gent.

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!